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Old 10-19-2016, 01:45 PM   #1
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Looking to do inverter power supplement w/ solar

I'm new to the forum and new to Jayco. I've just purchased a 377RLBH that I will have next week. There is a nice park that I plan to use it in 99% of the time, but it only has 30 Amp available rather than 50 Amp. I figured a good way to get the difference of power would be to add in solar, but mostly to add in good invertor/chargers. I would be building this up on the basis of being able to go off grid without much issue as well.

I know I *COULD* do a generator, but I'd rather not for this RV.

If anyone has feedback based on what they have done so far that may be of help in my planning or deployment, please let me know.

My thought for what to install is as follows:
- Two Xantrex Freedom SW 3,000 Watt True Sine inverters, tied together to give 6,000 watts. I want to be able to run AC or the washer/dryer without issues.
- Xantrex Freedom Sequence Intelligent Power Management. It's important for me that I split shore power with onboard power. There is no point running everything from battery alone just because I only have a 15,20 or 30 amp post to connect to.
- Xantrex Xanbus System Control Panel
- Lithium batteries for more capacity. (Not sure on brand / model as yet.) Think slow charge, rapid drain for a weekend use unit. The current capacity of the lithium battery bank means I would have a lot more comfort in turning on high drain items, or draining past the critical 50% threshold of other batteries.

My biggest questions so far:
- What solar panels to use? Is flexible best based on what I've read on the roof design for the 377RLBH? How many can I fit of what sort? Assuming 60 cell panels, what is the best way to put the most panels on the roof?
- Which MPPT controller is best? I'd like something that works well with Lithium, but also can convert low voltage rather than just high voltage. (More as contingency planning for low voltage than a day to day requirement. I'd drop this if the controllers it limits me to are not in line for other features as the standard voltage dropping MPPT controllers.)
- With the increase in risk associated with Lithium, which manufacturers are best and worst for quality. Using things that may have a large tolerance range or poor standards isn't something I'd like to be a guinea-pig for.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.
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Old 10-19-2016, 02:06 PM   #2
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Welcome to the forum and congratulations on the North Point.

In your post you mentioned... "There is a nice park that I plan to use it in 99% of the time." Is that in Canada? You may not need 50amps unless you'll be running 2 air conditioners at the same time.

There are folks here that are really into solar etc. and you may hear from them before too long.
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Old 10-19-2016, 02:31 PM   #3
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Quote:
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Welcome to the forum and congratulations on the North Point.

In your post you mentioned... "There is a nice park that I plan to use it in 99% of the time." Is that in Canada? You may not need 50amps unless you'll be running 2 air conditioners at the same time.

There are folks here that are really into solar etc. and you may hear from them before too long.
Thank you, OldmanAZ.

In the hotter weather on a mostly weekend unit there will be times I'll be coming into the trailer and melting. I may not need two ACs to keep it cool other than in the extreme heat, but there are certainly times I will want to use both to get it cool.

The other side of this is to build out the system to see if I can remove the need for external electricity. Over time I'd like to be able remove the dependence on the post for power entirely. That's more a personal desire than a hard power requirement in my case.
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Old 10-19-2016, 02:58 PM   #4
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Very interesting project. I am not familiar at all with splitting power between shore and battery at the same time but it sounds like an interesting idea. And you likely won't need both AC units running full time.

You could reduce your initial capital by keeping one AC on a separate circuit which it should be already. You can wire just the one AC unit into the inverter and then to the battery bank while the other one can run off of shore power. Then you just need the one inverter.

I don't think you can haul enough batteries to run both AC units for an extended time anyway. Running AC for an hour will deplete a 200Ah battery bank. 400Ah will get you longer of course but then you are looking at $4k+ in to your batteries alone.

Here is a thread that has AC running off batteries for reference.
http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f1...ect-35985.html

The benefit of this scenario is that you can charge your battery bank at night from shore power and drain them during the day running AC. And your converter would be supplying your batteries with amps as well so reducing the draw on the batteries if you are plugged in.

