Girard tankless water heater

[mralex]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaRV

from all that I have read and know...you should use one...I'm for using an adjustable one with a gauge on it.

https://www.amazon.com/Kanbrook-Adju...egulator&psc=1

I agree you should use one, and an adjustable one at that if you don't know what the water pressure is where you are hooked up. I know my pressure at my house is minimum 30 and max 50, that's my pressure switch on my well. If I were hooked up in town or an RV park, for sure I would have a regulator and gage. In my Girard owners manual, page 12, #1. Says, "The RV's cold water system deriving its water input from a pressurized (45 psi or greater) source as a shore connection....), Page 3, Water Operating Pressure 125 PSI MAX. Page 5 says For proper operation this water heater requires a minimum water flow of .7 gallon per minute for each Hot Water faucet it supplies. I think if you have all these things like the book says, the water heater should work fine. The water lines in the newer RVs are PEX and it will easily stand 65 or 70 PSI. I have one of the Camco regulators that has a yellow arc that say low, a green arc, and a red arc that says high, no numbers so I don't really know what they are calling low or high so a I am going to get an adjustable one with a gage and set it for about 55 psi and see how well it works, I am betting it's going to work just fine.

[blujay40]

We ordered the Girard Gen 3 in our 2017 Jayco Eagle 330RSTS and tried it out for a month's stay so far.

Overall, the Girard Gen 3 we have has worked "almost" as good as anyone could expect. We have kept ours at 115 (factory preset) because the DW didn't like having to constantly change it lower for showers and hotter for dishes. With it set at 115, water pressure at about 60psi using a Watts pressure regulator, and using an Oxygenics shower head, we are actually able to mix in some cold as long as we don't turn the handle more than about half way. I have even tested it using the fresh water tank and internal pump and it works just as well that way also.

There is one caveat to this however, in that if someone flushes the toilet, turns on a faucet, or even draws water from the refrigerator dispenser, it decreases the flow/pressure thru the Girard enough that it overheats and shuts down. We also don't think the flow in this new trailer is as good as what we had in our previous Coachmen when we used just a Camco cartridge filter.

Our filter setup is a dual standard canister setup from rvwaterfilterstore.com. Dave told me that my setup at 60 psi should be providing at least a 3-4 gal/min flow at 60 psi. I use a 1 micron sediment filter and a charcoal filter. So if the flow is truly in that range, I can't see where the Oxygenics (about 1.3 gal/min) and water from another source would decrease flow below the Girards min of .9 gal/min. I didn't check my month old filter cartridges before we left to see if they were clogged already (we were on true "city" water that whole month) but who would expect it to be clogged already with "city" water? I will try and measure actual flow rate (timing a 1 gal bucket fill), check the cartridges, and even remove them one at a time to see what that does to mitigate our issues when we get back to Florida in a few weeks. If necessary, I may have to go to jumbo cartridges.

Another, that I forgot to do and remembered when we got home, was a post somewhere that recommended to bleed the washer lines to remove any additional air in the plumbing because that can affect water pressure?

So there are some caveats we have to be willing to work with but for what it provides us, we can live with it "for now" and it might get better if bleeding the washer lines and working with my filter setup does anything.

The only real "issue" that I can say we have that will need to be addressed at some point is that just before we left, the Girard started to throw an "E3" error on startup once every few days. When it happens, we have to turn off the water, wait a few seconds, and turn the water back on. I will be bringing this up to our service guy when we bring it back next spring, unless it fails outright before then.

So after one month of usage, is it perfect? No. But at least for us so far, it's not as bad as many of others have said theirs were and were not regretting our choice, YET! But if it "gives up the ghost" at any point, the replacement won't be another Girard.

[rgolding]

Originally Posted by Mwade

I have a question, what is everyone's thinking on not using a pressure regulator on our rvs?

I think 95% of the time, you will have no problem. You will get very settled with enough water pressure and maybe a couple of years from now, you are going to be at that one campground where you should have had a regulator and blow you whole system apart when you least expect it.

In 6 years of almost continuous traveling, camping and living in units. I've only found one place in the Boston area and because I had the pressure regulator at the wrong end of the hose and it made my hose look like a snake that swallowed a bunch of rabbits.

Good luck!

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by JetTech

From what I've seen in ours, when the temp is set too high, it's working like crazy to heat the water, and then add in low flow/low pressure and it senses an overheat and shuts down, until it cools to a certain temp, then kicks back on in a vicious circle. At lower temp settings, and with the same low flow, it doesn't seem to cycle off and on hardly at all.

This sums up our experience as well...

