1/2 Ton Miracles and Magic

[Ottawasteve]

The biggest danger on the road (and the internet) is ignorance. To answer the OP, ignorance is the reason you see grossly overloaded TV's racing along the highway (because they don't know the TT is back there) completely oblivious to the weight ratings of their TV or the speed ratings of their TT tires. I know my half-ton setup, within manufacturer's specs, at 55mph on the highway is far safer than the one-tons with similar TT's and 5vers with the cruise control set at 80 mph to get to the campground 10 minutes earlier.

Ignorance also results in the internet weight police assuming that all half-tons are the same and because they had a bad experience towing with an overloaded F150 10 years ago, everybody towing over 6,000lbs with a "half-ton" falls into the grossly overloaded TV category. My current "half-ton" is completely different from my dad's 1980 Chev 1500 single cab and I would not dream of telling people what TT's are safe to pull with today's Chevys based on that experience with a Chevy 1500.

Confusion is what causes the new half-ton owner with the normally aspirated V-6 and 3.31 gears (for best in class gas mileage) to assume the same half-ton TV that they purchased also has the best in class towing of 12,500 lbs because it was clearly stated in the brochure and on television. If you have the half-ton Tundra, you can safely tow anything shorter and lighter than the space shuttle.

The manufacturer's ratings are there for a reason. Knowledge, understanding and discussion of weight capacities and ratings is great. It is unfortunate that the overwhelming majority (100 % in my case) of TT and TV salespeople are completely ignorant as to the purpose of weight ratings, but the fact is they aren't be sitting in my driver's seat when the setup is rolling down the highway.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by Ottawasteve

...snip

The manufacturer's ratings are there for a reason. Knowledge, understanding and discussion of weight capacities and ratings is great. It is unfortunate that the overwhelming majority (100 % in my case) of TT and TV salespeople are completely ignorant as to the purpose of weight ratings, but the fact is they aren't be sitting in my driver's seat when the setup is rolling down the highway.

THIS!! This right here! Why is it that salespeople can get away with making ignorant blanket statements like this? I think I've only ever heard of one salesman actually looking at a weight sticker on a truck. I've heard plenty of salespeople make statements like "sure, that truck can tow this rig all day long" without even a cursory understanding of the capacities of said truck. They take a sideways gander at the customer's truck parked across the lot and say "sure, you got this!" Who knows what gears that truck has? What engine it has? What its GVWR is? What the axle ratings are? What the hitch receiver rating is? They know NONE of that, yet they advise customers all day long that their truck "is a fine truck to tow that trailer".

Perhaps it's because not enough damage has been done or people killed from over-loaded vehicles? I don't know, I'm just spit-balling here. But what will it take for a sales person or a dealership to take some kind of ownership for those statements? Why are sales people not trained to properly evaluate a customer's tow vehicle? It's really not that hard, especially when it's your job and the safety of real people is on the line!

[RPreeb]

My truck gets muddy too, even though it's not a work truck. I live in a town so small that only the main street and the two streets to the school (K-12 in one building) are paved, so I live with mud every time the snow melts or a thunderstorm passes through. I clean it when practical, meaning when the streets dry up a bit and the temperature is 40 or above - usually takes a couple of days).

[bono]

In my opinion, this is not their job. The owners of TT should be educated and do their homework, instead of buying one ton truck and towing 80 mph, as Ottawasteve mentioned. I am European and I am still amazed how easy it is to get driving licence in the US and to be allowed to tow huge TT without any additional training. In Europe, first of all it is much more difficult to get certified and additionally, you need a separate licence to tow a large trailer... and the speed limits are lower...

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

(...) Why are sales people not trained to properly evaluate a customer's tow vehicle? It's really not that hard, especially when it's your job and the safety of real people is on the line!

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by bono

In my opinion, this is not their job. The owners of TT should be educated and do their homework, instead of buying one ton truck and towing 80 mph, as Ottawasteve mentioned. I am European and I am still amazed how easy it is to get driving licence in the US and to be allowed to tow huge TT without any additional training. In Europe, first of all it is much more difficult to get certified and additionally, you need a separate licence to tow a large trailer... and the speed limits are lower...

