Advice needed: New WD Hitch or Bigger Truck?

[Mikey]

Hi everyone. Here’s my dilemma – I’ve got a tow vehicle, WD hitch and trailer that work perfectly together on the road: no sway, no rear end squat (thanks in part to Timbrens), no front-end float, and plenty of power. But after a trip to the scales, I’m concerned about my payload weight, tongue weight and truck axle weights. I could REALLY use some advice! This is numbers-heavy, so I imagine only math junkies will wade through it all (SORRY!).

Okay, here are the facts:

Tow Vehicle: 2010 Ford F-150, 5.4L V8 Triton, Max tow-equipped
Actual curb WT: 6,020 (with full gas tanks and all installed options, no cargo or passengers)
Actual Cargo/Payload Capacity: 1,655
GVWR: 7,675
GVW w/passengers and Cargo (no trailer): 6,470
GCWR: 17,100
Max towing capacity: 11,200
Max tongue weight: 1,120

Trailer: 2017 Jayco White Hawk 28DSBH (33 feet long)
Dry WT (w/out propane): 6,356
Dry Tongue WT: 680
GVWR: 7,500
GAWR: 7,000 (3,500 per axle)
Loaded Trailer WT: 7,218 (all cargo, batteries/propane and mods)

As you can see, I’m good on truck and trailer GAWs and GCVR – permitted 17,100 and both vehicles combine for just 13,688. Calculating max towing weight as GCVR (17,100) minus truck GVWR (7,675), I’m good there as well at 9,425. As some may point out, the real challenge with modern ½-ton trucks is exceeding max tongue weight, max payload capacity or rear axle GAWR well before reaching the max towing limit.

Let’s start with tongue weight. My loaded tongue weight is 1,098 lbs, almost the max permitted. I’m not sure why. On the one hand, it’s roughly 15% of the loaded trailer weight, which has made for pretty smooth and sway-free towing. But when I do the math, it doesn’t add up:

680 (dry wt)
50 (WD Hitch)
75 (two 20 lb LP tanks)
42 (one battery)
847 lbs, which means there’s either an additional 296 lbs of tongue weight from onboard cargo (I was anticipating about 145 lbs) OR the dry tongue weight is actually above 680. Most of my cargo is carried in the front basement compartment, so maybe I DO need to redistribute some load.

Next is max payload capacity. Adding a loaded tongue weight of 1,098 to the truck’s GVW of 6,470 puts me at 7,568, close but within my truck GVWR of 7,675 - I was hoping for a LITTLE bit more wiggle room. I suppose I may be get it if I redistribute some trailer load to take weight off the tongue...

I’ve saved the most concerning weights for last – truck axles. Here’s where my WD hitch enters the discussion. I use the Andersen “no sway, no bounce” weight distribution hitch and I LOVE it. It's quiet, clean, disconnects and connects in a flash, backs up without removing, eliminates all sway and almost all bounce. BUT as some others have noted, it doesn’t seem to distribute enough weight on larger trailers. Look at these front axle and trailer axle numbers:

Front Axle GAWR: 3,750
Front Axle GAW (unloaded): 3,233
Front Axle GAW (w/truck loaded, no trailer): 3,570
Front Axle GAW (w/trailer hooked up, WD disengaged): 3,170 (- 400 lbs)
Front Axle GAW (w/WD engaged): 3,330 (return of 160 lbs)
Trailer Axle GAW (WD disengaged): 6,120
Trailer Axle GAW (w/WD engaged): 6,180

With the Andersen hitch at 10 threads showing I’m getting less than 50% return to my front axle weight (FALR). I MAY be able to tighten the WD hitch to 12 threads showing, which I’m guessing will get me to 50% FALR and move a few more pounds to the trailer axles as well. But even if I get there, I still have to deal with the truck rear axle numbers:

Rear Axle GAWR: 4,050
Rear Axle GAW (unloaded): 2,472
Rear Axle GAW (w/truck loaded, no trailer): 2,900
Rear Axle GAW (w/trailer hooked up, WD disengaged): 4,398 (348 > GAWR!)
Rear Axle GAW (w/WD engaged): 4,178 (128 > GAWR!)

