Inverters... what are they?

[Cirrob]

My wife and are new to RVs and just purchased a 2017 white hawk 28 dsbh. I've installed two 6 volt golf cart batteries, and we've used the rig 5 times so far. Previously we used a pop up camper, and enjoyed boondocking. However, with this new rig, there are much more convenience options, but some that aren't available while boondocking: 110 being one of them.

So I am considering getting an inverter, but know next to nothing about them. It's my assumption (no research yet) that in the process of inverting dc to ac, it consumes quite a bit of juice while in use. Is that true? Also, will installing one make all my 110 outlets work, or just provide me an outlet for use?

Any help, or direction, in my research is very much appreciated.

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[mike837go]

Yes, they are not the most efficient of devices. There are losses.

No, you cannnot just plug your RV into an inverter that is connected to the RV's batteries: The converter will fire up and attempt to charge the batteries that you are drawing from to run the inverter. A properly engineered transfer switch is needed.

[mike837go]

We boondock all the time.

I have experimented with inverters several times and tried to make it work.

In my opinion, if you need significant amounts of 120VAC, run a generator or assemble copious amounts of solar panels.

The number of AH in a battery get used up real fast when running a television. Don't even start to consider heating appliances like a coffee maker or hair dryer!

[Cirrob]

Originally Posted by mike837go

We boondock all the time.

I have experimented with inverters several times and tried to make it work.

In my opinion, if you need significant amounts of 120VAC, run a generator or assemble copious amounts of solar panels.

The number of AH in a battery get used up real fast when running a television. Don't even start to consider heating appliances like a coffee maker or hair dryer!

This is my concern. I have generators. And while inverter types (2 Honda 2000), id rather rely on my solar during the day and let the kids watch tv at night after the fire, from the batteries. This way I can avoid listening to the hum of the gens, and at some national parks, bypass the generator hours and still enjoy some 110. But if it's going to chew through my juice at an alarming rate, I'd rather not bother.

I'd really like to brew some coffee in the morning (I'm up at 3 am... old habit from the service) and not have to boil water. And, as I said, like to let the kids watch some tv so the adults can have some time. Not sure why they don't simply install 12 volt tvs in 12 volt RVs. Makes no sense to me

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[mike837go]

First some nomenclature issues:

An inverter is a device that takes low voltage DC and delivers 120VAC. They come in a wide range of capacities. From 20Watts to over 3,000.

An inverter-equipped genset is an engine turning a generator that uses electronics to produce the 120VAC at 60Hz rather than relying on the engine running at a specific speed.

Your last post seems to have muddled the two Very Different devices.

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12VDC TV's haven't been produced in many years (I have one (4" b&w) in my attic) because inverters are so darned cheep.

If you are looking for a handful of hours of quiet from sunset to bedtime, then an inverter that can run a 20" TV plus a DVD player (250Watts should be enough) then you probably won't have any problems.

Just make sure to run the generator about an hour or so in the afternoon to top-up the batteries for the night.

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Still, forget any kind of heating appliaces that are sourced from the batteries. Plan their use around genset run times.

Or read up on how to use a stovetop percolator.

Personally, I get SWMBO out of bed by brewing a fresh pot each morning. Almost nothing beats filling the TT with the smell of perking coffee!

[bankr63]

There are still tons of 12V TV's around. We just call them tablets now. Get a nice tablet and download a few movies or favorite television shows from Netflix before you go. If you can't figure out how, get the kids to do it - they know how. Charging uses a very minimal amount of battery power during the day through a USB charger, and the tablet will run for several hours on battery. If you have two kids, get two tablets - no more arguments about who's watching what. Note that this also works great if the road trip time is long to the CG.

The cool thing about this is the kids can take it into their bunk if you and the wife really want some quality time.

ETA: another low power solution is a laptop computer. I have a 17" laptop whose screen is almost as big as the set in our little TT and is of much better quality. If in need of a charge, I have a small handheld inverter that plugs into a 12V outlet, I don't use this option often as I prefer my tablet.

[Mustang65]

What is the Ah rating on your battery(s)?

How much solar do you have?

It will be a little easier to figure out what you can or can't do.

Don

My Registry

RVing with SOLAR

[Cirrob]

2, 225 ah energizer from costco. I have one 100 watt renogy suitcase and two additional 100 watt renogy panels I'll be mounting to the roof.

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[bansai]

Modern flat screen draw a lot less power than maybe people are thinking.. I run mine off a small inverter no prob. As for coffee.. I can't find a legit reason to not use a percolator or French press.. the coffee is better that way anyway imho.

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[Dustdevil]

Originally Posted by mike837go

First some nomenclature issues:

An inverter is a device that takes low voltage DC and delivers 120VAC. They come in a wide range of capacities. From 20Watts to over 3,000.

An inverter-equipped genset is an engine turning a generator that uses electronics to produce the 120VAC at 60Hz rather than relying on the engine running at a specific speed.

Your last post seems to have muddled the two Very Different devices.

----------

12VDC TV's haven't been produced in many years (I have one (4" b&w) in my attic) because inverters are so darned cheep.

If you are looking for a handful of hours of quiet from sunset to bedtime, then an inverter that can run a 20" TV plus a DVD player (250Watts should be enough) then you probably won't have any problems.