Don't get me wrong, I totally get that. It is indeed the customer's ultimate responsibility to determine what their individual capacities are. The problem is that people who have no idea what to look at beyond some cursory marketing material (for example "Maximum towing capacity") will listen to and trust their salesman not to lead them astray. This alone may be misguided, but it happens all the time. The salesperson is regarded as an "expert" by the inexperienced or uninitiated, and their advice will be trusted. How much do you question/verify what your doctor tells you? Your attorney? Your CPA?

I live by the old adage "trust, but verify", but not everyone does that. A salesperson should either train themselves how to properly answer the customer's question (by examining the actual specifications of the customer's vehicle), or refrain from answering the question at all and then put the onus directly on the customer. But that's not going to happen because it's not in their self-interest. They are trying to sell a trailer; unfortunately, what happens after that is of little concern to them. And I guess that's where my real problem is; they just don't care. And I know that's a generalization, and there are exceptions to the rule. But salespeople are largely not held accountable for what they say during the selling process.

[Crabman]

Yeah not all 1/2 tons are grocery haulers. My 1500 has hauled some mail too. And I usually just wear a baseball cap for a hat, lol.

[M&A]

Originally Posted by Crabman

Weight distribution - did you place an equal amount in the cab?

[Crabman]

Originally Posted by M&A

Weight distribution - did you place an equal amount in the cab?

I was firmly down on my Timbrens and no doubt was over my payload/rear axle rating. Yikes.

[Jay Dreamer]

OK....gotta ask!

See my signature.....bad choices?

[TommyAjax]

Originally Posted by Jay Dreamer

OK....gotta ask!

See my signature.....bad choices?

I am pulling an aluminum 2016 26BH with a 2014 Ram 1500 w 3.92 gears...I have the crew cab, but don't carry anything in the bed of the truck when towing. Just the wife and two boys (6 and 8) in the cabin with me...I figure we are at or slightly over our truck payload - based on CAT scale with only me in the truck, I had 900 lbs of payload available - advertised payload was ~1,450, sticker payload is ~1260). Wife and kids are about 300 lbs, tongue weight is around 700 lbs. We have pulled that combination about 12,000 miles this year.

[NVGun40]

Originally Posted by Jay Dreamer

OK....gotta ask!

See my signature.....bad choices?

Based on your signature elements, all looks good to me in my opinion.


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[Super Eagle]

Originally Posted by Ottawasteve

The biggest danger on the road (and the internet) is ignorance. To answer the OP, ignorance is the reason you see grossly overloaded TV's racing along the highway (because they don't know the TT is back there) completely oblivious to the weight ratings of their TV or the speed ratings of their TT tires. I know my half-ton setup, within manufacturer's specs, at 55mph on the highway is far safer than the one-tons with similar TT's and 5vers with the cruise control set at 80 mph to get to the campground 10 minutes earlier.

Ignorance also results in the internet weight police assuming that all half-tons are the same and because they had a bad experience towing with an overloaded F150 10 years ago, everybody towing over 6,000lbs with a "half-ton" falls into the grossly overloaded TV category. My current "half-ton" is completely different from my dad's 1980 Chev 1500 single cab and I would not dream of telling people what TT's are safe to pull with today's Chevys based on that experience with a Chevy 1500.

Confusion is what causes the new half-ton owner with the normally aspirated V-6 and 3.31 gears (for best in class gas mileage) to assume the same half-ton TV that they purchased also has the best in class towing of 12,500 lbs because it was clearly stated in the brochure and on television. If you have the half-ton Tundra, you can safely tow anything shorter and lighter than the space shuttle.

The manufacturer's ratings are there for a reason. Knowledge, understanding and discussion of weight capacities and ratings is great. It is unfortunate that the overwhelming majority (100 % in my case) of TT and TV salespeople are completely ignorant as to the purpose of weight ratings, but the fact is they aren't be sitting in my driver's seat when the setup is rolling down the highway.