With the Andersen I’m over my rear axle GAWR, but with plenty of room to redistribute weight to my front axle or trailer axles. I MIGHT be able to solve this with additional compression on the Andersen hitch to 12 threads, which will shift more weight to the steer and trailer axles. And I might be able to further lighten the tongue via load redistribution, but I felt like I had the whole setup perfectly dialed in – I’m concerned that becoming more tail-heavy will negatively impact towing. And even if it works, I’ll still be close to my rear GAWR.

So, if you’re still with me, here’s the million dollar question – do I need a better WD hitch, more truck, or am I unduly worried? I was thinking about the Equalizer or Blue Ox Sway-Pro (I don’t really need a ProPride or Hensley, plus they’d add a lot more weight to my tongue). A hitch that gives me 100% FALR would move another 240 lbs forward and I’m estimating another 80-100 lbs to the trailer axles. That would get my rear axle GAW to about 3,838 -3,858, which seems like enough breathing room. Trailer load redistribution might shave another 100 or so lbs off that number as well.

Before you advise me to get a ¾ ton truck, sure, I know that would solve most of these challenges in a heartbeat (except FALR), but I’m hoping to avoid that if possible (yet I know it might be necessary).

Thanks to all in advance for your help, all advice is appreciated!

[ttavasc]

Regarding the Andersen hitch - what size are the red poly-bushings? Are they the longer 2 7/8" ones or the shorter 2" ones? Shortly after I purchased my Andersen a couple of years ago they started changing from the longer and softer poly-bushings to the shorter and stiffer ones. This was in part to help improve the re-distribution of load back to the FA with heavier tongue weights. If you have the longer and softer poly-bushings tightening them up even further may increase the risk of having one split, which I have seen a couple of posts where folks reported that happening.

Regarding the tongue weight - I think I would do some load redistribution and see if you can get closer to 12-13% or around 900lbs. Even then the Andersen may still have some trouble moving enough back to the FA, especially if you have the longer and softer poly-bushings. When I was researching the Andersen I recall seeing numerous posts where folks with heavier tongue weights reported having some difficulty getting enough weight back to the FA.

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by ttavasc

Regarding the Andersen hitch - what size are the red poly-bushings? Are they the longer 2 7/8" ones or the shorter 2" ones? Shortly after I purchased my Andersen a couple of years ago they started changing from the longer and softer poly-bushings to the shorter and stiffer ones. This was in part to help improve the re-distribution of load back to the FA with heavier tongue weights. If you have the longer and softer poly-bushings tightening them up even further may increase the risk of having one split, which I have seen a couple of posts where folks reported that happening.

Regarding the tongue weight - I think I would do some load redistribution and see if you can get closer to 12-13% or around 900lbs. Even then the Andersen may still have some trouble moving enough back to the FA, especially if you have the longer and softer poly-bushings. When I was researching the Andersen I recall seeing numerous posts where folks with heavier tongue weights reported having some difficulty getting enough weight back to the FA.

Thanks, TT. I've got the more recent version with the shorter, stiffer 2" bushings. I've gotten them to 10 threads showing without looking as if they'd split, but 12 may be a bridge too far. Andersen says the hitch is rated for up to a 10K trailer but that might be an overstatement on their part. Still love the elegance and simplicity of the design, just not sure I can stick with it.

[Camper_bob]

Just on a first-blush review of your data, I'd say you need to check your numbers, and here's why:
I'm assuming all your weights are scaled in some way (either CAT or other)?

You list the loaded rear GAW of the truck at 2900 lbs ("loaded, no trailer"). You list your loaded trailer tongue weight as 1098 lbs. If you put those two together, you get 3998. However, you list your rear GAW as 4398 with trailer coupled and WDH disengaged. Where is that extra 400 lbs coming from if you simply coupled the 1098 lb tongue weight trailer to the loaded truck?

