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09-21-2017, 08:59 AM
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#41
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: KS
Posts: 5
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Good idea Doc. I also have one more trip planned but I'm nervous as heck about dragging this thing down the road after seeing the tank on the ground.
Through research it's also been found out that my VIN and camper queens VIN are 11 numbers off (both 2013 Swift 267BHS). Most likely on the assembly line together. My question is--at what point does Jayco admit there may be a problem with the tanks and/or the installation? How many have to fail for it not to be a coincidence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown
I have one trip left in Oct. I'm going to be checking my brakes this weekend, and I'm looking at the fasteners for the tank straps.
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09-21-2017, 09:23 AM
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#42
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: South Texas
Posts: 7,206
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So, here's something to consider in the "don't travel with tanks full" arena. Is the yellow load information sticker on the side of the trailer not a government required item? And what does that yellow sticker say?
On mine it says "The weight of cargo should never exceed 2201 lbs." And then "Caution: A full load of water equals 714 lbs of cargo @ 8.3 lb/gal."
Would this not directly negate any "advice" in the manual about traveling with full tanks? At least on the fresh water side?
This mandated sticker implies that so long as my cargo, including my full tank of fresh water, do not exceed 2201 lbs, I'm good to go. WHILE TRAVELING DOWN THE ROAD. So then, would this not put some of the onus back on the manufacturer to ensure that said tanks are capable of being transported full?
Now, granted, it doesn't mention waste tanks (and the math does not include waste tank capacity in that number, I checked), but still...
I'm not necessarily saying Jayco should cover the cost of the repair out of warranty, but if I'm Jayco, I'm CERTAINLY paying attention to this issue. Because the bottom line is that something hanging from the bottom of a vehicle that has the potential of traveling down the road weighing 265 lbs (a 32 gal waste tank at 8.3 lbs/gal) should be adequately secured for the journey. The results of NOT doing so could be catastrophic. I would SURE want to know how that happened!
And let's be a little pragmatic for a moment. How much could properly securing a waste tank REALLY cost? Incrementally, not much I'm sure. And compared to the costs of potential damage created, REALLY not much.
Another observation when it comes to trailer quality: It seems there's this "we've always done it that way" attitude in trailer manufacturing. Sure, they're looking at ways users can be more comfortable and convenient in their trailers, but is anyone out there looking at basic process improvements? Or do we just do things like we did in the '50s because "that's the way we've always done it". Even if only a few incidents have been reported, and it's not a "widespread" problem, why not take a few minutes and figure out how to do it better?
__________________
-2018 Greyhawk 29MV
-2020 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (JLU) (Primary Toad)
-1994 Jeep Wrangler YJ (Secondary Toad)
-2014 Jay Flight 28BHBE & Ram 2500 6.4L CC 4x4 (sold)
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09-21-2017, 09:37 AM
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#43
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Site Team
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Connellsville
Posts: 22,680
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A friend of mine has a Riverside RPM toy hauler. Their grey tank fell and was dragging on the ground on their first trip out. It doest change the fact that this is a problem, but it certainly isn't isolated to Jayco.
__________________
Moderator
2017 Jay Feather 7 22BHM Baja/Andersen WD
2018 F150 4x4 3.5L Ecoboost Max Tow
2015 MB Sprinter 2500 Passenger 2.1L Diesel
2007 Ram 2500 4x4 Cummins 5.9L G56
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09-21-2017, 10:27 AM
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#44
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Springfield
Posts: 558
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After I read this thread, I crawled under my 2017 to see how the black tank is secured. The edges of the tank literally slide into a slot on the frame from the back. What keeps it from sliding out is a simple piece of metal about an 1/8 by about 4 inches which is secured by a single bolt in the frame. This piece of metal just rotates down over the back then they tighten it up. I could easily see that if that bolt came loose, and the strap fell off, then the tank could work itself out. Just thinking that maybe that's what happened here
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09-21-2017, 10:49 AM
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#45
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Albany, OR
Posts: 692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camper_bob
Snip!
