Braking Expectations?

[clubhouse]

I have had 2 TT, 3 TV, and 2 different Prodigy P2 --- never have I been able to lock the TT breaks with the TV. Pulling the breakaway pin absolutely locks the breaks. I feel as though I have sufficient breaking when towing so I stopped worrying about it.

[North of 49°]

Mine's set at 10 as well, and the braking feels adequate. The amount of pressure I have to apply to the brake pedal with the controller at 10 and the trailer connected is the same as when I'm not towing -- which tells me that the trailer brakes are stopping their portion of the combined weight. I could never get the trailer brakes to lock up either with this truck or my old Silverado with an original Prodigy controller. But like I said, even at 10, everything stops the way it's supposed to.

[Marcm157]

Have you gone into the trailer setup screen under options? There is an option to set breaking control to low, medium or high. The default is low. My F150 low would barely stop the trailer even with gain turned up very high I went to Medium and was able to drop my gain back down considerably.

[Levinehikeski]

Originally Posted by homer1959

My God , what an answer ..... that really help ! Like if the f150 brake controler is too small for a fiver..... and you could see from your keyboard that he was driving too fast.... wow !!! Now we all know what when wrong...thanks for your input

He was driving to fast/not setup correctly, how else did he end up in the middle of the intersection? I'm sorry if the original poster thought I called him an idiot, that wasn't my intention, he is asking for advise, so I gave mine.
If my very brief research is correct, an f150 can tow about 10,000 lbs, his 5er is about that, putting him at a tow capacity that is less than ideal in my book, hence saying your expectations are to high.

Disclaimer: this response is not to start a back and forth but I felt "called out" to clarify, and to add to the post.

[bap]

A few things I would have checked out before changing your brake controler.
1) Most pickups have a proportional control valve that changes how much braking force is applied to the rear wheels vs. the front. This valve increases the rear brakes and is controlled by the amount of load on the rear of the truck. Possibly this is not working right, in years past, this valve would cause problems as vehicles got older. I am not sure if Ford uses these or not as I am not a Ford fan.
2) Check the adjustment of the trailer brakes. Even in a new trailer, the brakes could be out of adjustment.
3) Make sure the wheel seals on the trailer aren't leaking grease which will severely reduce braking.
4) Pull the breakaway switch and check each wheel individually to make sure all the magnets are getting power. The wiring connections on trailer axles is sometimes shaky at best leading to poor electrical transfer.
Many people scream that a 1/2 ton is not capable and everybody should have a 1 ton, but a properly set up 1/2 ton with good working equipment should work very well.

[Gobbledot]

My thoughts are that it doesn't matter if its a 150 250 or 350 if the brake controller and brakes are working properly you should be able to lockup the brakes if needed and by that I am meaning with the boost set high or the manual override pulled. Am I wrong or thinking incorrectly?

[aqua]

my dodge 1500 and a 26bh with a prodigy3 would lockup the trailer wheels until I adjusted it down to 4

[Bookemdanno]

I guess I'm the odd ball here, but what else is new! I have my Ram 2500 set to heavy electric @ 6.5. If I set it at 8.5, I can lock the brakes on the 5er (377). So I had to keep backing the gain down to 6.5 until I got a nice smooth stop. Sorry, I know it's not much help, I'm just the odd duck in the pond I guess!

[klassic]

Originally Posted by Bookemdanno

I guess I'm the odd ball here, but what else is new! I have my Ram 2500 set to heavy electric @ 6.5. If I set it at 8.5, I can lock the brakes on the 5er (377). So I had to keep backing the gain down to 6.5 until I got a nice smooth stop. Sorry, I know it's not much help, I'm just the odd duck in the pond I guess!

That irks me... After lots of diagnosis by my dealer, he tells me that's how they work. They are acceptable. I can't lock them at 20mph with full power (I could make one of them squeak) and neither could the dealer in his truck (but they were a little better).

And Danno can lock a much heavier 377.
I wish I had access to someone's rig that is known to lock up.

[Bookemdanno]

Originally Posted by klassic

That irks me... After lots of diagnosis by my dealer, he tells me that's how they work. They are acceptable. I can't lock them at 20mph with full power (I could make one of them squeak) and neither could the dealer in his truck (but they were a little better).

And Danno can lock a much heavier 377.
I wish I had access to someone's rig that is known to lock up.

Come down here to TX and I'll try it for you

[Gobbledot]

Bottom line is Jayco in my opinion is slacking somewhere in their brakes. I have had older Jay's and the brakes worked correctly but I can't say that about my new one

[BuddyRay]

Took the unit back to the storage yard Friday. Forgot that there are two brake settings on the F150 - one is a Low/Med/High intensity setting in the configuration page. Then there is the 1-10 setting on the brake controller.
I forgot my intensity was set to Med. Changed it to HIGH and the controller to 10.
I still don't feel like the brakes are strong enough and I definitely can't lock them up, but it's better - and tolerable for now.

I need to figure out a way to determine the actual voltage being sent to the brakes during operations. Need to do that under the dash somewhere I guess.

Still haven't tried pulling the breakaway switch test yet - Didn't have time Friday.

[Jm9301]

DO you have a multimeter? if so have a friend vary how much brake pressure is applied while you check the correct pin for the electrical hookup with the multimeter.