We have finally mastered the HWH by a combination of Steady water pressure and turning down the temperature setting to a point where we can take a comfortable shower with the Hot at 100% and the cold barely (at 2-5%) open - running on our RV Pump's pressure.


We found that the HWH was cycling on overheat due to the variation in pressure, running on our Coach Water Pump helps with a stable pressure and volume it provides. When hooked up in a park (a rare occasion) we will refill the FWTank once for the next day and everyone can take a long shower with unlimited hot water.

When boondocking on a limited water supply: We now expect that the HWH is going to go into shut-down while we use the shut off valve to conserve. We know that when we turn the water on to rinse - there will be about 4 seconds of cool while the HWH gets started again, but from then on it will be a steady temperature again. (not much different to our experience with our tank water heater in the previous motorhome - except it was a scalding hot moment of water temp.)

And yes... always use a pressure regulator - Always.

[WaltW]

Not saying this to insult anyone but I find it interesting as to what RVers consider "it works". With prior HW systems you turned it on, adjusted cold and hot flow for temp and that's it. Not too hot for showers, plenty hot for dishes. Why must you fill FW daily tank vs use city water directly due to pressure fluctuations. Jayco should get rid of the city water option if this is their design intent. Would you have bought your Jayco if you were told the only way to take a bath was to continuously fill the FW tank?

Sorry but I don't think the on-demand HW heater "works" in this environment. Would you shift your cars transmission into neutral at every stop sign or light because otherwise it would die? Hey, the car "works" but I doubt that anyone would be happy with that...maybe unless you were an RVer.

The tank HW heaters work.

Apologies if I've upset anyone.

[blujay40]

Originally Posted by WaltW

Not saying this to insult anyone but I find it interesting as to what RVers consider "it works". With prior HW systems you turned it on, adjusted cold and hot flow for temp and that's it. Not too hot for showers, plenty hot for dishes. Why must you fill FW daily tank vs use city water directly due to pressure fluctuations. Jayco should get rid of the city water option if this is their design intent. Would you have bought your Jayco if you were told the only way to take a bath was to continuously fill the FW tank?

Sorry but I don't think the on-demand HW heater "works" in this environment. Would you shift your cars transmission into neutral at every stop sign or light because otherwise it would die? Hey, the car "works" but I doubt that anyone would be happy with that...maybe unless you were an RVer.

The tank HW heaters work.

Apologies if I've upset anyone.

Not upset at all, and I get what your saying.

But for me, just about EVERYTHING in an RV is a "give and take" compared to other living quarter options, so why should this be any different?

I consider it all an "adventure"!

[RoWest]

The wife, myself, and grand kids have taken many showers over almost 2 years of ownership and find the on-demand system perfectly adequate. It was not before getting a quality adjustable pressure regulator without restriction and increasing the pressure to 50 psi. Minor adjustments need be be made once according to the ambient water temperature, with super cold water (like this last weekend at Bolsa Chica SB at Huntington Beach, CA) needing a little spin to the right on the dial-once. I've got the 1 series, and don't miss fiddling with the tank water heaters like in past units.

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by WaltW

The tank HW heaters work.

Apologies if I've upset anyone.

No apology necessary.
I've had the Tanked AND the Tankless.

Like anything new - there are kinks and bugs to be worked out. My Gen II is better than the Gen I, the Gen III is better than my Gen II.

I prefer the Tankless.

But simply because our current RV style accommodates the tankless better. We've got three teenagers, and are sticking to campgrounds with water and electric.

If we were boondocker's, I'd probably prefer tanked.

It's a oft repeated fact that the number of RVers is increasing. I'm willing to bet that a majority of the new comers will stay in parks with water and electric. Jayco was likely building something that the new batch of RVers will prefer.

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by WaltW

Not saying this to insult anyone but I find it interesting as to what RVers consider "it works". With prior HW systems you turned it on, adjusted cold and hot flow for temp and that's it. Not too hot for showers, plenty hot for dishes. Why must you fill FW daily tank vs use city water directly due to pressure fluctuations. Jayco should get rid of the city water option if this is their design intent. Would you have bought your Jayco if you were told the only way to take a bath was to continuously fill the FW tank?

Sorry but I don't think the on-demand HW heater "works" in this environment. Would you shift your cars transmission into neutral at every stop sign or light because otherwise it would die? Hey, the car "works" but I doubt that anyone would be happy with that...maybe unless you were an RVer.

The tank HW heaters work.

Apologies if I've upset anyone.

No apology needed... this is just our experience with the temperature variances...

