Scarey Travels

[BC Boondocker]

The more I look at these things the more I get bothered by it. I see all these people who obviously are oblivious to what their units should/could haul and have no idea that even if they 'can' its still not legal. (the vehicles are legally rated so.......)

I was absolutely Meticulous about being UNDER what I could do...

3000 GTW Max with a Max Tongue Weight 500lbs
And my vehicle 'can legally' haul 5000 GTW with Tongue 800lbs

I'm pretty much Always 1.5 Ton under what is legal for my vehicle.

Even though my Jeep/SUV looks small in relation to my trailer. Every aspect of towing including my Hitch is WELL over spec for what I'm legally allowed to do.

I agree with the Opening Poster; what I see others doing scares me. And its every drivers legal responsability to ensure they act 'safely' on the roads. Which would be why we can get fines and legal ramifications for breaking the laws....

my students often say "But ______ happened and _____ was what was done so what your teaching is wrong." Followed by my response... "Just because you saw it happen that way once, or even several times. Doesn't make it legal or right."

I just wish more people would get caught or called out on these things so others would take it more seriously.

[Wireman]

Originally Posted by BC Boondocker

The more I look at these things the more I get bothered by it. I see all these people who obviously are oblivious to what their units should/could haul and have no idea that even if they 'can' its still not legal. (the vehicles are legally rated so.......)

I was absolutely Meticulous about being UNDER what I could do...

3000 GTW Max with a Max Tongue Weight 500lbs
And my vehicle 'can legally' haul 5000 GTW with Tongue 800lbs

I'm pretty much Always 1.5 Ton under what is legal for my vehicle.

Even though my Jeep/SUV looks small in relation to my trailer. Every aspect of towing including my Hitch is WELL over spec for what I'm legally allowed to do.

I agree with the Opening Poster; what I see others doing scares me. And its every drivers legal responsability to ensure they act 'safely' on the roads. Which would be why we can get fines and legal ramifications for breaking the laws....

my students often say "But ______ happened and _____ was what was done so what your teaching is wrong." Followed by my response... "Just because you saw it happen that way once, or even several times. Doesn't make it legal or right."

I just wish more people would get caught or called out on these things so others would take it more seriously.

X2 I'm about 1500 lbs. under my max towing capacity and that is what I feel comfortable towing SAFELY.

Not going to argue what the best vehicle is for towing. That's up to each person to decide for themselves.

[01tundra]

We're 9,200 lbs under our max tow rating and around 800 lbs under max payload when fully loaded. For our TT weight we are not even required to use a WD hitch according to GMC, but I still choose to do so to take advantage of the anti-sway function.

We still limit our maximum speed to 65 MPH if conditions allow.

We have been passed on the interstate by 1/2-ton trucks hauling large 5'rs. They may be under their max ratings, but I still wouldn't drive 80 MPH. I also see a lot of 3/4 & 1-ton TV's pulling way too fast for the given conditions, not just TT's, but also car haulers, dump trailers, etc.

[bap]

Originally Posted by bono

I am glad that you used the word "recommendations" - probably the keyword.

I could give you at least half a dozen reasons why pick ups are not the best choice for towing (and there are better choices), but this forum is not the best place to share such facts.

I'm betting you tow with an inadequate tow vehicle.

[Super Eagle]

Originally Posted by bono

I am glad that you used the word "recommendations" - probably the keyword.

I could give you at least half a dozen reasons why pick ups are not the best choice for towing (and there are better choices), but this forum is not the best place to share such facts.

If you have the facts, you should enlighten us.

[bono]

I am betting you like gambling.

Originally Posted by bap

I'm betting you tow with an inadequate tow vehicle.

[Wireman]

Originally Posted by Super Eagle

If you have the facts, you should enlighten us.

I guess I would like to be educated on what's best also, and what are the better choices.

Never to old to learn something.

I tow with a Jeep Grand Cherokee EcoDiesel, it fits my needs, tows well and also fits in my garage.


That's the main reason I don't have a pickup. I considered a pickup to be my best option and would be a better tow vehicle if it fit all my needs.

Just didn't want to park it outside. Happy with my choice for now, but if I ever moved up to a bigger TT, a pickup would have to be the vehicle of choice.

Again, towing 5700 lbs. with a 7200 lb. max rating on the Jeep.

Bono, I really would like to know what the best options are, other that pickups.

What is your tow vehicle, I may have missed it in your posts.