[BuddyRay]

Yes, I have a voltmeter but that wouldn't work well. The Ford brake controller doesn't send power to the brakes when the vehicle is stopped like a Prodigy does. The Ford controller has to sense the vehicle stopping.


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[ctbailey]

Originally Posted by homer1959

My God , what an answer ..... that really help ! Like if the f150 brake controler is too small for a fiver..... and you could see from your keyboard that he was driving too fast.... wow !!! Now we all know what when wrong...thanks for your input

I totally agree with levinhikeski. Half ton pickup hailing way too much trailer, of course stopping will be the problem. The engines on those ecos are super strong. But there's a reason ford still classifys them as half ton trucks.

If a 30 foot fiver does not overload that f150 I'd be surprised.

[Jm9301]

Interesting on the factory control, maybe that's where the issue is?

[BuddyRay]

Reviving a pretty old thread here - but I finally got my wife to help me check the voltage on the TV break (pin 2). I had a *facepalm* moment when I realized that I had two 7 way connectors in the truck (one in the bed and one on the bumper). Hooked the meter to the bumper while the 5er was hooked to the bed connector and had wife use manual control on dash. I verified the following:
On a 2015 F150 with Integrated controller and "intensity" set to HIGH, a Gain setting of 10 does produce 10v on pin 2.
Based on my old TT which would lock the brakes up at about 2.5 volts, that's a lot of power. SO I now believe the problem with weak brakes is in the Jayco.

Something else interesting. Although we've had this 26.5 Eagle HT since March, this past weekend was the first time I've towed it in a driving rain (we're in a drought in Ga. folks!) This is also the first time I felt like the brakes were really working. They were still on High, Gain 10. And I still couldn't lock the brakes up. But if I used the manual control I could stop both the Truck and 5er in a reasonable distance with just the electric brakes. And I could feel the trailer helping me stop under normal conditions. In fact the brakes were surging a bit like the drums needed turning.

NOW the question is - why did it work in the rain and will it still work once the brakes dry out (still raining as I type this a day later). Possible reasons?
1) I had grease on the plates and the magnets were sliding - rain washed off some of the grease?
2) I have a loose electrical connection and the water in a junction or wire nut improved the connection temporarily?
3) It just decided to start working - and had nothing to do with the rain.

In any event - I think I now have enough data for a trip to the Dealer.

[mike837go]

Originally Posted by BuddyRay

...snip....
I verified the following:
On a 2015 F150 with Integrated controller and "intensity" set to HIGH, a Gain setting of 10 does produce 10v on pin 2.
Based on my old TT which would lock the brakes up at about 2.5 volts, that's a lot of power. SO I now believe the problem with weak brakes is in the Jayco.
...snip...
In any event - I think I now have enough data for a trip to the Dealer.

Keep in mind that electric trailer brakes do not work purely on voltage.

The signal to the brake magnets is adjusted using Pulse-Width-Modulation.

A full 13-14V (as supplied by the alternator), 10+Amps (available) is sent as a square wave with an adjusted duty cycle. 10% on, 90% off = very weak braking. 50/50=moderate braking. 100% = Full braking.

Trying to measure the DC Volts of that signal will get you nowhere very quickly. An oscilloscope will give you much more useful information.

Also keep in mind that automakers are in the ABS mindset right now. Total lockup of any brakes is unacceptable.

On the other hand, when I replaced the axle in my first TT, I found the wires to the brakes had been pinched under one of the U-bolts holding the axle to the spring, shorting both to ground. The original owner must've gone nuts trying to get the brakes to work properly (I found evidence of at least 4 magnet changes). After the axle swap, I could adjust the brake controller so the trailer handled it's own mass very nicely.

So, you are pretty sure you have a problem.

Did you try pulling the breakaway yet? See if it is a controller issue or a trailer issue.

[bansai]

Have you done the trailer brake test while hooked up?

When I was first dialing in the gain setting on my ford, I went through their directions. They have you set the gain around 6 I believe initially, drive 25mph somewhere without traffic behind you and then manually hit that lever on the brake controller. Per Ford, if your trailer brakes don't lock up, dial up the gain until they do--- and then lower the gain 1 notch so you are basically just shy of full lockup when you manually apply full TT brakes. I have my gain set at 9. (I thought that was a bit high... but it's what I needed)... 10 doesn't sound completely unreasonable based on my experience so far with this one. Maybe our TT brakes just suck?

[Rustysocket]

I have towed heavy trailers with my '09 F350 with integrated controller. Using the setup guide as per ford my Arctic Fox brakes would lock using a setting of 8 during the low speed/manual application test. My brakes on my Jayco will not lock with the controller maxed, however i can definitely feel they are working.

When I pull the emergency pin they are locked.

Keep in mind when you pull that pin to test the system you do not want to keep it pulled for long. Test the system and get it back in place. Your throwing full voltage from your batteries to the system and if left pulled it will melt wires and ruin the brakes.

I'm not sure what my expectations should be or whether or not I consider this a problem yet. I don't feel I have an issue stopping the rig and while I haven't tried to lock everything up and do a total panic stop I have been fairly agressive just testing the systems. I'll probably talk to my dealer about it and have him give it a look over this winter.