Once you get that figured out and working I would then add in some solar. Probably two residential, 60 cell panels (265Watts x2) and a Morningstar MPPT 60 amp charge controller. Unless there is a charge controller with specific logic for lithium batteries but you should be able to adjust the Morningstar to suite the charge profile the batteries need. I would also get a good battery monitor such as the Trimetric or Pentametric monitors.

And most importantly if you do this you have to update this thread and let us know how it works out!

Some data from the internet...

Size of Air Conditioner Approximate Starting Watts Approximate Running Watts
13,500 btu 2800-3000W 1500-2000W
15,000 btu 3300-3500W 1300-1800W
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Old 10-19-2016, 03:14 PM   #5
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With two panels 530watts you can get a maximum of 530Watts/14volts = 38 amps times 5 hours of good sunlight a day gives ~ 190Ah of recharging ability.

So with no other loads on the battery and no shore power charging to help out you could run one AC unit for 1.5 hours and fully recover (charge) your batteries each day.

I would guess that you would need at least 300 to 400Ah of Lithium batteries to do this.

Hope that helps!

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Old 10-19-2016, 03:52 PM   #6
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First off WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!

Is your TT parked in the shade 99% of the time or in DIRECT Sunlight?

If you say SHADE, you are not going to produce enough SOLAR power to run 1 AC. You will need 5 hours of direct, bright (no clouds) of SUN every day to keep up with your system. If you have a partly cloudy day, your SOLAR production will be less than enough. Throw in 2 cloudy days in a row... well you can guess the outcome.

SOLAR is great, as long as you keep it in the BRIGHT sun, no clouds and no rainy days. If you insist on running your 2 AC units you will need to build a battery bank that will support no sun for at least 2-3 days, not to mention all the SOLAR you will need to keep them topped off.

$$$$

IF you are interested, here is the link to our "RVing with SOLAR" social group. There is a lot of good information about batteries, SOLAR panels, kits, and installations.

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If you just want the TT to be cooled off when you arrive and you have shore power, keep it hooked up and get a programmable timer to wire your thermostat into, that will only turn it on for the weekends. Add a manual switch to disable the timer for when you are at the site. Does the site have Internet connectivity? That een gives you more opportunities....
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Old 10-19-2016, 04:38 PM   #7
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You are talking about a MAJOR high power capacity system. Assume, for the moment, you need 50 amps, 2 circuits of 120VAC power. That is 500 amps at 12VDC. HUGE wire size and a HUGE battery bank.

First I do not believe you will be able to parallel 2 inverters. Nor will you be able to combine shore power with them. Synchronizing the 60Hz sine waves is NOT an easily accomplished. It is not like connecting DC power.

Dryer is 240V, correct? You will need a 240V inverter. Probably an expensive commercial item. Again you cannot series connect the Xantrex to do this.

The idea sounds good. Just not practical.
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Old 10-19-2016, 04:45 PM   #8
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I have 520watts of solar on top of my NorthPoint, Morningstar controller with two Trojan 6v.
I have a hard time keeping up with just the residential refrigerator for 3 days.
I can't see you ever not using shore power or a 3000watt genny.

I think you would save a ton of money by using the park 30a and running a seperate 20a cord from the post 20a receptical.
That should pretty much run your rig.

I'm in Canada too. I assume you purchased from Sicards?

You can get 260 watt panels from Mississauga for $250
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Old 10-19-2016, 10:02 PM   #9
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Thanks for the feedback so far. I'll be looking at the solar group and spend a bit reading through that. The RV is the test bed. I know I could do this much more easily a few ways, but since the RV is my recreation time, trying to get it to run as much on solar as possible is going to be a project for the sake of the project, not just to get the power output up because I couldn't make do without it, or other ways. (Just so it makes more sense before people start thinking I'm entirely insane and missing the boat.)

I'll try to answer the questions as well as I can so far, but keep in mind I don't have the FW or the equipment yet. It's all theoretical until I get started on this next summer. I know budget isn't very low on the parts I'm after, around $15k rough guess, but ballpark only since I'm still in rough planning mode.

