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Old 10-07-2016, 07:56 PM   #1
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Batteries!

I added two group J-185 batteries for unlimited (almost) dry camping. I built a unistrut frame that hangs from the coach frame so there is no weight on the storage compartment floor or walls. The coach batteries are rated at 160 minutes at 25 amps and these are rated at 420 minutes at 25 amps EACH!
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Old 10-07-2016, 08:18 PM   #2
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Nice battery!

Do You have these batteries on different charging circuits?

Don
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Old 10-07-2016, 08:22 PM   #3
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Right now they are in parallel with the house batteries and I've been charging them with a 10 amp charger. I ordered a Genius charger with a 25 amp output and will isolate the FullRivers when I use that charger.
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Old 10-07-2016, 09:40 PM   #4
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Sorry to be negative but having those drastically different batteries hooked in parallel with each other is not a good idea. Hopefully you kill the interstates and not the Fullrivers. They do look like very nice batteries!

Please just eliminate the old Interstates.
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Old 10-07-2016, 09:47 PM   #5
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Subaru, I've been an electrician for 33 years and manage projects for Boeing, Amazon, T-Mobile etc... I design and build electrical distribution systems and maybe ...just maybe I know a thing or two about what electrons do? Thanks for your unfounded negativity.
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Old 10-07-2016, 10:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
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Subaru, I've been an electrician for 33 years and manage projects for Boeing, Amazon, T-Mobile etc... I design and build electrical distribution systems and maybe ...just maybe I know a thing or two about what electrons do? Thanks for your unfounded negativity.
Well, I'm not an electrician and I don't know much about the distribution systems...

So, before I attempt something similar, did you do anything special?
In general, we laymen have heard that - when connecting batteries in parallel - they should be identical.

Is that incorrect?

thanks
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Old 10-08-2016, 06:05 AM   #7
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Vicr, this is a truly nice, clean installation! You indicated a future new charger, hopefully it can charge two independent battery banks. This is a good looking setup. Question, why did you not take in consideration using AGM batteries instead of the wet cell choice?
Regards, Benno

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Old 10-08-2016, 06:37 AM   #8
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Vicr, Please ignore the last question. I went on to the Fullriver site and noticed that the DC series are AGM batteries. Excellent choice, the proper rewarding way to go for deep cycle batteries in a RV!
Regards, Benno

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Old 10-08-2016, 11:00 AM   #9
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pconroy, batteries when being charged are getting voltage supplied to them. A battery doesn't care that a different battery connected to it is of a different type. The larger batteries will take a longer time to charge to capacity but if I disconnect the two battery banks and charge them separately, which is what I will do with the 25 amp charger, then both battery banks can be charged to their capacity and connected together. Any potential voltage differences will be negligable and the two battery banks will equalize.
Benno, Yes I chose the AGM's because there is no ventilation in that storage compartment.
Also, just so everyone knows the Interstate batteries were brand new when I installed the FullRivers. Sorry if I don't take criticism well but I know what I am doing and am not one to post on the internet unless I have factual information. I didn't spend $1200 on a battery installation to do it wrong!
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:04 AM   #10
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I would keep the batteries separated from each other until you split the circuits up. The following will give you some of the basics as to why. You paid good money for those batteries.

Here is a response from Optima battery (Trojan and USBattery are the same), regarding connecting batteries of different Ah in either series or parallel. The voltage will be fine, it is the characteristics of each battery that causes the problems when put together in a circuit (charging and discharging). In most cases one will overcharge or undercharge depending on the internal resistance of the individual battery. If you leave them connected eventually the newer higher Ah batteries will deteriorate to the state of the other lower Ah batteries(or older batteries). The discharge is also different for different Ah batteries. Same hold true for batteries of the same Ah rating but different dates... internal resistance is different.

You spent good money for your batteries, you will want them to last a few years (mine are on year 4... may get another couple years out of them). Never been discharged below 12.0VDC, water levels checked monthly, and the SOLAR keeps them topped off perfectly.

Don
Good luck with your project... I love the tray you built. I also enclosed the proper battery connections for series and parallel to get the most out of your batteries (of the same Ah ratings) .
Attached Thumbnails
BATTERY - Charging different Ah batteries.jpg   BATTERY - Connecting Multiple Batteries -1.jpg   BATTERY - Connecting Multiple Batteries -2.jpg   BATTERY - Connecting Multiple Batteries -3.jpg   BATTERY - Connecting Multiple Batteries -4.jpg  

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Old 10-08-2016, 11:14 AM   #11
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I haven't installed my battery selector switch yet Mustang. Thanks.
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Old 10-08-2016, 11:23 AM   #12
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Keep us informed with some more pictures as your project progresses.

If you would like to look at my actual battery test results (using a Wind Turbine dump load resistor (15Amp load)) on my original Interstate 84Ah batteries (4+ years old) you may be surprised at what the CURRENT actual Ah output of the (OLD) batteries are.