[JohnWedell]

God forbid there's an accident, someone dies and your vehicle is impounded and checked, then you'll find out who's wrong or right. At that point nobody cares what you think. It really is a serious matter.

[01tundra]

Originally Posted by bono

I could give you at least half a dozen reasons why pick ups are not the best choice for towing (and there are better choices), but this forum is not the best place to share such facts.

These people make both styles of vehicle construction (uni-body and body-on-frame) and seem to disagree....coming from having a lot of experience in the off-road sector myself, I tend to agree with them.

Please share your experiecnes to why uni-body vehicles are superior to body-on-frame for towing duties. As a mechanical engineer and having owned several vehicles of both construction styles, I am very interested in learning what you have experienced concerning this topic, we're all here to learn from each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LJSxiMQLn4

[bono]

I did not say that unibody is superior to body-on-frame for towing duties. It is obvious that in some cases unibody would not be up to task, e.g. towing 5th wheel. However, in order to tow smaller and mid size trailers SUV may be a better choice (lower center of gravity, better brakes, shorter rear overhang, independent suspension, low profile tires, better maneuverability, etc.). All of that results in better towing experience (at least for some people). Of course, one need to take into consideration shorter wheel base and payload restrictions.

Common misconception is that you need frame to have a stable platform for towing. You don't, therefore, I mentioned that unibody is stiffer than body on frame. The challenge with unibody are the hitch attachment points and therefore one of the mods is to reinforce the hitch by providing additional attachment point.

I know how that kind of discussions end up. Therefore, I suggest we stop here.

Originally Posted by 01tundra

(...)

Please share your experiecnes to why uni-body vehicles are superior to body-on-frame for towing duties. (...) [/URL]

[01tundra]

I misunderstood your statement, my apologies.

I can see where the lower center of gravity of a vehicle could be better for towing in some situations, but the problem with SUV's is often their payload rating are very low due to the extra body weight and no amount of reinforcements can increase the stated payload.

The payload rating is what hurts most vehicles, including my 3/4-ton truck, if one chooses to stay within those ratings. In my personal opinion a lot of manufacturer's payload ratings are overly conservative to avoid legal ramifications, but unfortunately we are stuck with them.......

My personal experience with pulling a relatively light weight TT (GVWR = 3,800 lbs) with two different vehicles; our FJ cruiser pulls it OK and has a lower center of gravity than our 2500HD, but towing with the truck is far more comfortable and stable than it is with the SUV. Both are within towing, tongue weight and payload ratings unless we bring along the dogs, kayaks, mtn bikes, etc., then we can exceed the FJ's payload by a few hundred lbs, but in 99% of occasions the FJ is capable of legally pulling our TT on paper.

[ifallsguy]

Originally Posted by bono

I did not say that unibody is superior to body-on-frame for towing duties. It is obvious that in some cases unibody would not be up to task, e.g. towing 5th wheel. However, in order to tow smaller and mid size trailers SUV may be a better choice (lower center of gravity, better brakes, shorter rear overhang, independent suspension, low profile tires, better maneuverability, etc.). All of that results in better towing experience (at least for some people). Of course, one need to take into consideration shorter wheel base and payload restrictions.

Common misconception is that you need frame to have a stable platform for towing. You don't, therefore, I mentioned that unibody is stiffer than body on frame. The challenge with unibody are the hitch attachment points and therefore one of the mods is to reinforce the hitch by providing additional attachment point.

I know how that kind of discussions end up. Therefore, I suggest we stop here.

I question your statement about a unibody suv being a better towing experience (for some people) having better brakes than an on frame truck. While my wife's Prius may stop shorter, it also weighs less than half my F-150. Virtually every pickup on the market has brakes to stop it and a load (in bed or towing). Weight makes the difference. Tow a 300 pound UT behind her Prius and I'll bet it stops longer than without and more likely to be in an accident if you have to stop short.

Having worked as an EMT, I've treated victims of accidents towing with both unibody and on frame. The unibody victims have normally been more severely injured BECAUSE their vehicle didn't stop as expected due to the load of their trailer (utility, Uhaul, TT). Probable cause, the vehicle couldn't stop under any condition due to weight and speed.

I've also treated victims from on-frame, but they have more protection (larger vehicle, heavier duty brakes).

Unibody may be able to tow, but most are too light, lack adequate braking for heavy loads. On-frame have issues too.