Also, I've seen mentioned that Ford's specification for WDH is to return 50% of the weight lost to the front axle. In your case, you're looking to return 200 lbs to the front axle (since you lost 400 lbs while coupled with WD disengaged), so 160 is not really that far off. I could be wrong about that Ford spec though.

Personally, with tongue weights where they are for you, I wouldn't use the Andersen. It's a great hitch and very innovative, but from everything I've read, it really doesn't play well with heavier tongues. That's just my opinion though, as I've recently replaced my WDH and put exhaustive amounts of research into which one I bought. OTOH, redistributing some of that tongue weight might go a long way to mitigate that potential limitation.

[ttavasc]

It's good that you've got the newer poly-bushings. Mine came with the longer ones but with my small camper tongue weight is only around 425-450lb so I've not had this kind of problem. I found out about the newer shorter ones after I ordered a spare and what I got didn't match. So I emailed Andersen support to figure out why the difference.

If you haven't emailed them you might consider doing that. I've done that twice - once on the new poly-bushing and another time when the friction cone seized up on us heading back from southern Nevada. Very prompt and helpful. Before giving up on the hitch I'd give them an opportunity to weigh in on things.

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by ttavasc

It's good that you've got the newer poly-bushings. Mine came with the longer ones but with my small camper tongue weight is only around 425-450lb so I've not had this kind of problem. I found out about the newer shorter ones after I ordered a spare and what I got didn't match. So I emailed Andersen support to figure out why the difference.

If you haven't emailed them you might consider doing that. I've done that twice - once on the new poly-bushing and another time when the friction cone seized up on us heading back from southern Nevada. Very prompt and helpful. Before giving up on the hitch I'd give them an opportunity to weigh in on things.

That's good advice. I've spoken with Jason (the tech in their installation videos) a few times and he's always super helpful. Thanks.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

Just on a first-blush review of your data, I'd say you need to check your numbers, and here's why:
I'm assuming all your weights are scaled in some way (either CAT or other)?

You list the loaded rear GAW of the truck at 2900 lbs ("loaded, no trailer"). You list your loaded trailer tongue weight as 1098 lbs. If you put those two together, you get 3998. However, you list your rear GAW as 4398 with trailer coupled and WDH disengaged. Where is that extra 400 lbs coming from if you simply coupled the 1098 lb tongue weight trailer to the loaded truck?

Also, I've seen mentioned that Ford's specification for WDH is to return 50% of the weight lost to the front axle. In your case, you're looking to return 200 lbs to the front axle (since you lost 400 lbs while coupled with WD disengaged), so 160 is not really that far off. I could be wrong about that Ford spec though.

Personally, with tongue weights where they are for you, I wouldn't use the Andersen. It's a great hitch and very innovative, but from everything I've read, it really doesn't play well with heavier tongues. That's just my opinion though, as I've recently replaced my WDH and put exhaustive amounts of research into which one I bought. OTOH, redistributing some of that tongue weight might go a long way to mitigate that potential limitation.

The 400 lbs comes from the front axle?. That seems like a lot though...

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

Just on a first-blush review of your data, I'd say you need to check your numbers, and here's why:
I'm assuming all your weights are scaled in some way (either CAT or other)?

You list the loaded rear GAW of the truck at 2900 lbs ("loaded, no trailer"). You list your loaded trailer tongue weight as 1098 lbs. If you put those two together, you get 3998. However, you list your rear GAW as 4398 with trailer coupled and WDH disengaged. Where is that extra 400 lbs coming from if you simply coupled the 1098 lb tongue weight trailer to the loaded truck?

Also, I've seen mentioned that Ford's specification for WDH is to return 50% of the weight lost to the front axle. In your case, you're looking to return 200 lbs to the front axle (since you lost 400 lbs while coupled with WD disengaged), so 160 is not really that far off. I could be wrong about that Ford spec though.

Personally, with tongue weights where they are for you, I wouldn't use the Andersen. It's a great hitch and very innovative, but from everything I've read, it really doesn't play well with heavier tongues. That's just my opinion though, as I've recently replaced my WDH and put exhaustive amounts of research into which one I bought. OTOH, redistributing some of that tongue weight might go a long way to mitigate that potential limitation.