Click on Battery Test and scroll down to the "THE RESULTS ARE IN (Battery Test) " in the RVing with SOLAR Social Group
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:31 PM   #13
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I have received my Genius battery charger and my battery selector switch and should be able to get them all installed this weekend.
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Old 11-07-2016, 02:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
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I have received my Genius battery charger and my battery selector switch and should be able to get them all installed this weekend.
Keep us updated and project pictures would be great

Don
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Old 11-08-2016, 08:38 AM   #15
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Mustang:I don't profess to be a battery expert but I have done some reading over the years to get a better understanding. From an electrical point of view I agree with the report you have provided. In addition to the issues brought up in the report I would think one should also consider circulating currents draining the batteries prematurely due to the different internal impedances of the non-identical batteries. All the issues brought up here may be theoretical (requiring development of Thevenin and Norton equivalent circuits and impedance diagrams we engineers learned way way back in college days) and insignificant but if I were trying to build the backup capacity Vicr is after I would use identical batteries or at least use a series connected configuration.
Vicr: Keep us posted on how this works out. I am curious to see.
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:04 AM   #16
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I learn something new each time I come to this forum.
I had always learned that I shouldn't mix different battery brands, sizes, or Amp hours.
Today I learned that none of that is true and also that it is fine to mix wet cell and AGM batteries together.
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Old 11-08-2016, 09:12 AM   #17
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Mustang:I don't profess to be a battery expert but I have done some reading over the years to get a better understanding. From an electrical point of view I agree with the report you have provided. In addition to the issues brought up in the report I would think one should also consider circulating currents draining the batteries prematurely due to the different internal impedances of the non-identical batteries. All the issues brought up here may be theoretical (requiring development of Thevenin and Norton equivalent circuits and impedance diagrams we engineers learned way way back in college days) and insignificant but if I were trying to build the backup capacity Vicr is after I would use identical batteries or at least use a series connected configuration.
Vicr: Keep us posted on how this works out. I am curious to see.
For reference on this forum, getting deep down into the electrical reasoning behind a lot of things is way past the average RVer, even past me. You or I may understand Kirchhoff's Law, but I do not see this as a place of getting into the science behind it... I leave that up to the professionals, most everyone just wants to know the 30,000 foot view as I do in 99% of my reading. If something catches my eye, I may put it on my list to research. The easiest way to get myself or a group to understand something is through examples.
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Old 11-08-2016, 11:28 AM   #18
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Let me clarify several things. Both the Full Rivers and Interstates are brand new. I had them connected in parallel for one dry camping weekend to see how much the voltage would drop over 4 days of regular use. I then disconnected the Full Fivers from the Interstates. I have not used the Full Rivers again. I have the Interstates permanently connected to a Battery Tender for charging and maintenance. I have a NOCO Genius G-26000 battery charger with a 26 amp output to charge (and maintain) the Full Rivers which is what the manufacturer recommends. I have a battery selector switch I bought from Blue Sea Systems which will let me use either battery bank, both in parallel and off. I am going to install the battery selector switch in a NEMA 3R hinged door enclosure so that it is not exposed to the elements and I will mount it to the left of the Interstate battery tray. For most normal camping we will only have the interstates connected and can use the Full Rivers in the rare event we want to use the inverter or dry camp for an extended time.
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Old 11-08-2016, 12:30 PM   #19
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Vicr: Sounds like a plan! I was curious about this thread because I wanted to be able to install an extra battery in my camper. I also have a truck camper with one battery so I figured I could just move it over when I wanted 2 batteries but they were different brands and age. Theory and real world don't always agree so I was hoping someone would chime in that had put 2 dissimilar batteries in parallel and say whether it worked ok or not for them.
Turns out one battery died so I bought one identical to the good one which was less than a year old - problem solved.

Sorry about the electrical details. DW jumps on me from time to time about that too. She says I try to make every conversation a learning experience. Maybe I missed my calling and should have been a teacher?
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Old 11-08-2016, 01:32 PM   #20
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Vicr: Theory and real world don't always agree so I was hoping someone would chime in that had put 2 dissimilar batteries in parallel and say whether it worked ok or not for them.

Sorry about the electrical details. DW jumps on me from time to time about that too. She says I try to make every conversation a learning experience. Maybe I missed my calling and should have been a teacher?
KYCAMPER,
No problem with the electrical details... the members will tell you I am FULL of them.

Looking at 2 big, heavy, different AGE/Ah/Mfr batteries it is kind of hard for the average person (me included) to see any real differences other than cosmetic.

The easiest way I can think of describing the issues in an easy explanation is take a flashlight that holds 4 "D" batteries (if they still make them anymore) and replace one of the "D" batteries with a "AA" battery, you can pretty much envision the end result. Your system is only as strong as your weakest link. Now some of the members may have a visual to remember, although it is a little on the drastic side.

Oh, as for being a teacher of electronics... I taught a course in the "Economics of Telecommunication", bring a lot of NO-DOZE to class.. longest 4 days of my life.

Have a GREAT DAY!!
Don
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