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Old 05-04-2013, 10:59 PM   #1
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Help 12 Volt Issue - Confused as To Cause

Hey Guys,
Come back from dinner tonight and wanted to get hooked up to pull out early.
Didn't unplug the 11V and did not connect the TT 12 to the TV.

All a sudden, the propane alarm started sounding.
One of the 12V lights was on and I thought it was exhaust from TV setting off alarm.

I opened door to let in fresh air and turned vehicle off.

I noticed the light was dim.

We turned the 12V light off and the alarm went off.

Turn the lights on and they are dim and it's like it pulls too much current and the propane alarm goes off.

The HW tank is turned off and the propane is turned off.

I noticed a day or so ago the frigerator started giving me a "C" instead of light only on AC

I read the manual and it says that code says refrigerator not getting enough 12V supply. Check charging system etc.

I checked the breakers, all are on.

I checked all the 12V fuses and they seem good. I didn't pull them, I just checked using my probes on the back contacts on the flat auto fuses.

Everything seems to be ok.

The LED lights look normal, but the 12V incandescent lights are all dim. If you leave lights on, alarm will ultimately come on.

All 12V lights are dim.

All 120V circuits seem to be working.

Any ideas on what to check from here? Battery terminals are tight.

Best regards,
Doug
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:18 PM   #2
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I checked the charge on my TT battery. It's only at 5.5V?
Seems like the 12V side of the converter is not working?

The PO put in a new IOTA IDP-30 converter in prior to my purchase.

I unplugged 110V to TT and plugged into TV.
The running lights all look good.

Think I can pull 2 hours tomorrow until I can get to somewhere to better understand it?

They have high wind warnings tomorrow and I need to get 2 hours North. I'll be there 5 days and can followup.

Doug
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:42 PM   #3
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If I drop the ground wire off the battery, none of my 12V lights inside work at all.
Seems like the 12V side of the converter is not working.
I pulled all the 12V fuses and they are all good.

Shouldn't the converter run the 12 volt lights with the battery disconnected?

Doug
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Old 05-05-2013, 03:11 AM   #4
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I would check the 12 volt connetion (pos + neg) at the controller. One of the connections may have come loose. Also, pull all the fuses and do a voltage check on the converter, there may be a short on one of the 12volt ckts. If you have 12 volts with the fuses pulled, check each circuit for a short. Plug in one fuse at a time, and check the voltage after you plug in each fuse. Should isolate a bad ckt.
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Old 05-05-2013, 03:47 AM   #5
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Help 12 Volt Issue - Confused as To Cause

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougtoms01 View Post
If I drop the ground wire off the battery, none of my 12V lights inside work at all.
Seems like the 12V side of the converter is not working.
I pulled all the 12V fuses and they are all good.

Shouldn't the converter run the 12 volt lights with the battery disconnected?

Doug
Yes, your lights and everything should still work when plugged into shorepower and no battery hook up. When you hook up tow vehicle you should see battery voltage start to come up. It may be a bad battery that is not excepting the charge. If voltage comes up and after plugging in ti tv then either converter problem or wiring issue at converter.
You mentioned pv replaced converter so you may start there.
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Old 05-05-2013, 04:26 AM   #6
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If, as you state, all the fuses are OK then there is definitely a problem with the converter. Forget trying to find a short on one of the circuits. That would have blown the associated circuits fuse. The propane detector will alarm when the voltage gets too low. Yes, as lx says, the converter (and the 12V system) will work without a battery.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:38 AM   #7
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I had a similar problem last year and had to replace the converter and battery. I learned my lesson and put the battery charger in the TT as a back up to the converter. I set it to trickle charge while we camped. The good part is I have a new battery and converter. I shouldn't have this problem for some time, bad news, The converter, battery, and charger set me back about $$$ while on vacation. Going through this gave me a better understanding of how the 12 volt and 110 system work together. Low voltage will set of your propane alarm and LED lights draw way less current than regular bulbs so it makes sense that they would still work (until your system is completely drained). Good luck with your repairs.
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:40 AM   #8
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Doug

You do have a dc multimeter with you right?...

Here is simplified block diagram of your 30AMP trailer. Note the Battery and the converter/charger both feed the DC POWER DISTRIBUTION panel where all of your 12VDC fuses are.


Im thinking you have blown fuses between the battery and the power distribution center. One fuse is in-line and real close to the battery terminals. A second set of fuses in this leg is at the Power Distribution Center labeled REVERSE POLARITY. Tose three fuses can disrupt the 12VDC from getting from the battery to the power distribution center.

One thing that might blow these fuses is the battery is going bad and drawing alot of current when you try to re-charge it using the converter thus blowing the fuses. Another reason might be you have pulled the battery terminals and got them reversed when you hooked them back up which is easy to do. Need to grab the NEG terminal cable that comes from FRAME GROUND and make sure it is going to the BATTERY TERMINAL that is marked on the battery case "NEG" or the stamped symbol "-".