I don't disagree that towing any trailer at 80 mph is not a wise decision, and is in fact dangerous. However, all things being equal, we can all agree that as the trailer weight becomes in excess of 7000 pounds, it becomes a smarter decision to tow with a heavy duty 250 or 350. There is a big difference in purpose, therefore design and materials, of the vehicle.

[scottyt24]

Originally Posted by Super Eagle

However, all things being equal, we can all agree that as the trailer weight becomes in excess of 7000 pounds, it becomes a smarter decision to tow with a heavy duty 250 or 350. There is a big difference in purpose, therefore design and materials, of the vehicle.

Even if I am within my limits on payload, hitch weight and axle weights and overall towing weights?

If that is the case, what numbers should I believe? If people reference dry weight or what a brochure says in a post, they get told don't go by those numbers, go by the stickers on the trailer and the door jams.

Now it sounds like even if they go by those numbers and stay under what the people who manufacturer said truck, they are still not doing things correctly, even though the people who built said truck have figured out through engineering and testing, what that truck can do.

[Seann45]

Dry weight does not mean a darn thing.. the only weight that ever matters is how heavy you are fully loaded and going down the highway.. sure a little half ton my tow it under ideal conditions but let the poop hit the fan on the highway you will be much safer in a 3/4 ton or 1 ton. Even though I can technically tow with a half ton I opted for a 3/4 ton diesel and to that I added drilled and slotted rotors and more aggressive brake pads.. Safety first. What is your families life worth to you?

[SkyBound]

I can't wait until the 2017 Chevy Colorado comes out with the little diesel in it. Aside from the fact it's probably the ugliest truck I've ever seen, I'm waiting to see one getting thrown around on the highway with a 5th wheel behind it because "hey it's a diesel!"

[smurfs_of_war]

Originally Posted by scottyt24

Even if I am within my limits on payload, hitch weight and axle weights and overall towing weights?

If that is the case, what numbers should I believe? If people reference dry weight or what a brochure says in a post, they get told don't go by those numbers, go by the stickers on the trailer and the door jams.

Now it sounds like even if they go by those numbers and stay under what the people who manufacturer said truck, they are still not doing things correctly, even though the people who built said truck have figured out through engineering and testing, what that truck can do.

If you're within your design numbers (limits) then you are fine to a point. Your vehicle has been designed and tested within those limits and *should* in ideal circumstances run all day every day for the expected lifetime of that vehicle at or below those limits. "Expected lifetime" is subjective though, and that's when the HD units take an advantage in their purpose built design. I think what was implied is physics and duty cycle. Sometimes Sir Isaac Newton is a miserable old goat and when you have a big nail, sometimes you need a bigger hammer. Overall mass can cover a lot of sins when physics is involved. At the same time, there is a tipping point where it can work against you I assume

[Subaru297]

Originally Posted by scottyt24

Even if I am within my limits on payload, hitch weight and axle weights and overall towing weights?

If that is the case, what numbers should I believe? If people reference dry weight or what a brochure says in a post, they get told don't go by those numbers, go by the stickers on the trailer and the door jams.

Now it sounds like even if they go by those numbers and stay under what the people who manufacturer said truck, they are still not doing things correctly, even though the people who built said truck have figured out through engineering and testing, what that truck can do.

I think one of the problems with the forum is that all we can do is advise based on those numbers. There are so many variables on what make a good tow vehicle and comfortable towing platform. In addition to that we have everyone's tolerance level, which will vary a lot.

Personally I think around 25' or less is a good, safe range for the average half ton out there. Yes I know there are more capable half tons but they are not your average one.

Yes if you go by the numbers there are capable half tons that can tow monstrous 34' trailers. One thing a lot of people don't consider is the weight of the TV vs the weight & size of the trailer. If I am towing a 7000lbs or 8000lbs trailer do I want to tow that with something weighing 7000lbs or 9000lbs. In most normal driving it doesn't matter and both will do the job. Drive through a high wind area or encounter an emergency situation and you will notice the lighter duty limitations.