Thanks, Bob. Yes, all the weights are from CAT scales, but you definitely found a math error on my part. I've got to re-check the ticket from the first weigh-in (truck only). I have the tickets for the next two weigh-ins handy (truck/trailer - no distribution and truck trailer - w/distribution), but I need to check them again against the first ticket.

You're right about Ford FALR - they say only 50% is required, but 100% is okay, so I've got room to move some weight forward (as well as to the trailer axles). And you're right, the Andersen has me close to 50% FALR already and can probably just about get me there with adjustment, but I need to move more than 50% forward to take some load off the rear axle.

Thanks for the advice - BTW, what WDH did you recently switch to?

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by Mikey

Thanks for the advice - BTW, what WDH did you recently switch to?

I went from a Fastway E2 that was overloaded to a Blue Ox SwayPro, and I couldn't be happier. I did a writeup on it here: http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f5...pro-39422.html

Well, I guess I could be happier with a Hensley, but then I would have A LOT more money, and would automatically be happier anyway. Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy fuel, campsite fees, and beer, and that's pretty much the same thing!

For what it's worth, I wouldn't give up on the Andersen yet (but then I don't give up easily). It seems to me like you should have enough truck too. I would be scratching my head on those numbers too.

[Mikey]

Bob,

Yup, after checking my math, the extra 400 is from the front axle, transferred to the rear before weight distribution is engaged. So my going in numbers are okay after all.

I tend to agree that I might be able to solve this with the Andersen and additional trailer load redistribution, but the Blue Ox has my attention. Any sense of what kind of weight distribution it's doing for you?

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by Mikey

Bob,

Yup, after checking my math, the extra 400 is from the front axle, transferred to the rear before weight distribution is engaged. So my going in numbers are okay after all.

I tend to agree that I might be able to solve this with the Andersen and additional trailer load redistribution, but the Blue Ox has my attention. Any sense of what kind of weight distribution it's doing for you?

Unfortunately, I haven't had it on a scale yet. I did the setup, test drove it, and determined it to be "good" while telling myself I would eventually scale the rig. I just haven't had a chance to do it yet. I used fender measurements during setup, and was able to get the fenders right where I wanted them. I could transfer more weight if I needed/wanted to.

For me, it tows beautifully so far. I've had it in some somewhat challenging conditions (crosswinds and passing big rigs), and it's done just fine. My wife was driving during our "biggest test" through New Mexico. We were traveling East/Southeast and had a very strong direct cross wind for an hour or two. She said it was a bit hard to handle, but she rarely drives, so I don't know how bad it really was. I was in the back seat entertaining our toddler. We were still maintaining 65 mph even then, so if it were me, and it started getting a bit "dodgy" I would have simply slowed down. We typically tow faster than that if conditions allow (and yes, my tires are up to the extra speed).

Something else to consider is that I'm dealing with a totally different animal. I'm towing more weight than you, and I'm doing it with a 3/4T crew cab 4x4, so my experience will likely be much different than yours.

That being said, I have no complaints about the hitch, and I'm totally confident in it and how our rig handles. The final decision came down to the Blue Ox or the Equal-i-zer; the deciding factor was the ease of set up on the Blue Ox.

[ROC-REQS]

Mikey,

Did you get a scaled tongue weight by unhooking the trailer and having the tongue on one scale and the trailer wheels on a 2nd scale?
This is how I've obtained tongue weights in the past.

From the numbers you posted wrt your TV, IMO the numbers to look at are the ones with the TV loaded with the trailer w/ WD engaged because that's how you'll be towing.


GCWR 17,100# - Scale 13,900# Way under
Note: Got scale # from loaded hitched truck + TT (7,800#+6180#)

GVWR 7,675# - Scale 7,800# - Diff 125# Over
GFAWR 3,750# - Scale 3,330# - Diff 420# Under
GRAWR 4,050# - Scale 4,178# - Diff 128# Over

Even though you're over on GVWR and GRAWR it's only be a little over a 100#. That's not much at all and you probably could lower your cargo to account for the weight. Or adjust your tongue weight by moving TT cargo from front to rear or removing some.