It sounds like your battery is not being charged... The battery by itself (one terminal disconnected) should read 12.5-6VDC. If you turn on the converter/charger unit this voltage should jump to 13.6VDC at the battery terminal. Obviously this isn't happening since your ceiling lights don't come on with only the battery hooked up. If the battery isn't connected to the 12VDC grid then the converter/charger unit is NOT charging the battery as well...

To check the converter unit just plug the trailer into shore power and you should read 13.6VDC at the converter/charger large cable connections at all times. If the battery connections were good (no blown fuses or bad physical battery terminal connection) this 13.6VDC would be read at the battery terminals.

May be long trip back without DC power...

Of course you might also think about the 12VDC being lost at this time it is unsafe towing your trailer as it requires battery to operate your trailer electric brakes in case of break-away connection between the trailer and the Van when going down the road. Its a DOT law actually to have a good working battery during towing... You could afford the fine I suspect but they will also not allow the trailer to be towed on the public highway without a working battery on-board the trailer setup...

Trips are fun huh haha... Got to have a whole bag full of PLAN Bs when on a long trip

just my thoughts
Roy Ken
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Old 05-05-2013, 06:50 AM   #9
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That's a great Diagram, Roy.
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:08 AM   #10
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5.5VDC is usually what I read when a battery has a shorted cell. Pop the battery vents and I bet you will find one that has NO FLUIDS in it. You will probably also find the battery case rather warm if you held your hand on it when trying to charger it from converter. Since you are seeing DIM lights this almost says the fuses are good between the battery and the power distribution center. The main thing to check now is the 12VDC output coming from the converter/charger unit. Should read 13.6VDC when the converter is on 120VAC.. If your ceiling light are bright when the converter is on and the battery is disconnected then this will tell you the converter/charger is probabaly working ok. Its best to measure the DC VOLTs to be sure you are seeing 13.6VDC however.

Most LEDS lights will work with a range or 7-30VDC but the automotive incandescent bulbs will need a full 12VDC to be bright. Each automotive incandescent bulb will draw around 1AMP of 12VDC power. If you turn on all of your automotive ceiling light this be as much as 10-12AMPS being drawn from the batteries. Each LEDs light only draws around .2 AMPS from the 12VDC side for the same amount of light. This is pretty big saving of energy (Thus the reason we all want to have them installed).

If you have to order a new converter and cant find one locally keep in mind AMAZON has a two day deliver free shipping and will ship over night if pay for it. IOTA and PD4600 SMART MODE TECHNOLOGY series are both good brands to get. I would probably go for the 45AMP smart mode models just in case you want to install two batteries later on. Installing two 6VDC Golf Cart batteries ($80 each at COSTCO or SAMs CLUB) in series would be my choice for your smaller trailer. Being stranded on the road however I would just pickup a WALMART special deep cycle GP24 12VDC 85AH battery

Where are you guys at now.

Just my thoughts
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:30 AM   #11
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Hi Roy,
Moving this morning from Buellton, CA to Paso Robles, CA.

I will check the DC voltage on the converter once I get there.
I'll need to pull the cover off etc so I can access.

I don't like pulling with a dead battery, but have to go now before the winds get past 30mph at 10am.

I'll check in later to see what I find.

Kind regards,
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:53 AM   #12
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Doug - The IOTA IDP 30 refers to the 30AMP series power management panel. You should also have a DLS type IOTA converter/charger unit that goes with this. It should have REVERSE POLARITY fuses on its front panel where the two large BATTERY TERMINALS are connected. Be sure to check those fuses... Not knowing which INVERTER you have it may look something like this (This is a 45AMP converter I think). Note the fuse here which is your REVERSE POLARITY fuse. This will cause no 12VDC OUTPUT from the IOTA Converter module if blown.


Roy Ken
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:14 AM   #13
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BED685 - Drawing Not mine - got it off GOOGLE. It covers everthing pretty good as you can see. I was always seeing folks on here asking questions about how the trailers are hooked up. This shows it rather well I think...

You can find a bunch of my stuff I have for sending out to folks using google search - type in K9PHT 14RT

When it loads up select IMAGES" and you see many many pages of things I have at my finger tips to post rather quickly. It seems all of these forums immediately posts everyones post on google so I just use this as my working folder haha...

K9PHT 14RT are a couple of unique words I have in my signature line so when you search for that it finds about 90% of my photos posted on the forums.

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Old 05-05-2013, 08:29 AM   #14
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Doug

WEATHER CHANNEL says it suppose to die down some on the wind there today - at least where the wild fires at at...

Be careful out there my friend

I guess you got to see the ocean already around LA... Looks like you have a couple of beaches coming up between Buellton and Paso Robles.. I'm guessing I40 ended for you at Barstow haha... Been a long since I was out that way... Are you coming back VIA I40 again... The northern routes are still getting SNOW it seems...

Roy Ken
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:30 AM   #15
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for the information.
We made it fine here to Paso Robles and was able to check in early.

When I plugged in, everything was normal.
Frig on ac with no fault codes.
Lights normally bright

I checked the TT battery. It is now ready 11.5V, so it looks like it took a charge on the 2 hour drive?

