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Old 05-21-2017, 04:30 PM   #1
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Check my CAT numbers please

2500 Sierra and 27 BHS all loaded (except food) and 40 gallons of water in freshwater tank.

Truck only:



No WDH bars:



With WDH:



With WDH, and freshwater tank empty:



Before hook up:
Front fender height 39 7/8
Rear fender height 43

After hook up:
Front fender height 39 3/4
Rear fender height 41 3/4

I think my numbers look good, right?

My main concern now is tongue weight. My dealer put a 1k/10k Equalizer on when we bought the trailer (without asking us or giving us any input on the weight rating). I was afraid this was going to be an issue. Obviously we like to pack heavy. I think we are way over the WDH's rating on tongue weight. How concerning is this? Do I need to make a big stink about them giving us a 14k Equalizer?

Any and all suggestions appreciated.

Thanks.


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Old 05-21-2017, 04:58 PM   #2
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It looks like the tongue is 1480# and the TT GVW is 8180# (18%). I'd say the tongue is a bit heavy as my understanding is it should be in the 12-15% range. It also looks like the hitch may be under sized (I'd wait for more experienced voices to check in tho). I'm looking at the top two tickets.
The third ticket suggests the bars add 300# back to the front which looks ok to me (experienced voices?)
I'd also suggest comparing the TV axle weights against the GAWR numbers on the sticker and the tongue weight against the receiver weight limits.
Do you plan to travel with full tanks?
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Old 05-21-2017, 05:12 PM   #3
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Check my CAT numbers please

We were thinking about doing local trips with water in the tanks. 40 gallons is half our capacity. Thought maybe save a few minutes at check-in. We can easily leave the waster out, but looks like the tanks are pretty much centered over the axle,so the majority of that 300lbs was on the trailer axle. Long trips would definitely be empty tanks.

I will try to move something to the back to lighten up the tongue, but unfortunately we don't have rear storage. There is an awkward area under the bunks that is a real PITA to get into, and won't fit anything too big.

So moral of the story, assuming I can get tongue weight down to 15%, is that still too much for a 1k Equalizer to handle?

And a question I forgot to ask: The tongue weight as far as what you consider for the hitch rating, is the tongue weight with no bars hooked up right? So 1480bs in my case. You don't go by the weight added to the rear axle after the WDH bars are installed? 1040lbs in my case.

Thanks again.

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Old 05-21-2017, 05:33 PM   #4
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Check my CAT numbers please

More pics:







And is there a general rule of thumb for moving weight from the front to the back, as far as how much it effects tongue weights? As in moving 50lbs from the front storage to the back storage, gets you 50lbs plus X off the tongue weight, due to a seesaw-like effect?


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Old 05-21-2017, 06:42 PM   #5
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Been awhile, doing it off top of my head. Use math outlined in CAT SCALE "Sticky Thread" to double check.
http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...v-tt-3871.html

Tongue Wt. 1060
Unloaded Tow Vehicle Gross = 7960 (4340 + 3620)
You hitched TT to TV. Now Gross TV = 9020 (3920 + 5100)
Difference = Tongue Wt 1060 (9020 - 7960)

GVW for TT = 7,760
= Gross (TV + TT) - Gross (TV) = (15720) - (7960) = 7,760

Tongue Wt % of TT GVW
= Tongue Wt (1060 / 7760) * 100 = 13.7%

Conclusions:
1. I like your fender heights after WDH, I would be good with those numbers.
2. Looks like your 1060 on Tongue Wt., 60Lbs over (6%). Probably within safety factor, but out of limits. Needs to be corrected with proper spring bars for 15% of TT GVWR.
Not knowing your TT GVWR, I would assume estimating up to 15% tongue weight, they should have installed spring bars to match your maximum tongue weight for 15% of GVWR for the TT.
3. Need to check your receiver rating. My Tundra was rated for 1,000lb Tongue Wt.
4. Tongue weight as a % of TT = 13.7% (within recommended range 12-15%)
5. Your front axle wt is 110lbs less than TV w/o TT. I am always happy at 100lbs difference. You could go 1 more bolt higher on your "L" brackets to put more tension on spring bars. I did this on mine recently and only changed fender by 1/8". Otherwise, if it tows good I would just upgrade spring bars. (You will need to recheck #'s after changing spring bars).
6. Check that Combined Gross Vehicle Weight (Gross TV + Gross TT) 15,740 does not exceed CGVWR of TV.
7. I would check height of TT front to back. I target 1" drop in the front.
Measure ground to reference point on TT front and back. Front should
be ~1" less than rear.

Double check my math. I am getting a different tongue wt. and TT GVW than you guys?