Another observation when it comes to trailer quality: It seems there's this "we've always done it that way" attitude in trailer manufacturing. Sure, they're looking at ways users can be more comfortable and convenient in their trailers, but is anyone out there looking at basic process improvements? Or do we just do things like we did in the '50s because "that's the way we've always done it". Even if only a few incidents have been reported, and it's not a "widespread" problem, why not take a few minutes and figure out how to do it better?
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Let's face it, unseen design improvements do nothing to sell trailers (or cars for that matter) and that is the primary focus of trailer manufacturers.
These companies are basically playing the Ford exploding gas tank game. If one of these tanks ever falls off and kills somebody, the fact that Jayco (or whoever) knew this issue existed, and did nothing about it, will open them up to huge lawsuits. However, management has decided that they would rather risk lives and lawsuits, than implement a simple, inexpensive fix.
__________________
2015 Jayco 27RLS
2015 Ford F250 6.7PSD
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09-21-2017, 10:50 AM
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#46
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Springfield
Posts: 558
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I went out and took a picture on my Greyhawk. This is how the grey tank is held in on mine. Maybe yours loosened up and fell off, or maybe it's a different setup not sure, or maybe they forgot to install it. Without this, it can work it's way backwards and out it goes.
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09-21-2017, 10:50 AM
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#47
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Sparwood, BC
Posts: 2,800
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The proper way should have been an extra cross-member which would slide over the lib of the tank, like it does on the front. Two or three brackets with woodscrews wouldn't hold in the long run.
__________________
2014 Ram 1500 CrewCab 4x4 5.7 Hemi 3.92 Rear and Air Lift 1000
2005 Jayco Jay Feather LGT - 29Y GVWR-7000 lbs.
Dexter Axle Lift 4-9/16" - installed with sub-frame.
Pro Series 1200 lbs. WDH with Double Sway Bar.
Champion 3100/2800 watt Inverter/Generator-Onboard Solar Power
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09-21-2017, 10:53 AM
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#48
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: KS
Posts: 5
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Thanks for the info skyguy. I was wondering if they'd started mounting them any differently.
The grey tank on my 2013 is held on by 4 stainless Z brackets with 7 screws in each. The only thing holding it up is the plastic edge of the tank. Naturally when full it's going to sag under it's own weight--and it eventually slip through the brackets. This is what happened to both camper queen and myself...no damage to the brackets AT ALL. The tank just fell out. Yes my tank was full but how am I supposed to boondock if I can't hold water in my tank for a few days? Can't dump it on the ground, can't keep it in the tank.
Again, I'll pose the question--at what point does this issue become a technical service bulletin and not just an "odd coincidence" (...Jayco's words) especially given the fact that camper queen and myself have campers that came out of the factory the same day?
Quote:
Originally Posted by t18skyguy
After I read this thread, I crawled under my 2017 to see how the black tank is secured. The edges of the tank literally slide into a slot on the frame from the back. What keeps it from sliding out is a simple piece of metal about an 1/8 by about 4 inches which is secured by a single bolt in the frame. This piece of metal just rotates down over the back then they tighten it up. I could easily see that if that bolt came loose, and the strap fell off, then the tank could work itself out. Just thinking that maybe that's what happened here
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09-21-2017, 11:01 AM
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#49
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Springfield
Posts: 558
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Square, I totally get your point. The structure of the tank is such that it is not self supporting in the slots. So if there is enough weight in it, the lips of the tank butterfly up and down it goes. There is for sure an engineering or design issue there, or the tank needs to be supported from the bottom with steel u brackets and not straps. It's a shame it's us that has to fix this issue.
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09-21-2017, 12:22 PM
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#50
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: CENTRAL NEW YORK
Posts: 984
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My Chevy TV with only 37K just left me stranded in my driveway minutes before we were leaving to go camping last Friday. The fuel lines rusted and turned to dust and started spewing gasoline all over the bottom of my truck. I wish I only had gray water problems
Could GM have uses better material ? Sure. My brakes lines turned to dust 3 years earlier and my pedal went to the floor, again in my driveway the weekend after camping and experiencing some grades coming out of Ithaca NY. I guess I am lucky both times we didn't die. The brakes line I replaced with all stainless. I am currently working on custom stainless lines for the fuel right now.