I am suspecting the VDC output from the converter is not working and everything is currently happy with running off the battery.

I did notice the water levels need to be topped off, but no dry cells.

I checked the inline fuse on the + side of the battery cable - good.


So my next steps should be?
1. Check fuse on back of VDC converter
2. Check for 12V output from the converter to the fuse box

I guess if the VDC converter is bad, could I just buy a battery charger and hook it up to the battery via extension cord?

Otherwise I'll have to order a new converter and try to get the same one to fit the cutout?

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Old 05-05-2013, 12:48 PM   #16
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Ok,
Here's what I've been able to gather.
1. Volts at the large cables coming out of the converter is 11.55V
2. The green light is flashing which according to table means bulk charging.
3. I am having trouble getting the fuses out of the converter. I put probes across the back and it seems like I am getting 5.5V, but can't see well to make

4. After being hooked up a little bit, the refrigerator went to code "C" again.

5. I noticed the large blk wire running from the converter to the 12V buss panel connects with 2 blk wires going into the buss panel. The OP has used a large wire nut for this connection.

After fooling around with these wires, now the frig is back to normal ac code lit.

Currently the lights are brite and the frig is normal. Maybe this large wire nut is not making a good connection and then was running 12V stuff off the battery instead of the converter?

Here's some pics.
This is the converter I have
Click image for larger version

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Here are 2 fuses on the back of the converter that I am having trouble getting out. Tried once with needle nose pliers, but they are tight.
Do they pull straight out, no locking mechanism?

Click image for larger version

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Here are the 2 large wires coming out of the converter where I am measuring 11.55V. I'll check again after fooling with wire nut.
It is still 11.55V and 11.55V at the battery terminals

Click image for larger version

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Here is the 1 lg black feed coming from converter combined with 2 lg black wires to distribution/buss panel. Connection made with large wire nut.

Click image for larger version

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I am going to watch this situation for the afternoon and see if maybe this wire nut connection is iffy. Currently everything seems normal.

Please feel free to digest the data and pictures I've attached and let me know what you think.

In the meantime, I am going to stop by the store and get some distilled water to top off battery cells.

Best regards,
Doug
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:50 PM   #17
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Glad you made it. Good luck with isolating the problem. We are in the process of packing up the TT and heading out for 3 months in Colorado. Leaving next week..... can't wait!
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:00 PM   #18
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Check the converter voltage with the battery DISCONNECTED. Everything should operate normally when connected to shore power and the battery is DISCONNECTED. If things don't work this way and there is no poor connection problem as you described then the converter in all likelihood has failed.
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:42 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Check the converter voltage with the battery DISCONNECTED. Everything should operate normally when connected to shore power and the battery is DISCONNECTED. If things don't work this way and there is no poor connection problem as you described then the converter in all likelihood has failed.
Ok,
Checked with battery disconnected.
All 12V system fall out, frig, lights etc.
No voltage (35ma) measured the large wires coming out of converter.

So, I must have been reading battery voltage and converter is bad?

There's a local parts store. I'll give them a call tomorrow and see about replacing the converter.

Looks like the converter just plugs into the 120V outlet, large common and black wires into lugs on converter.

I did probe the back sides of the fuses and have continuity through the fuses, so I think they are good.

Still can't pull the fuses to physically check. I think I'll unscrew the converter to get a better approach to the fuses, but with no voltage on the 2 large lugs on the back with the battery disconnected, that tells me what I need to know?

Looks like shopping for a converter.

Thanks for the trouble shooting help.

Best regards,
Doug
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Old 05-05-2013, 03:57 PM   #20
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Doug - I just got back inside today... It sure sounds like the converter isnt working.

You need to figure out if it is getting 120VAC from the breaker in IDP30 unit. Also with the battery disconnected the two large leads on the back of the of the DLS45/IQ4 should be reading 13.6VDC most of the time. It reads different when it changes modes but for most of the time it will be reading 13/6VDC when it is on shore power.

ALso if you determine this is bad you only need to purchase this DSL45/IQ4 unit. Not the whole IDP Power management unit that you see in the cutout.

First however you need to determine somehow if it is plugged into 120VAC. These come with a 120VAC attached cord with a standard 120VAC three prong plug on it. If you can get to that just plug it into an extension cord that has 120VAC on it and it should work.

Again all you need to purchase is the DLS45/IQ4 unit. You can order one from AMAZON and they will ship in about two days with free shipping. You can locate an address there somewhere haha...

Let us know when you for sure have IDP hooked up to 120VAC and can read 13.6VDC on its output. If it does this then that unit is ok.

Also wiggling things around seemed to get you going for a time. Those twist connections are known to make bad connections... Unscrew it off completely and re-tighten the connection with a pair of pliers if you like then replace the twist on connection. ALSO check the tightness of the two large cables that are connected to the DLS45 unit. Sometimes those allen screw get loose. Hope you got an allen hex head set...

Roy Ken
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