When I do the project, I'll most likely link a thread here to follow since it will have to have enough details for anyone interested to be able to replicate, and to know what worked and what didn't. I'll also invite anyone local enough (just east of Toronto) to see in person either during build or afterwards. Expect a lot of questions before hand though since it's much easier to make mistakes and fix them while still planning than after purchasing everything.

I did buy the FW from Sicard. Haven't hear anything bad from people I've met that purchased there to date, and so far the experience has been pretty good with them. They were more than helpful with the motorhome I had before this FW, which I did not purchase from them. If you have information to share on the panels I'd appreciate that.

For the time being I'm thinking of starting with a pair of 260Ah lithium batteries, and the bank would grow as the project grows. I don't have the FW as yet, so I don't want to presume I have more space than I do, or sufficient ventilation for things when I don't.

The Xantrex inverters to connect together to give 6,000 Watts by design. The dryer is 120V, so I am not looking to get 240V out of this solution. If I move this over elsewhere if it works well, then I'll be on a gas dryer anyway. If I was doing 240V, again the Xantrex does that, but can only do power management and share power between all sources if the sources are also 240V. For this case, they won't be.

The RV will be in mostly sunlight. There are trees near it, but I would expect to still get a good 4 hours of sunlight even if I lose an hour on one end of the day due to shade. There will be some panels installed off the RV and feed into the same system. They won't be portable. They will get full sunlight. How many panels is yet to be determined.
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Old 10-20-2016, 07:22 AM   #10
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You are talking about a MAJOR high power capacity system. Assume, for the moment, you need 50 amps, 2 circuits of 120VAC power. That is 500 amps at 12VDC. HUGE wire size and a HUGE battery bank.

First I do not believe you will be able to parallel 2 inverters. Nor will you be able to combine shore power with them. Synchronizing the 60Hz sine waves is NOT an easily accomplished. It is not like connecting DC power.

Dryer is 240V, correct? You will need a 240V inverter. Probably an expensive commercial item. Again you cannot series connect the Xantrex to do this.

The idea sounds good. Just not practical.
CORRECTION: The Xantrex Freedom SW Series inverters the OP is referencing can, in fact, be series or parallel connected.
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Old 10-20-2016, 10:15 AM   #11
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Since you are sure you will be using a lot of high Amp loads (AC, Microwave...) you may want to look into going 24 volts or 48 volts for the inverter/charger/battery banks. They work better with high Amp loads, thinner supply cables, less Amps across them, less heat and you can buy a 24Volt or 48Volt DC to DC converter for your TT's 12 Volt system (low amp loads in the TT LED's, water pump, USB charger, Radio, fridge electronics, fans...). Design/Build it like a residential system.

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Old 10-20-2016, 11:01 AM   #12
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...snip... Design/Build it like a residential system.
Don
That's what crossed my mind too.

Start researching "Grid Intertie Systems"

240VAC split phase with synching/backfeeding to the grid.

The question becomes, "Can what you want to do be made portable enough to fit in & on your RV?"
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Old 10-20-2016, 11:20 AM   #13
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Another Canuck I bought my fiver used but it came from Sicards when new.

Magnum makes a hybrid inverter/charger that will source split between battery and AC.

The 265ish watt panels are the lowest $/w but they are large. I had planned to use them but it would be tight getting them to fit either side of the roof vents so I used 160w panels. I bought mine from wegosolar in BC as they have a pickup warehouse in Barrie for the panels (HES).

Read technomadia & wheelingit blogs to see what they have for solar installs which are along the lines of what you want to do. To me it seems like a lot of $'s to run an extra AC unit unless you are in very hot summer temps. In the winter in CA & AZ we really didn't need the AC very often.
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Old 10-20-2016, 02:16 PM   #14
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If you look at the differences between voltages you would probably agree that going with the higher voltage system 24 or 48 (even better) is the way to go.