Best regards,
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearcat77 View Post
More pics:







And is there a general rule of thumb for moving weight from the front to the back, as far as how much it effects tongue weights? As in moving 50lbs from the front storage to the back storage, gets you 50lbs plus X off the tongue weight, due to a seesaw-like effect?


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Almost. If you take 50# off the tongue end the tongue gets 50# lighter. Put that 50# on the rear the tongue gets another 50# lighter. So moving 50# from front to back makes the tongue 100# lighter. This is a "perfect" description. If the front 50# is half way between the hitch and wheels, removing it only makes the hitch 25# lighter.
The third pic looks good. TV and TT look pretty level.

The WDH doesn't really move weight from the rear axle to the front axle. It's like a lever or spring at the hitch trying to raise the hitch. It makes the rear axle weigh less and the front axle and TT weigh more. Hope that makes sense.

Short version, if your Rear GAWR is greater than 5100# and the receiver max weight is larger than 1480# you are probably good to go.
I do think the hitch is a bit under sized tho.

The Front/Rear GAWR from the TV and GVWR from the the TT would complete the picture.
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHorse1 View Post
snip...... The WDH doesn't really move weight from the rear axle to the front axle.....snip
In principle it does......, the effect of the spring bar leveraging/force initiated at the WDH ball mount continues through the TV's receiver/TV frame, and TT A-frame....., distributing weight off the TV's rear axle.

How a WDH works:

RV.Net Open Roads Forum: Towing: Weight Distribution (WD) Hitch --- How it Works

Bob
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Old 05-21-2017, 07:57 PM   #8
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Check my CAT numbers please

Ok , let's try to complete the picture.

2016 Sierra 2500.
Max tongue weight = 1,500lb
Max trailer weight = 13,000lb
GCWR = 21,100lb

(2017 specs):







2017 27BHS:





I think my first goal will be to try to get at least 100lbs out of the front storage, and move that into the rear storage under the bunk. Hopefully, that takes a couple hundred pounds off the tongue. I'll hit the scales again after that.


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Old 05-21-2017, 08:26 PM   #9
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So, your tow vehicle is rated at Payload = 2498 - tongue weight 1060 = 1,438 lbs for passengers, gear and driver weight in excess of 150lbs.

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR ) for TT = Weight from factory as built 6641 + maximum cargo of 1609 = 8250 (currently at 6700-6800)looks good

Sizing of WDH tongue weight = 15% of 8250 = 1,237.5 lbs (WDH is undersized if rated 1,000)

If your maximum hitch rating is 1500lbs, then a minor adjustment in tongue weight should get you below 1,000 that your WDH is rated for.

TV CGWR = 21,100 currently at 15,720 = good

Being a 2500, you should be golden once you change spring bars.

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Old 05-22-2017, 05:33 AM   #10
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Had a somewhat lengthy reply, but received a "token expired" message....

Oh well, I'll try to remember everything.

Dougs tw of 1060lbs is also what I came up with doing the math in my head. All the rest of the numbers looks good except the wd bars tw rating.

I wouldn't lighten the tw by 200lbs. Based on your weight slips, but having a 860lb tw you would only have an 11% tw. Which when having a lighter tw, sway is a higher possibility due to the tw being to light. Yes, you have sway control with your model wdh, but the wdh can and will only do so much. You still need to make sure you have the tt loaded properly so the wdh can do its job to the best of its ability.

Even at 15% tw based on the tt gvwr, you would barely be over the 1200/120000lb wd bars rating. It would be better to mover ~100lbs off the tw to the axel area with a 15% tw vs 13%. Still have "wiggle room" to adjust if and when needed. So talk to the dealer about exchanging the system as you can't just swap the bars with your system.

If you can, reweigh with 5 trips across the scale.
Truck only
With full water: truck and tt with wdh, and without wd bars hooked up.
Without water: repeat above with and without the wd bars hooked up.
This will give you/us an idea just how much water may change the tw so you know.


The trucks rated payload does not take into account 150lbs for the driver. The tow rating have occupants "built in", but not the payload rating. Everywhere the payload is mentioned (door sticker, manual, etc) it states "ALL OCCUPANTS and...". The driver is an occupant. No where have I ever found it stating "all occupants except the first 150lbs for a driver". Though it is possible I just haven't found it is that is the case..... Anyone find info stating this?

The wdh does transfer (essentially "move") weight from the rear axle.

Think I remembered everything.
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:11 AM   #11
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Thanks for double checking my math Need-a-vacation.
I think you are correct on 150 lb driver being included in tow rating but not payload.
Good to clarify these definitions.

Here's a thread where we were discussing payload on my set up and inclusion of 150lbs for driver.

http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...pkg-38398.html

Here's another reference in the towing section.

http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...ting-3866.html

Here is another reference where it states as you do about tow rating.