I calculated your tongue weight to be in the 1,200 - 1,300# range. Not knowing the layout of your trailer, can't comment on if it's high or not. I previously had a TT with a front kitchen that had a tongue weight of 1,240#. So that 1,200 - 1,300# range may be accurate. But it would be nice to have a scale weight of the tongue.

My opinion, you're ok as is, as long as you know your at your very limit (slightly over) and you can't add anymore cargo.

Hope this helps some.

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

Unfortunately, I haven't had it on a scale yet. I did the setup, test drove it, and determined it to be "good" while telling myself I would eventually scale the rig. I just haven't had a chance to do it yet. I used fender measurements during setup, and was able to get the fenders right where I wanted them. I could transfer more weight if I needed/wanted to.

For me, it tows beautifully so far. I've had it in some somewhat challenging conditions (crosswinds and passing big rigs), and it's done just fine. My wife was driving during our "biggest test" through New Mexico. We were traveling East/Southeast and had a very strong direct cross wind for an hour or two. She said it was a bit hard to handle, but she rarely drives, so I don't know how bad it really was. I was in the back seat entertaining our toddler. We were still maintaining 65 mph even then, so if it were me, and it started getting a bit "dodgy" I would have simply slowed down. We typically tow faster than that if conditions allow (and yes, my tires are up to the extra speed).

Something else to consider is that I'm dealing with a totally different animal. I'm towing more weight than you, and I'm doing it with a 3/4T crew cab 4x4, so my experience will likely be much different than yours.

That being said, I have no complaints about the hitch, and I'm totally confident in it and how our rig handles. The final decision came down to the Blue Ox or the Equal-i-zer; the deciding factor was the ease of set up on the Blue Ox.

Thanks, Bob, really helpful. We tow with a toddler too... 🙏🏻 😉

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by ROC-REQS

Mikey,

Did you get a scaled tongue weight by unhooking the trailer and having the tongue on one scale and the trailer wheels on a 2nd scale?
This is how I've obtained tongue weights in the past.

From the numbers you posted wrt your TV, IMO the numbers to look at are the ones with the TV loaded with the trailer w/ WD engaged because that's how you'll be towing.


GCWR 17,100# - Scale 13,900# Way under
Note: Got scale # from loaded hitched truck + TT (7,800#+6180#)

GVWR 7,675# - Scale 7,800# - Diff 125# Over
GFAWR 3,750# - Scale 3,330# - Diff 420# Under
GRAWR 4,050# - Scale 4,178# - Diff 128# Over

Even though you're over on GVWR and GRAWR it's only be a little over a 100#. That's not much at all and you probably could lower your cargo to account for the weight. Or adjust your tongue weight by moving TT cargo from front to rear or removing some.

I calculated your tongue weight to be in the 1,200 - 1,300# range. Not knowing the layout of your trailer, can't comment on if it's high or not. I previously had a TT with a front kitchen that had a tongue weight of 1,240#. So that 1,200 - 1,300# range may be accurate. But it would be nice to have a scale weight of the tongue.

My opinion, you're ok as is, as long as you know your at your very limit (slightly over) and you can't add anymore cargo.

Hope this helps some.

Thanks, Roc, that does help. And it's a rear bunkhouse/bath with mid-kitchen and front bedroom.

I've been calculating tongue weight by weighing the truck on its own. Then I weigh the truck/trailer hitched together but without WD engaged. I then total the truck axle weights together from that hitched/non WD weighing and subtract the truck-only weighing.

In my last weighing, truck alone was 6,300. Truck axles when hitched but no WD totaled 7,380. This means the tongue is adding about 1,080 lbs to the truck. So approx. 1,100 tongue weight seems right (I hope).

Your advice is great, I'll try to redistribute some weight in the trailer and dial in my WD hitch some more.

