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Old 01-10-2016, 03:57 PM   #1
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Solar - is Handy Bob right?

In advance of getting our new trailer, I've been studying up on solar. I've convinced myself that this is something that I want to do to increase the enjoyment at no hook up areas like we commonly find in National Parks. One of the resources that often comes up is Handy Bob's blog. I've read that several times.

After reading the stuff on his site, then doing some background checking, it seems like a lot of what he says checks out and is on the up-n-n-up. And I also find myself looking at people's different set ups and that also seems to corroborate his thoughts and theory.

I've seen people with 2 golf cart batteries and 200 to 300 watts of panels that keep their batteries full. Then I see other people with 2 batteries that are talking about doubling their panels to keep up a full charge. That sounds to me like their system isn't working very well, based on the reading on Bob's blog. I have also read people using a generator over solar to charge batteries. Again, seems like other underlying issues with the solar system, or under design.

I'd be curious as to what people here think of Bob's ideas and guidance? Do you believe what he suggests? Would you use his guidance to design a solar system for your rig?

In going forward, I'm trying to decide what my system will be. While I can't fully figure it out until I have a trailer in my driveway, I'm trying to determine major components.

I think I'm starting with two 6v batteries - not sure of brand/model yet, want to measure up the battery compartment first and figure out if they can go there or have to move. In the future, I may go to 4 batteries, but that would be max!

Panels, thinking between 200 and 300 watts total, probably in 2 panels parallel. This could increase to 400 to 600 in the future.

Charge controller - here's where I wonder - do I follow Bob's suggestion for the Bogart charge controller & monitor since he recommends it so highly, or go with a Morningstar Tri-star 45 PWM (which he also recommends, but is more main stream)

I'll likely start out by installing the charge controller and fuses, but use the panels as portable for the first year or two, since I don't want to poke the roof right away. Then if experiences are good, then I'd mount them on the roof, or not I'd I find or spots are frequently too shaded.

I'd appreciate your thoughts, guidance and ideas!
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Old 01-10-2016, 04:20 PM   #2
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Like any other blog, article or opinion, you need to pick out the best parts and ignore the rest. Bob has a lot of good information in his blog for opening up a readers eyes to what is involved for SOLAR RVing.

For just about everyone that has SOLAR, you will find a different opinion, and most are good. I have one 250 watt residential SOLAR panel, two Trojan T145 6 volt batteries (260Ah) and they meet our BASIC DC needs. I monitored our camping DC electrical needs for awhile prior to purchasing SOLAR. I built a system that I can add on to, should I need/want to. We can make coffee in the morning using the electric coffee pot. We can run the microwave when the sun is shining (mid day) without any problems, we watch Tv at night for at least 4 hours and when we wake up in the morning the batteries are around 12.4VDC. The SOLAR panels start charging the batteries around 9AM and the batteries are usually fully charged by 2PM on sunny days and by 4PM on cloudy days.

But... what meets our needs may not meet your needs. I would recommend a minimum of 250 watts of SOLAR to start with for either just to charge your batteries or an entry level for dry-camping, and design your system so you can add more SOLAR and batteries.

Here is a link to the "RVing with SOLAR" social group, you will find some good information there.
Just my thoughts,

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Old 01-10-2016, 04:24 PM   #3
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I would trust Bob.

He will be my guide when I do my RV solar.

I don't want to make many holes in my roof either so I'll be using these peel and stick panels by Unisolar.
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Old 01-10-2016, 05:27 PM   #4
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if you are camped under full sun all day you can get by with just a panel or two . the reason I have 4 panels is we are always under a very heavy tree canopy. I never see full amperage from the panels. maybe that is why some folks systems don't seem to work so well , I know that is my case at least. I did disperse my panels from front to back of the trailer too catch what light does make it through the trees, that has helped over my previous ways of mounting the panels on the roof. don't know it this helps or not but if you camp under trees all the time it is something to think about.
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Old 01-11-2016, 07:31 AM   #5
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Bob has a lot of good information, and much of his overbuilding systems does no harm. BUT, he is an advocate of PWM systems, basically 1970's technology. Yes, it works well, but technology has moved on. A carefully designed MPPT system easily outperforms the PWM, starts charging earlier in the day, and reaches full charge much sooner. It also works very much better in cloudy conditions. But it also uses different high voltage panels, (more $ per watt).
I've spent the last 2 seasons off-grid using a 250 watt MPPT system, and two GC-2 6 volt 232 AH batteries, from May to October and never had to use my generator in that time period with the exception of running heavy power tools. I'm at 53 degrees latitude, so even in midsummer the sun never gets that high in the sky. My panel is mounted flat on the trailer roof, no tilt. This last season, I was there full time, building our new house with no problems or shortage of power from the 12 volt system.
This all being said, I have been flamed for having made these observations. (not here) Some regard Handy Bob as some sort of messiah, personally, I'd rather follow the advice of the engineers that designed the components and batteries.
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Old 01-11-2016, 08:01 AM   #6
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This is what I have, Two 125 watts panels two 6 volts batteries,
I have not had any problem with this. I do not have a inverter, So if I want to watch a movie I run a small generator. Which is very rare, I will sit outside and read a Real Book.
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Old 01-11-2016, 08:20 AM   #7
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Solar - is Handy Bob right?