Just one AC = about 15Amps @ 110VAC = 1650 Watts (while compressor is running)

12VDC system = (1650 watts / 12VDC = 138 Amp load on the batteries)

24VDC system = (1650 watts / 24VDC = 69 Amp load on the batteries)

48VDC system = (1650 watts / 48VDC = 35 Amp load on the batteries)

A lot less heat/load on the battery supply cables and less chance of something going wrong with all that amperage of a 12VDC system.

Yes most of the MPPT SOLAR charge controllers will handle 12, 24, 48Volt Systems, just change the program. A lot of the controllers max out at 150 Volts from the panels, and around 1000 watts, so if you go with more than(4) 300 watt residential panels (1200 watts), you may need 2 MPPT controllers or a larger residential SOLAR Charge Controller. The more watts, the longer the charge controller fans stay on (some can be noisy).

As far as available roof space, on my 284BHS I can fit 4 250Watt panels with no issues.

Just my thoughts

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Old 10-20-2016, 06:32 PM   #15
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Interesting post Don.
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Old 10-20-2016, 06:36 PM   #16
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Here's what 2 260w panels looks like on my roof.
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Old 10-23-2016, 10:08 PM   #17
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Solar / inverter / Li-ion system for 6,000 Watts continuous AC (12,000 Watt peak)

Hello,

I started a discussion in the Fifth Wheel section when I first joined the board a short while ago and thought I should move it to a more appropriate section.

My goal is to put in the Xantrex Freedom SW 3,000 Watt inverters tied together for 6,000 Watts of inverted power. I'll tie it with the control panel and Freedom Sequence intelligent power management so I can split power needs between full/limited/no short power, and batteries. I found half decent pricing on good quality 260Ah Lithium batteries, but may do some math and end up trying to fit in more or larger batteries than first planned.

To keep the system charged as much as I can without having to draw from shore power, I'm going to tie it to as much solar as I can fit, along with an MPPT charger, assuming there is no way to fit more than 1,000 Watts or so of solar on the roof.

This will be my first build of this sort of thing, so I'm hoping to get as much input as possible as it goes. I know the budget won't be as cheap as going with a different plan to require less power, or even just using a generator instead. This is as much for my recreation as anything else I'll do at the trailer, so I'm trying to do the best build I can within the scope. Not to say I want to spend more on the electrical than I did on the RV.

The trailer to get this mod is a 2017 NorthPoint 377RLBH. I'll be posting descriptions and photos of where I'm thinking of installing, the wire routing, and any work done as I go to make sure I explain in the right context.

I have a few things to research from the first thread before posting more, but I wanted to start with the right location for this post before starting anything of substance on the project.
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Old 10-24-2016, 05:26 AM   #18
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This seems severely expensive to run a SECOND air conditioner maybe 4 times a year.

I would understand if the camper was to be parked in the dessert for months at a time. But come on! Thousands of dollars to run a second AC?! For those few times a year that you are going to "melt" how about running a line from a sympathetic neighboring site?

Sorry to be a wet blanket on this, LOL... but huh? [emoji15]


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Old 10-24-2016, 05:37 AM   #19
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Hello,


My goal is to put in the Xantrex Freedom SW 3,000 Watt inverters tied together for 6,000 Watts of inverted power. I'll tie it with the control panel and Freedom Sequence intelligent power management so I can split power needs between full/limited/no short power, and batteries. I found half decent pricing on good quality 260Ah Lithium batteries, but may do some math and end up trying to fit in more or larger batteries than first planned.
Using a 3K inverter with 260Ah would be like hooking a cars headlight to 8 "D" batteries. It will work for a VERY short time. For 3K watt inverter and your proposed camping lifestyle you will need to up the battery power to at least 600Ah (to keep the initial compressor drain from dropping your battery voltage below 10.5 VDC where the inverters automatically shut down) and have a system voltage of at least 24 volts with 48 Volts the better option.

Don
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Old 10-24-2016, 07:11 AM   #20
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I am no expert on solar but what you want to do seems like overkill on a semi permanent site.
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