We had a 2013 F150 towing a 7000lbs (loaded) trailer and the truck did well most of the time, and we were under all ratings with scaled weights, but any time there was strong winds, which is often where I live, you really felt it blowing the TT and TV around. We felt that we were too close to the edge capability wise and did not want to find out what happens in an emergency situation under those conditions. So we upgraded to a 3/4 ton. You still feel the wind affecting things but not nearly to the same extent and now I don't have to worry about every pound in the truck and trailer and I don't have to stop at the scale every trip. And I can safely tow with full water and waste tanks if I need to.

We probably could have added airbags and E rated tires but we would still be driving a light truck with a large sail (trailer) behind us.

Some people have no problems towing at or over the limit and others want that safety margin. It's all just personal preference. And until the DOT start requiring recreational vehicles to hit the scales it will remain that way.

I had a colleague with one of the new aluminum bodied F150's and I asked him what the payload on it was. His response was "Whatever I put in the box!"

[NVGun40]

Originally Posted by smurfs_of_war

If you're within your design numbers (limits) then you are fine to a point. Your vehicle has been designed and tested within those limits and *should* in ideal circumstances run all day every day for the expected lifetime of that vehicle at or below those limits. "Expected lifetime" is subjective though, and that's when the HD units take an advantage in their purpose built design. I think what was implied is physics and duty cycle. Sometimes Sir Isaac Newton is a miserable old goat and when you have a big nail, sometimes you need a bigger hammer. Overall mass can cover a lot of sins when physics is involved. At the same time, there is a tipping point where it can work against you I assume

You are correct sir. There are actually no real miracles or magic to it. These HD half tons are purpose built trucks and can do an admirable job within their limits. As one poster pointed out; during the manufacturing process half tons have a noticeably different frame and suspension than the 3/4 tons and up. Half tons are designed to get the better gas mileage and ride a lot smoother. Usually incorporating independent front, and gentler suspensions (even in the heavy duty tow and payload packages). Like you said though, physics come into play at some point. There comes a point when the trailer can fall within the weight limits of the truck, but the trailers overall mass and axle distances make it more unsafe and unstable in less than ideal circumstances. In those times, the heavier duty suspensions and weights of the 3/4 tons and up are capable of handling that mass and the physics much better and safer.
The same thing goes for 3/4 tons and one tons, etc., trailers can be within the weights limits of these rigs and still physics must play a part.
I think someone pointed it out; often times it is the ignorance of the owner and not the fault or inability of the truck. A half ton is a half ton for a reason, as is a 3/4 ton and 1 ton on up. Just because a properly equipped half ton can come close or equal a 3/4 ton in cargo and towing weight limits does not mean it is meant to do the same job or handle those weights in the same manner.

[RPreeb]

I had a friend back in the early 70's who had a Chevy 3/4 ton that was marketed as a "Camper Special", with beefed up suspension and a 396 engine and 3 speed automatic (I don't know what else may have been included in the package). My F-150 has more horsepower and is better set up overall for towing than that 3/4 ton truck was. Just a comment on how the technology has evolved in the last 40 years.

[scottyt24]

Originally Posted by Seann45

Dry weight does not mean a darn thing.. the only weight that ever matters is how heavy you are fully loaded and going down the highway

Right, that's my point. So someone says dry weight, this forum says go by stickers. Someone goes by stickers and is under weight and still asks for an opinion, but towing with a half ton, there are still people who tell that person they are crazy for doing so. I'm just highlighting the pattern I see on this forum sometimes when it relates to towing.

Typically, it comes across as anyone towing anything large with a half ton doesn't understand towing and the only people who know anything are the ones with 3/4 ton.

And yes, safety matters. Hence the reason that I tow at 62, in the right lane, pay attention while driving, and if it's windy and impacting my drive, I pull over and wait it out. I'm going camping. I'll get there when I get there.