If we wanted to delve into the ease of winterization... Tankless wins by a longshot.

If we wanted to delve into economy of propane... I'm betting on Tankless vs our prior 5gal tank WH. all we did was hear the burner running for 20 minutes after washing our hands using a quart of water.

If we wanted to compare the capacity of hot water being available... well, there is no comparison.

Now that we have figured out the "right setting" and eliminating the other issues that cause it to be imperfect.. we have come to see the benefits now outweigh the downfall of tankless heaters - including the residential ones installed in homes and hotels.

[anav8or]

My apologies for hijacking this thread to a certain extent, but my question to the group is very much related to the Girard tankless heater. We were at a campground a couple of weekends ago where they had, unknown to me at the time, done some work on the water lines. Long story short, when we hooked up and turned on the water, I had a gob of mud pushed into our Seneca's water system. This did not make me a happy camper, to say the least.

Anyway, I got it all cleaned up and thought that the inlet screen and the water filter caught the vast majority of it. But, we're having trouble getting the Girard to produce hot water now. It definitely still heats, but, even with the dial turned all the way up, the water is nowhere near the scalding hot I'm used to.

I haven't looked closely at the innards of the heater, but I think the theory is to move water through a relatively narrow copper pipe which spirals up around the heat chamber. I'm wondering if some of that dirt / debris made it to that pipe and is preventing efficient heat exchange. We don't see any pressure / flow drop, so I don't think it is fouled too badly.

Just wondering if anyone else has run into anything like this. I have the camper winterized now - if the problem is still there in the spring, I may make a call to Girard and see what they say.

[EdBob]

Pretty glad i did NOT let my dealer talk me into a tankless. I have the standard Atwood 10gal gas/electric. With both electric and gas active, I can take a 30 min hot shower with NO shortage of hot water. The water is HOT....but can always blend cold to make it right for dishes...etc.

[jgerhard]

We didn't have the option of tankless or not when ordering our 2016 Greyhawk. I was really hoping the Girard Gen 3 worked well. I was able to get it to work pretty good when hooked up, but for boondocking, no bueno. I swapped it out for a tanked Atwood and an extremely happy now!

Pics of the swap here:

http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/me...lbums1132.html

[norty1]

anav8or: This points to the need to get in the habit of flushing water lines before hooking up to the to the rig. Also some type of water filter is a must..

I would not let it go till camping season or you may be worse off then. The unit needs to be flushed out and tested before leaving it sit all winter.

If that is not possible then you are going to impacted next season also.

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by anav8or

I haven't looked closely at the innards of the heater, but I think the theory is to move water through a relatively narrow copper pipe which spirals up around the heat chamber. I'm wondering if some of that dirt / debris made it to that pipe and is preventing efficient heat exchange. We don't see any pressure / flow drop, so I don't think it is fouled too badly.

Just wondering if anyone else has run into anything like this. I have the camper winterized now - if the problem is still there in the spring, I may make a call to Girard and see what they say.

Definitely call Girard, first. I'd be tempted to try to un-plumb the lines next to heater itself and see if I could flush it out from there. Wondering out loud - I'd probably try to un hook the inlet and outlets and just flush until I see nothing but clear water flowing thru the heater.

Then I'd leave it unhooked and flush the lines best I could.

Maybe compressed air too?

It doesn't sound like a clog, but...

In any event - good luck!

[anav8or]

Originally Posted by pconroy

Definitely call Girard, first. I'd be tempted to try to un-plumb the lines next to heater itself and see if I could flush it out from there. Wondering out loud - I'd probably try to un hook the inlet and outlets and just flush until I see nothing but clear water flowing thru the heater.

Then I'd leave it unhooked and flush the lines best I could.

Maybe compressed air too?

It doesn't sound like a clog, but...

In any event - good luck!

Thanks for the advice, all. I will give Girard a call and get their input. I thought about disconnecting the lines at the water heater and blowing those out directly, but I don't want to make things worse.

I'll report back after I've talked with Girard.

And, yes, my site arrival checklist will now include turning on the water before hooking up to make sure there isn't a bunch of mud waiting in there...

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[blujay40]

Update:

Well, things really haven't changed much since my last post with our use of the Girard Gen 3 for a few more weeks now. The unit works for the most part IF you are aware of it's quirks and operate it in a fashion to avoid those. We are running ours at the default 115 degrees because the DW doesn't want to have to keep remembering to turn it up for dishes, then down for her shower, and down even more for the little ones and then back up again. With it set that way, we can still mix in a little cold water during showers that require lower water temps and hotter for dishes without having to constantly mess with it. But when someone is showering, no one can flush or get a glass of water from a faucet without the unit shutting down.