Just make sure to run the generator about an hour or so in the afternoon to top-up the batteries for the night.

---------------

Still, forget any kind of heating appliaces that are sourced from the batteries. Plan their use around genset run times.

Or read up on how to use a stovetop percolator.

Personally, I get SWMBO out of bed by brewing a fresh pot each morning. Almost nothing beats filling the TT with the smell of perking coffee!

This is it right here. At its essence, an inverter takes either existing AC power at some voltage, rectifies it to DC power, then re-inverts the power into phased AC at specific voltage (typically 110 or 115 single phase on commercial inverters for RVs, at 60Hz frequency). This is done for a very specific output, usually measured in watts, depending upon what you plan to run with it. When Jayco built inverters into the first-generation Seneca like ours, they planned to only operate the front tv and DVD home theater system and related speakers with it. I would not attempt to supply every outlet in the RV with 110 from the inverter, as it would require a very large capacity unit, which would potentially bring down the batteries in a very short period of time. Usually, there is already a specific purpose in mind for an inverter, and it's a narrowly-defined purpose with limited wattage requirements. Some modern RVs do supply a coffee maker or outlet intended for a coffee maker as part of the purpose. But that is a load that would certainly draw down the batteries very quickly. On a cold morning, after a cold night wherein your furnace and blower were operating often, you might not have the battery power left to actually complete that pot of coffee without running the generator anyway.

It's a personal preference thing, but we rarely use the inverter in our Seneca. It is likely we will use it more if and when grandkids enter the picture, but that will be limited. Our intent when we go to camp in our RV is to actually avoid TV and that sort of stuff unless it's raining outside.

[crumgater]

I'd say stick with the small screens (tablets) for late-night viewing and skip the inverter... just my two-cents.

But, you could calculate the amps needed for your entertainment needs and see how much battery juice you need. You might want to double-up your batteries if you go that route. The inverter will only power the outlets you wire up to it, not the whole RV.

When not plugged in (prior to having an on-board genny in the Seneca), I opted for Starbucks Via coffee... just had to boil some water on the stove. I liked it better than any percolated variety (which took way to long to make), and it was ready for drinking much quicker than even the french press.

[Subaru297]

It is a bit of a fallacy that a coffee maker or some high draw device uses all your battery capacity. Consider a 1500W coffee maker that is only on for 8 minutes to make a pot of coffee.

1500watts/12volts = 125amps

125amps/60minutes*8minutes = 16.7 Ah of capacity This is not a large % of a 225Ah battery.

The bigger issue, in my opinion, is the high amperage. Trying to pull those amps out of only two 6 volts will likely lead to voltage drop and the inverter cutting out. A four battery bank would probably handle the draw much better. Another issue is the cost of a 2000Watt inverter is rather high.

As far as a modern LCD television they draw a very small amount of power. 50-70Watts. That would be about 6Ah of capacity used per hour of an available 112Ah (useable capacity). In other words you could watch TV for 18 hours before reaching 50% charge state.

Large inverters do have some draws all by themselves of around 2-3 amps even if nothing is drawing power from them but you can get some pretty efficient inverters as well. A small 300Watt inverter is more than enough to run a TV and charge some devices.

There are many ways to wire them in including providing power to your entire trailer or just powering a single outlet.

And with 300Watts of solar you are already ahead of the game. If you want to add an inverter to watch TV there is no reason not to. If you want to make coffee as well you will need a bigger battery bank and a large enough inverter.

I would also recommend getting a battery monitor so you can see what state they are in at all times and adjust your usage appropriately.

Cheers

[Subaru297]

To add a bit to the above I looked up the Trojan T105 specs and they do list a 75amp discharge rating and one thing I didn't account for above is the capacity of the battery get less at higher discharge rates.
At 75amps the capacity is only 115 minutes and at 25 amps the capacity is 447 minutes. So almost a factor of 4!
Given that, trying to pull 125amps from a battery for only 8 minutes will probably take significantly more capacity than the 16.7Ah I wrote above.

So adding in an additional two batteries does two things. It adds capacity but it also reduces the amps that each set of batteries has to provide. Rather than the original set of batteries having to provide all 125amps each pair now only have to provide 63 amps.

Hope that all makes sense.

Cheers

[Cirrob]

Thank you!

I've opted just for a simple 300w inverter for nights and the tv. Will continue to boil coffee

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[mike837go]

Originally Posted by Cirrob

Thank you!

I've opted just for a simple 300w inverter for nights and the tv. Will continue to boil coffee

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Good choices for conserving battery power.

Enjoy the glamping!

[Cirrob]

One last question. Which one or type to get. My tv area has a 12 volt plug, but all the 300 watt investors that could use it aren't really true pure sine. And I have read several times that non true sine can damage electronics like a television. Any recommendations?

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[Subaru297]

One of the better ones you can get would be a morningstar

SureSine - Morningstar Corporation

But you will have to do some wiring. I use a much cheaper 600w GoPower one that is working fine for us.

There are lots available on Amazon that have a cigarette lighter adapter.

https://www.amazon.com/MADPOWER-400W...inverter&psc=1

You probably won't be able to power much from a cigarette lighter though as the wiring is probably only suitable for around 120 to 150 watts. 10ish amps.

That is fine for a TV but if you want to power more stuff you will want to wire it directly to the battery with sufficient gauge wire.