[Mikey]

So I spoke to an Andersen tech today. What follows willl probably only make sense to other Andersen owners. Anyway, he said I definitely can expose 12 or more threads to increase compression on the urethane bushings that distribute weight, the bushings can handle the added compression. He also suggested that I shorten the Andersen hitch chains by bypassing a link on each with a 1/2" or 5/8" threaded quick link rated to at least 2,200 lbs.. This way I can increase weight distribution with fewer turns of the nuts/fewer threads exposed. Lastly, he's mailing me additional washers to put on the end of the bushings to prevent washer distortion under more compression. Guess we'll know in the spring if this does the trick. He seemed confident that the Andersen can do the job.

[Overloaded]

Well that's funny, I was going to suggest you add more washers. I had done the same thing almost to a tee as you. Well when I tightened a few more threads I actually bent the washers into a cone shape(while traveling). I didn't not see any improvement on the front axle.
I had other issues with the Andersen. I switched to the Blue Ox and seen a difference in distribution. It did its job.

[ttavasc]

Originally Posted by Mikey

So I spoke to an Andersen tech today. What follows willl probably only make sense to other Andersen owners. Anyway, he said I definitely can expose 12 or more threads to increase compression on the urethane bushings that distribute weight, the bushings can handle the added compression. He also suggested that I shorten the Andersen hitch chains by bypassing a link on each with a 1/2" or 5/8" threaded quick link rated to at least 2,200 lbs.. This way I can increase weight distribution with fewer turns of the nuts/fewer threads exposed. Lastly, he's mailing me additional washers to put on the end of the bushings to prevent washer distortion under more compression. Guess we'll know in the spring if this does the trick. He seemed confident that the Andersen can do the job.

Have you had any trouble with the frame brackets slipping? It can cause the some of the weight to come off the front axle as you are rolling down the road. That was something I never did cure and ended up having the tack weld done that they detail in the install manual. Because of that and the fact that my spare bushing is smaller I carry the necessary items to shorten a chain in the event I split one of longer bushings as re-adjusting the frame bracket is no longer an option.

It sounds like there is a path to getting it dialed in and I think it will be interesting to see if you lose any of the bounce suppression with the bushings compressed more.

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by ttavasc

Have you had any trouble with the frame brackets slipping? It can cause the some of the weight to come off the front axle as you are rolling down the road. That was something I never did cure and ended up having the tack weld done that they detail in the install manual. Because of that and the fact that my spare bushing is smaller I carry the necessary items to shorten a chain in the event I split one of longer bushings as re-adjusting the frame bracket is no longer an option.

It sounds like there is a path to getting it dialed in and I think it will be interesting to see if you lose any of the bounce suppression with the bushings compressed more.

TT,

Nope, I haven't had any frame bracket slippage, the set screw and the compression on the chains seem to do the job of keeping them in place. We'll see how it goes, I guess. Wish I hadn't winterized and covered the rig, now I'm itching to experiment...

[Mikey]

Originally Posted by Overloaded

Well that's funny, I was going to suggest you add more washers. I had done the same thing almost to a tee as you. Well when I tightened a few more threads I actually bent the washers into a cone shape(while traveling). I didn't not see any improvement on the front axle.
I had other issues with the Andersen. I switched to the Blue Ox and seen a difference in distribution. It did its job.

Good to know, thanks. I have their newest washers, which are larger and thicker, but he suggested doubling up JUST in case. I'm definitely skeptical at this point, but I can certainly give it a shot before switching hitches.

Do you like the Bue Ox? How would you compare the ride to the Andersen?

[Overloaded]

Originally Posted by Mikey

Good to know, thanks. I have their newest washers, which are larger and thicker, but he suggested doubling up JUST in case. I'm definitely skeptical at this point, but I can certainly give it a shot before switching hitches.

Do you like the Bue Ox? How would you compare the ride to the Andersen?

It handled the TT a lot better. The ride was a bit more harsh but I enjoyed harshness vs. sway. Hook up may even be easier than Andersen. Some grease on the ball, but otherwise clean and neat.