If you are able to find 12v panels that make sense, the Bogart controller seems like a good option. For me, it seemed like things were moving to 24v panels with higher wattages. The price per watt is certainly less that way. And I wanted to cram as much wattage per square inch as I could since roof real estate (or storage for portables) is scarce. At that point you are forced into a MPPT controller.
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Old 01-11-2016, 09:21 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Curious by Nature View Post

A carefully designed MPPT system...

But it also uses different high voltage panels, (more $ per watt).

I found the opposite to be true. 100W 12 volt panels (Renogy, etc) seem to come in consistently at more than $1 per watt. The 24v panels at 235-300W were consistently less than $1 per watt.

I'm not saying that the savings is substantial, or even enough to offset the MPPT controller cost... but panel cost alone shouldn't deter you from the MPPT-based system.
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Old 01-11-2016, 01:08 PM   #9
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Well, I took what he says to heart and will see how my system turns out.
What I've bought:
Renogy 300 Watt RV Kit
Bogart Engineering SC-2030 Charge Controller
Bogart Engineering TM-2030 Monitor
Using 6AWG cable for runs and 2AWG cable for the 2 battery leads into the storage compartment.
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Old 01-11-2016, 02:19 PM   #10
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Just so I am clear - do MPPT controllers work on practically any voltage that current solar puts out?

With the "solar ready" with barely adequate wire sizes, higher voltage makes better use of the installed wire. Definitely a plus to higher volt panels and likely to be locally available too.

As to the roof - I'm not 100% against attaching panels to my roof, I'm just putting off until I know I don't have any warranty repairs that need to be done to the roof.

I appreciate the discussion and view points!
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Old 01-11-2016, 02:57 PM   #11
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Just so I am clear - do MPPT controllers work on practically any voltage that current solar puts out?

SOLAR Charge Controllers (MPPT) have different specifications. I have the Moringstar TS MPPT 60 charge controller (60 amp). You can see the different watt restrictions in the picture below. If you plan on expanding your system in the future, make sure the charge controller you purchase can handle the additions. It gets EXPENSIVE when you start re-buying parts because you can not expand your system. The max voltage my MPPT controller allows from the SOLAR panels is 150VDC.

With the "solar ready" with barely adequate wire sizes, higher voltage makes better use of the installed wire. Definitely a plus to higher volt panels and likely to be locally available too.

I used residential SOLAR panels and the voltage is about 30+ volts so that is one of the main reasons. On roof mounted panels, I do not recommend connecting them in series as any shading on even a single panel will bring down the output of the entire system, whereas if in parallel the shading will only affect the output of the shaded panel and the rest will perform normally. So your "SOLAR Ready" will have to deal with more amps, if in parallel.

As to the roof - I'm not 100% against attaching panels to my roof, I'm just putting off until I know I don't have any warranty repairs that need to be done to the roof.

I went ahead and mounted mine when we got the trailer. When I talked with Jayco (when I was going to install SOLAR) she said that the warranty would only affect the roof area around the mountings of the solar panel..
If you click on Communities (above) and Social Groups and go to RVing with Solar or just this link "RVing with SOLAR" social group, I have step by step instructions on how I installed my panel (on page 2). I check it every month and after arriving at each CG, because there is a lot of air flow on the roof. After 3.5 years it is as secure as the day I installed it. Send Jayco an email to clarify what part of the warranty will be voided.
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Old 01-11-2016, 06:03 PM   #12
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Basically, what Don said. In the case of my system I have it sized so that i could run the panels (3 * 235W) in series or parallel.