Point is, all manufactures cut corners to pay the fat executives. Its a fact of life. If they skimp on fuel and brake lines, good luck with a water tank
Oh, and get under your rigs, both TT an TV and make sure you do regular inspections
__________________
2013 33 RLDS
2004 Chevy Avalanche 2500 8.1
2019 Jeep Cherokee Limited 3.2
2016 CTS 4 2.0T
2001 Oldsmobile Aurora 4.0
2015 Chrysler 200C AWD
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09-21-2017, 12:28 PM
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#51
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Site Team
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia`s Eastern Shore
Posts: 17,091
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I propose they add an even more absurd sticker on the trailer if they cannot be towed full or they are dropping downwhile stationary.
" This recreational vehicle is equipped with holding tanks that are for appearance and marketing purposes only. The tanks cannot be filled at any time for any reason or they may fail. If you choose to boondock or an electric only site carry water in your tow vehicle and dump grey and sewage water on ground. "
__________________
2017 Coachmen Catalina 283RKS
2018 Ford F250 Super Duty 6.2l CCSB
2010 Jayflight 28BHS (sold)
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09-21-2017, 12:33 PM
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#52
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,643
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I'd be well satisfied if my trailer was as reliable as my 2008 Chevy truck. But it's not. Yes, all manufactured goods can have problems. But the list of items that go wrong with Jayco - and other manufacturer's trailers - is long.
I think as purchasers of these goods we are correct to have high expectations. Toyota helped make Chevy better. If there were a moderate price and reliable trailer all trailers would get better. Maybe sometime.
__________________
There's lots of advice and information in forums... sometimes it is correct. For example, all of my posts are made by a political appointee who got the job as a reward for contributions to my diesel bill.
2011 Jayco 28.5RLS; 2021 Chevy Duramax; Pullrite Superglide Hitch
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09-21-2017, 01:11 PM
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#53
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: South Texas
Posts: 7,206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33 RLDS
My Chevy TV with only 37K just left me stranded in my driveway minutes before we were leaving to go camping last Friday. The fuel lines rusted and turned to dust and started spewing gasoline all over the bottom of my truck. I wish I only had gray water problems
Could GM have uses better material ? Sure. My brakes lines turned to dust 3 years earlier and my pedal went to the floor, again in my driveway the weekend after camping and experiencing some grades coming out of Ithaca NY. I guess I am lucky both times we didn't die. The brakes line I replaced with all stainless. I am currently working on custom stainless lines for the fuel right now.
Point is, all manufactures cut corners to pay the fat executives. Its a fact of life. If they skimp on fuel and brake lines, good luck with a water tank
Oh, and get under your rigs, both TT an TV and make sure you do regular inspections
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This is a good point, and I totally get it. But does NY use salt on the roads in the winter? That could be considered "hard" use. Something outside the intended design parameters (it shouldn't be, but it could be). In the tank situation, there was nothing even somewhat out of the ordinary for the use of the vehicle. Literally. There was water in a tank designed to hold water. You would have every right to be upset if it was the brake fluid that ate the hoses from the inside and caused the failure (not that you don't have a right to be upset as it is, I would be).
I've often made the argument to my father who has dealt with fleets of vehicles his entire life. I'd say "dad, why don't they just spend a few bucks more and make a better product or buy a better part". His argument was always the same: "A few bucks more on each of millions of vehicles adds up to millions of dollars. In many cases it can be cheaper to deal with intermittent failures than to spend $$ to fix a root problem." I understand his point, but I don't like it one bit. Under my breath, I've caught myself repeating one of his old adages, "if you don't have time/money to do it right, you certainly don't have time/money to do it AGAIN." And as I've gotten older, I understand better how that little incremental change affects decision makers' pocket books. Again, I see the point, but I ain't sayin' it's right.