Pickup Truck Payload & Towing Capacity - What does it mean to call a pickup truck a '1/2 ton truck' (also known as a 'half-ton truck')? | HowStuffWorks

Best regards,
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Old 05-22-2017, 06:30 AM   #12
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Thanks for everyone's replies. When I said I would try to lighten the tongue weight by a couple hundred pounds, I was thinking my tongue weight was 1480. Now that I realize it's 1060, I'm not going to do that. I will still move a few items back, to put me right at 1000 on the tongue. I think that will get me within specs for my current Equalizer hitch, will get me real close to the golden 13% tongue weight, and should add a few more pounds back to the steer axle.

Thanks everyone.


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Old 05-22-2017, 09:32 AM   #13
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I've been having a behind the scene discussion with Doug about tongue weight and he's pointed out an error in my thinking about tongue weight. I was using just the change in weight of the TV rear axle and should have used the change in Gross weight of the TV.
Hats off to Doug for pointing this out to me.
My apologies to bearcat for feeding you some bad info.
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Old 05-22-2017, 09:36 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHorse1 View Post
I've been having a behind the scene discussion with Doug about tongue weight and he's pointed out an error in my thinking about tongue weight. I was using just the change in weight of the TV rear axle and should have used the change in Gross weight of the TV.
Hats off to Doug for pointing this out to me.
My apologies to bearcat for feeding you some bad info.


No problem. I was using the same math until Doug corrected me as well. Sure am glad I don't need to shed 400lbs in gear!


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Old 05-23-2017, 10:21 AM   #15
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Doug,

YW!!!

Bear,

Gotcha on changing the tw only slightly vs when you thought you had 1400+ lbs of tw!!

I know once I learned of the more to towing than a tow rating, we were watching our tw and I would try to load as much over the axles or just in front of them as possible. Keep the tw up, but not insanely heavy.

I would still see if the dealer will swap to the 1200lb bars.

Good luck!
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Old 05-23-2017, 10:46 AM   #16
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Working on getting that swap. All they keep telling me is that "in their vast years of experience, no one with a 27BHS has ever needed a 12k hitch". I keep telling them that all the data I have, all the advice I'm getting from you esteemed JOF experts, and from Progressive Manufacturing themselves, says I want just over 1,000lb on the tongue for an 8,000 pound trailer, and therefore, a 12k hitch. I'll keep working my way up the chain of command, but unfortunately, 6 months after purchase, I'm at their mercy.

Either way, I'm sure I'll be fine. Had a guy tell me last night not to worry, he's driving around with 1,800lbs on his 14k Equalizer.[emoji15]. Would like to try the 12k though, cause I get a lot of that up and down "porpoising" feeling on side roads, and saw a post on here that the 12k took care of that.


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Old 05-23-2017, 12:14 PM   #17
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Check my CAT numbers please

Ok, made some progress. Person #3 at the dealer says they will verify the tongue weight themselves, and if over 1000lbs, they will put the 12k Equalizer on. I don't like the insinuation that I'm an idiot, the CAT scale is wrong, and Equalizer's website is wrong, but as long as I end up with the hitch I should have, I'll deal with it.

And even though I asked multiple times, they refused to answer my question, which was: "As a dealer, are you comfortable putting hitches on trailers that can't handle 15% of the gross weight of the trailer?"

Got an appointment in July for the ceiling light recall. So maybe, just maybe, I'll have a completely functional, and safe to use trailer, after that.

You should have to take a 6 month training course to buy one of these things, because relying on the dealer gets you nothing but bad information.


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Old 05-23-2017, 12:23 PM   #18
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You should have to take a 6 month training course to buy one of these things, because relying on the dealer gets you nothing but bad information.
Truer words have never been typed!
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:04 PM   #19
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I've been having a behind the scene discussion with Doug about tongue weight and he's pointed out an error in my thinking about tongue weight. I was using just the change in weight of the TV rear axle and should have used the change in Gross weight of the TV.
Hats off to Doug for pointing this out to me.
My apologies to bearcat for feeding you some bad info.
Thanks for the good discussion RedHorse. I've been camping for a couple days and just caught up on this thread. I made the same error 4 years ago setting up my 165 Sport and Toyota 4Runner for a trip to California. Bob and another towing expert caught my error. Best regards, Doug
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:21 PM   #20
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Bear,

Glad to hear it sounds like the dealer will swap out the wdh!!! That is one downside of the Equal-I-Zer system is the wd bars just can't be swapped, it requires swapping the head and bars. A great system otherwise!!!

And you're right about a training course being needed!!! I know when I started searching to get a refresher of setting up the wdh to a new truck and learned about payload..... But I had a truck "rated to tow 9500lbs....". Lol We all have learned at one point or another.

Keep us posted on how things go.

Safe travels to all!!!
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