Series would result in 90VDC @ 7.84A = 705W. I will likely still run them in parallel to avoid shading issues, which results in 30VDC @ 23.5A = 705W. I've got the same controller as Don, so at worst I'll be at 90 out of a max 150V input.

In either case the controller will output approx 48.6A @ 14.5V = 705W to the batteries... or 58.75A @ 12V, etc, etc, etc.
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Old 01-11-2016, 06:36 PM   #13
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Don
So basically, MPPT converts voltage to battery voltage levels then controls the amperage as needed for charging? As long as voltage is under the controller max, you're good to go.

Thanks! Never really considered that they wouldn't say no to the entire roof. That's a good thought. Still may try portable for the first year to make sure we camp in areas with enough sun.

Thanks for the suggestion on the solar community - had already read everything there. Out of curiosity, why is it a social community instead another forum folder here?


Thanks guys! I'm sure there will be more, probably fuse types next....
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Old 01-11-2016, 07:43 PM   #14
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Thanks for the suggestion on the solar community - had already read everything there. Out of curiosity, why is it a social community instead another forum folder here?
Who knows, maybe I will wake up one day and there will be a new "RVing with SOLAR" forum. Then again, maybe not!

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Old 01-11-2016, 10:24 PM   #15
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A lot of the answer to the question you originally asked depends on how much power you use... George camped next to me gets by just fine with 1-100 watt panel. I have 515 watts and need more.. but I like to enjoy my time and that means using the microwave, watching TV, etc.. SO you have to find one of the worksheets and calculate how much power you need in a typical day... and sizing your system accordingly. Leave room for upgrades...
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Old 01-12-2016, 08:44 AM   #16
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So basically, MPPT converts voltage to battery voltage levels then controls the amperage as needed for charging? As long as voltage is under the controller max, you're good to go.



Thanks! Never really considered that they wouldn't say no to the entire roof. That's a good thought. Still may try portable for the first year to make sure we camp in areas with enough sun.



Thanks for the suggestion on the solar community - had already read everything there. Out of curiosity, why is it a social community instead another forum folder here?





Thanks guys! I'm sure there will be more, probably fuse types next....

Yes... MPPT will change output voltage to meet the batteries voltage and also change the amperage so that no power is lost. PWM on the other hand will change the voltage but won't up the amperage. Whatever amps come in simply go out at 12V nominal. This is why PWM only makes sense with 12V panels in RV applications.
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Old 01-12-2016, 09:15 AM   #17
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Yes... MPPT will change output voltage to meet the batteries voltage and also change the amperage so that no power is lost. PWM on the other hand will change the voltage but won't up the amperage. Whatever amps come in simply go out at 12V nominal. This is why PWM only makes sense with 12V panels in RV applications.
JMC is correct. What most people do not understand is that with the PWM controllers you are losing about 25% of the available power. So, with a 100 SOLAR watt panel (12VDC battery voltage * 6 amp SOLAR panel output = 72watts) you are wasting 28 watts. If you had (3) 100 watt SOLAR panels on the roof of your TT you would be wasting about 84 watts of SOLAR power. Almost the output of one panel.

If you use the above scenario of with a 100 watt SOLAR panel and a MPPT controller, you would be using 100% of the panels output (watts). With a 100 Watt SOLAR panel (100 Watts / 12VDC Battery voltage = 8.3 Amps). If you had (3) 100 watt SOLAR panels on the roof of your TT you would be charging at 25 amps compared to 18 Amps with the PWM controller.

So the real question is, does the extra performance warrant the additional money to purchase a MPPT controller. I think that depends on how much you discharge your batteries if you do not dry-camp, and how much you dry-camp. For just keeping your batteries topped off at 13.2VDC and do not dry camp, the PWM will be just fine. For dry camping, I would go with the MPPT controller, plus you can purchase one you can add more SOLAR panels with.

Just my thoughts,
Don
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:32 AM   #18
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I installed my system two summers ago after doing a lot of reading, especially on Handy Bobs site. I even corresponded with him a few times during planning and installation. If you really understand what he is saying, don't just copy someone else's installation but figure out your own requirements and put in a system that's right for you.

I ended up with two 158w panels from dmsolar (seems those have gone away - too bad they were a great deal), a Morningstar PWM controller and a small inverter. We're mostly weekenders at this point, but usually take a 2 week trip in the summer. I have come to the point where I leave my TT converter breaker off, so even on shore power for the microwave and water heater, the solar charges the batteries. The last 2 summers on our long trips our sites have been shaded until noon. Even then we are fully charged by 4 in the afternoon.