And one of the biggest dangers in towing in either type of frames----THE DRIVER BEHIND THE WHEEL. Overestimate your ability, overload your vehicle, speed, don't check your tires (all), don't maintain your tow vehicle or tow, etc, are what make towing dangerous in the wrong hands.

And for all, the unexpected does happen to everyone.

[Wireman]

Bono, I now understand where you are coming from. Mini vans and unibody vehicles do have a place in the towing scene.

My 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee is a unibody frame, designed to tow 7200 lbs. as a 4WD. Personally I wouldn't approach that limit when towing.

As long as anyone adheres to the builders towing limits, I don't see a problem.

Any tow vehicle has a designed limit, whether pickup or mini van or unibody construction. What I'm saying is there is no reason a hitch has to be modified and made stronger if these limits are followed.

I can't imagine a minivan towing a 34 ft. airstream safely. I would think it would look like something out of a Mad Max movie.

Just because someone does it doesn't make it safe or right.

[BC Boondocker]

Originally Posted by ifallsguy

And one of the biggest dangers in towing in either type of frames----THE DRIVER BEHIND THE WHEEL. Overestimate your ability, overload your vehicle, speed, don't check your tires (all), don't maintain your tow vehicle or tow, etc, are what make towing dangerous in the wrong hands.

And for all, the unexpected does happen to everyone.

I absolutely agree, I grew up on a Farm with a Heavy Duty Mechanic for a Father. We travelled all over the USA and Canada hauling a 4 horse trailer in a club cab with a Camper in the box. We always stayed inside spec. And Maintenence was a Priority. Forget the 4 50K horses in the back and the financials of the vehicle... forget the other families on the road. Dad was always safe and careful as possible, because it was OUR family at risk.

I've seen too many accidents to allow much to chance with my own vehicles and family as well...

- Former Paramedic for FALK in Denmark, and for the BCAS in British Columbia Canada. (I teach safety and emergency response courses now)

Overconfidence and Poor Maintenance KILL people.





That being Said, I think each vehicle has been "Designed" to Tow or Haul within a certain capacity...

So... Humans were not designed to fly... Taping a kite to your back wont help if you jump off a cliff. And even if you do everything you can to get the training and gear for skydiving.... Planes do crash, and shutes do fail.

So debating the merits of Tow Vehicles with over sized loads and modifications for hauling. is very a kin to debating weather its worth using a Parachute that is designed for your weight capacity.. or if you should use one you have personally modified, while deciding if it is better to do a sky dive out of a Helicopter or a Plane.

*shrug*

[Jopopsy]

Slightly back on track to the OP's original intent, I watched a Forest River Sunseeker bunkhouse Class C roll into the site across from me last weekend. It was a rental unit. I then watched, utterly fascinated, as 11 people piled out of it. 11. Only 2 kids, the rest were teens and adults.

Then I watched all the luggage bay doors get opened and got to see the sheer quantity of 'stuff' they brought w/ them. They even had a 4' long charcoal grill and multiple bags of Kingsford. There is no way on God's green earth that the Sunseeker was under GVWR. I'm betting they were easily 1k pounds over.

As I watched it roll away two days later, the rear end was basically resting on the suspension limits. Heaven forbid they had to stop abruptly or maneuver.

Just bad .....

[Super Eagle]

Originally Posted by bono

I did not say that unibody is superior to body-on-frame for towing duties. It is obvious that in some cases unibody would not be up to task, e.g. towing 5th wheel. However, in order to tow smaller and mid size trailers SUV may be a better choice (lower center of gravity, better brakes, shorter rear overhang, independent suspension, low profile tires, better maneuverability, etc.). All of that results in better towing experience (at least for some people). Of course, one need to take into consideration shorter wheel base and payload restrictions.

Common misconception is that you need frame to have a stable platform for towing. You don't, therefore, I mentioned that unibody is stiffer than body on frame. The challenge with unibody are the hitch attachment points and therefore one of the mods is to reinforce the hitch by providing additional attachment point.

I know how that kind of discussions end up. Therefore, I suggest we stop here.