As for "plausible deniability", that's why these issues should be reported. If the company "doesn't know", they don't have any real liability. If they DO know, they don't fix it, and someone dies as a result, they could be negligent. And that's baad ummkay. As a decision-maker in the company, I'd want to know that we did what we could to fix a potential problem like this. And putting a warning in the manual that says "don't use this item as it is intended to be used" is NOT it. But then, it seems like I might be a rare breed who likes taking pride in my work and wants it done right, even if I take home a few less greenbacks at the end of the day.
__________________
-2018 Greyhawk 29MV
-2020 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (JLU) (Primary Toad)
-1994 Jeep Wrangler YJ (Secondary Toad)
-2014 Jay Flight 28BHBE & Ram 2500 6.4L CC 4x4 (sold)
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09-21-2017, 01:20 PM
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#54
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,643
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Crabman, I took your idea of the information sticker and added a few items:
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Congratulations on the purchase of your new trailer! This vehicle is decorative only, and not intended for actual use. Keep it stored in a dry area and protect from excessive heat, cold or moisture. Tires as provided are for delivery only; purchased trailer must be delivered on a flatbed to desired location(s). Cabinets as assembled are just for display; do not load up with heavy items. The stereo system has pretty lights, but is not suitable for actual amplification of music. Caution: sitting on trailer furniture will cause damage to fabrics and/or vinyl; use a stool instead (available at extra cost: special order item). Do not use automatic leveling system on uneven ground. Your dealer is not required to repair anything. A dealer undertaking a repair can take as long a time as is convenient for the dealer. Other restrictions, limitations, and cautions apply.
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__________________
There's lots of advice and information in forums... sometimes it is correct. For example, all of my posts are made by a political appointee who got the job as a reward for contributions to my diesel bill.
2011 Jayco 28.5RLS; 2021 Chevy Duramax; Pullrite Superglide Hitch
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09-21-2017, 01:27 PM
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#55
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Site Team
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia`s Eastern Shore
Posts: 17,091
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVhiker
Crabman, I took your idea of the information sticker and added a few items:
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Congratulations on the purchase of your new trailer! This vehicle is decorative only, and not intended for actual use. Keep it stored in a dry area and protect from excessive heat, cold or moisture. Tires as provided are for delivery only; purchased trailer must be delivered on a flatbed to desired location(s). Cabinets as assembled are just for display; do not load up with heavy items. The stereo system has pretty lights, but is not suitable for actual amplification of music. Caution: sitting on trailer furniture will cause damage to fabrics and/or vinyl; use a stool instead (available at extra cost: special order item). Do not use automatic leveling system on uneven ground. Your dealer is not required to repair anything. A dealer undertaking a repair can take as long a time as is convenient for the dealer. Other restrictions, limitations, and cautions apply.
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Haha, I like it. I bet we could even come up with some more with nambarcs help.
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09-21-2017, 01:32 PM
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#56
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: South Texas
Posts: 7,206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVhiker
Crabman, I took your idea of the information sticker and added a few items:
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Congratulations on the purchase of your new trailer! This vehicle is decorative only, and not intended for actual use. Keep it stored in a dry area and protect from excessive heat, cold or moisture. Tires as provided are for delivery only; purchased trailer must be delivered on a flatbed to desired location(s). Cabinets as assembled are just for display; do not load up with heavy items. The stereo system has pretty lights, but is not suitable for actual amplification of music. Caution: sitting on trailer furniture will cause damage to fabrics and/or vinyl; use a stool instead (available at extra cost: special order item). Do not use automatic leveling system on uneven ground. Your dealer is not required to repair anything. A dealer undertaking a repair can take as long a time as is convenient for the dealer. Other restrictions, limitations, and cautions apply.
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Unfortunately, extremely accurate.
__________________
-2018 Greyhawk 29MV
-2020 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (JLU) (Primary Toad)
-1994 Jeep Wrangler YJ (Secondary Toad)
-2014 Jay Flight 28BHBE & Ram 2500 6.4L CC 4x4 (sold)
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