Don, I'm not sure why you say you lose 25% with a PWM charger? During the bulk charge time all of the current and voltage from the panels goes to the batteries. I stayed with PWM because buying MPPT was incrementally as expensive as adding another panel, and I would get more benefit from the latter.
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Old 01-12-2016, 11:59 AM   #19
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JMC is correct. What most people do not understand is that with the PWM controllers you are losing about 25% of the available power. So, with a 100 SOLAR watt panel (12VDC battery Wouldn't this be 100 Watts at 14.8V (if you set it to bulk charge that way) to equal 6.75 amps? Seems like it wouldn't throw away much power until your batteries are charged, but by then, it wouldn't matter because your batteries are charged? voltage * 6 amp SOLAR panel output = 72watts) you are wasting 28 watts. If you had (3) 100 watt SOLAR panels on the roof of your TT you would be wasting about 84 watts of SOLAR power. Almost the output of one panel.

If you use the above scenario of with a 100 watt SOLAR panel and a MPPT controller, you would be using 100% of the panels output (watts). With a 100 Watt SOLAR panel (100 Watts / 12VDC Battery voltage = 8.3 Amps). If you had (3) 100 watt SOLAR panels on the roof of your TT you would be charging at 25 amps compared to 18 Amps with the PWM controller.

So the real question is, does the extra performance warrant the additional money to purchase a MPPT controller. I think that depends on how much you discharge your batteries if you do not dry-camp, and how much you dry-camp. For just keeping your batteries topped off at 13.2VDC and do not dry camp, the PWM will be just fine. For dry camping, I would go with the MPPT controller, plus you can purchase one you can add more SOLAR panels with.

Just my thoughts,
Don
See above, am I missing something? Won't you get all the power through PWM until you are charged?
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Old 01-12-2016, 12:21 PM   #20
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I installed my system two summers ago after doing a lot of reading, especially on Handy Bobs site. I even corresponded with him a few times during planning and installation. If you really understand what he is saying, don't just copy someone else's installation but figure out your own requirements and put in a system that's right for you.

I ended up with two 158w panels from dmsolar (seems those have gone away - too bad they were a great deal), a Morningstar PWM controller and a small inverter. We're mostly weekenders at this point, but usually take a 2 week trip in the summer. I have come to the point where I leave my TT converter breaker off, so even on shore power for the microwave and water heater, the solar charges the batteries. The last 2 summers on our long trips our sites have been shaded until noon. Even then we are fully charged by 4 in the afternoon.
How many batteries are you running?
I am assuming 2, and your usage sound very similar to what ours has been and will continue to be, at least until the kids are gone (another 8 years or so). We take 2 weeks every summer and are usually in a National Park Campground without electric for 10 to 12 days. Everything else is weekend stuff.

I would figure out what I need, but I need to get my trailer and figure out the actual numbers are. We are fairly frugal on electricity. Usually with no hook ups, if we watched a movie, it was on a portable dvd player. Mostly just lights, water pump and possibly the furnace if it gets too chilly. Fridge would be on Propane.

Part of the real unknown for me right now, is that our new trailer will have an electric fridge in the outdoor kitchen. I am toying with the idea of a smaller inverter (say 300 watt - just a guess right now) that I can use to power that half fridge 24/7 and then we could also do a little TV/DVD off the inverter in the evenings. Not knowing the pull of this half fridge, I can't really plan it out too well yet. Will likely be another couple months before I get the trailer. Call this step my preliminary planning. Getting specifics on systems helps me gauge my results better - Are my numbers and results reasonable - and if others are doing similar things, than I must not be too off base. For instance, your usage and equipment sound pretty similar to what I am thinking I'll need.

From a sizing standpoint, if I go with 6V batteries, it will either 2 or 4 batteries. I suspect that two would meet our needs without the fridge, but not sure if I could run the fridge off of 2 or if that'll bump me to 4. Need to get it and measure usage to know. If it is too close, it would push me to 4 batteries, which would be the max I wanted to do. I'd size my solar to accommodate the number of batteries I end up with. I may very well start with two batteries and enough solar and plan for future upgrades depending on my experience.

I really do appreciate the input! Discussions like this help me quite a bit.
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