I need to take exception to all of what you're saying here. I'd imagine that you've never experienced towing progressively larger trailers, with progressively larger vehicles. I've towed with everything from a 1996 Nissan Pathfinder (when it was a formidable vehicle), to a 1998 V-6 light duty F-150, a 2004 5.4 liter F-150 with "tow package", to my current 2016 F-350 with a 3960# payload capacity. I can tell you first hand that there is a HUGE difference with each of these vehicles capabilities, and they are designed to have different capabilities, and that's why they exist.
Low center of gravity does you no good if you don't have a suspension that can handle the load. No unibody vehicle is going to have the sort of suspension a purpose built truck will.
Braking distance is a result of a few factors, but clearly weight and speed are the number one contributors to increased braking distance. Trucks are purpose built to haul loads, whereas a unibody vehicle is designed to haul people and stuff, and not excessive loads. See above for my payload capacity, and don't forget I also have a 15,000# towing capacity.
Shorter rear overhang? What you're referring to, I believe, is the moment about the rear axle created by applying a force at the trailer hitch. True, and this is why a hitch installed by an OEM will have a sticker that identifies maximum tongue weight. Don't be confused that a shorter overhang that a Nissan Juke has, versus an F-150, can replace the purpose an F-150 was designed for.
Lower profile tires? You lost me with this thought. If you have 30 psi in your 40 series tire, and you apply a 1000# force a foot behind your rear axle, your 30 psi is going to force your rim to the ground....not good.
Better maneuverability: sure, until you overload your springs. Your springs only have so much of a rebound force, and if you exceed that, they aren't rebounding any longer, and your vehicle will lose the ability to control the load it's hauling.
All of the above creates a scary towing experience, so if you want to become a statistic, then tow your 7000#, 30 foot trailer, with your Nissan Juke, and if you make it down the road, your Nissan service department will love to see you every month.
Isaac Newton would disagree with your thought that reinforcing your hitch points is the correction that stands between you and his basic laws of physics. Please overdo your tow vehicle, and keep yours and ours safe.

[bono]

This is exactly how those discussions are ending. A couple of proud truck lovers will always try to convince that only trucks can tow.

To all open minded people - please do not buy it. Please do your research and use your brains to make decisions. There are many very capable SUV to tow smaller and mid size trailers, all within mfg specs. I know that for some one ton truck is not enough to tow 5th wheel. I saw semi trucks used for this purpose. If somebody needs that kind of comfort, that's OK. not my business.

[DocBrown]

Last summer on my way to work there was a traffic backup due to an accident. When we came up on it, it was a Kia Soul on it's side. It was towing a 16ft single axle travel trailer. I doubt the Soul has a towing capacity of more 1000#, if any at all.

Originally Posted by bono

There are many very capable SUV to tow smaller and mid size trailers, all within mfg specs.

And that is the sensible approach.

We had a mini-van that we used to tow a 2500# pop-up. It was like they were made for each other.

We then bought a 3500# Jayco Kiwi 17a hybrid and towed it with the mini-van. It was OK but not stellar. It was setup properly and I never felt unsafe towing. A year later we got a 2003 Trailblazer, full framed truck, it did a marvelous job of towing that trailer. It was rated for 4900#.

In 2013 we got the X20E. It's about 4500# loaded. The towing experience with the Trailblazer was like the mini-van with the 3500# trailer. OK, but not stellar. Towing the X20E with our current Sierra is a real pleasure.

So you see I have quite a bit of experience doing it both ways. It's all about right sizing the combo.

[bap]

Originally Posted by bono

This is exactly how those discussions are ending. A couple of proud truck lovers will always try to convince that only trucks can tow.

To all open minded people - please do not buy it. Please do your research and use your brains to make decisions. There are many very capable SUV to tow smaller and mid size trailers, all within mfg specs. I know that for some one ton truck is not enough to tow 5th wheel. I saw semi trucks used for this purpose. If somebody needs that kind of comfort, that's OK. not my business.

How come you haven't answered the question that Wireman asked you, and that was "What is your tow vehicle?" You have a lot of opinions on wanting to tow with inadequate vehicles but don't tell us what you are towing with.

[bankr63]

Originally Posted by Sundancer330

I also saw lots of overloaded TVs today driving home. But what I was more surprised at was the speeds people were towing at, I drive 68-70 and I had so many just fly by me swaying back and forth they had to be doing over 80. And several with bike racks on the back of a trailer loaded with 4 bikes just swinging and bouncing like crazy looking like it would rip off at any minute, I don't think these people realize what is going on with the bike racks, I gave them lots of space since I didn't need to drive over any bikes today.

Actually, I think I would rather share the road with a slow moving overloaded TT/TV than these guys in the HD pickups running 75+MPH, swerving all over the road and running way faster than their China bomb TT tires can handle. I find the latter WAY more cringe worthy and am glad when they have disappeared over the horizon without killing themselves, us, or their fellow motorists.