But there is one issue that continues to be the most glaring, which is the unit continues to throw an E3 error code (over temp) whenever you run the hot water, turn it off, then turn it back on again. You either then have to wait for it to cool down for a few minutes before turning hot water on again, or turn off the water, turn off the unit at the control panel, turn the unit back on, then turn the hot water on again. Why that works if the unit is too hot and won't just turn on in the first place, I can't say and neither could Girard.

I took the water restrictor out of our shower head (Oxygenics) and now get about 3 gal/min flow from there. I am also pushing about 60# of pressure that is being regulated by a Watts regulator. I did that to try and allow as much flow as possible during a shower in the hopes that using another faucet that still has the restrictor in it, wouldn't cause enough of a drop in the total flow to shut the Girard down. Didn't work. So to me, that means that the minimum flow that the Girard requires (approx. 1 gal/min) just isn't possible in these trailers if more than one water source is used simultaneously.

After talking with Girard about this, they suggested I make sure ALL my lines were bled. I admit I hadn't bled the washer lines yet because Jayco buried them behind a false wall in the closet. So after tearing the closet apart, I bled the washer lines and there was a minor improvement in that I can now mix a little more cold water than I could previously. But still get an E3 error when you turn the hot off, then on again within a short time.

NOTE TO EAGLE TT OWNERS THAT HAVE THE WASHER/DRYER PREP - I can easily see the pex lines in the front pass thru/storage and where they go up into the back of the front closet. You would expect that these lines would be up at least a couple of feet to feed a washer, but in my case, that is not the case. After tearing our closet apart (both shelves and false back) the valves are barely 6" above the floor. So I was then able to easily pull the pex lines down thru the hole in the front pass thru where I hooked a short hose to them and bled them there vs. in the closet. Will make for easy winterizing as well.

Anyway, to try and mainly address the constant E3 errors, but also allow us to operate the unit like we want in regards to mixing cold in with the hot, Girard is sending me a new ECO board. This board is supposed to have a higher shut down threshold temp that they hope will eliminate the E3 codes, and maybe also allow us to use the unit like we want to. I will update again once I get the board installed and tested later this week.

We are also attending the Tampa RV Super show this next week and I will be making sure to drop by the Truma booth as well, just in case.

[hoppers4]

Wow, you have a lot more patience and perseverance than I do. I gave up on my tankless a couple of months after I bought the rig. Installed a regular WH and sold the tankless.

[blujay40]

Originally Posted by hoppers4

Wow, you have a lot more patience and perseverance than I do. I gave up on my tankless a couple of months after I bought the rig. Installed a regular WH and sold the tankless.

My "patience" flows from the DW. Going back is not an option until SHE says so!

[hoppers4]

Originally Posted by blujay40

My "patience" flows from the DW. Going back is not an option until SHE says so!

100% on board with that statement! Fortunately the DW was as annoyed as I was so it was easy to secure permission.

[anav8or]

Originally Posted by blujay40

Update:

Well, things really haven't changed much since my last post with our use of the Girard Gen 3 for a few more weeks now. The unit works for the most part IF you are aware of it's quirks and operate it in a fashion to avoid those. We are running ours at the default 115 degrees because the DW doesn't want to have to keep remembering to turn it up for dishes, then down for her shower, and down even more for the little ones and then back up again. With it set that way, we can still mix in a little cold water during showers that require lower water temps and hotter for dishes without having to constantly mess with it. But when someone is showering, no one can flush or get a glass of water from a faucet without the unit shutting down.

But there is one issue that continues to be the most glaring, which is the unit continues to throw an E3 error code (over temp) whenever you run the hot water, turn it off, then turn it back on again. You either then have to wait for it to cool down for a few minutes before turning hot water on again, or turn off the water, turn off the unit at the control panel, turn the unit back on, then turn the hot water on again. Why that works if the unit is too hot and won't just turn on in the first place, I can't say and neither could Girard.

I took the water restrictor out of our shower head (Oxygenics) and now get about 3 gal/min flow from there. I am also pushing about 60# of pressure that is being regulated by a Watts regulator. I did that to try and allow as much flow as possible during a shower in the hopes that using another faucet that still has the restrictor in it, wouldn't cause enough of a drop in the total flow to shut the Girard down. Didn't work. So to me, that means that the minimum flow that the Girard requires (approx. 1 gal/min) just isn't possible in these trailers if more than one water source is used simultaneously.

After talking with Girard about this, they suggested I make sure ALL my lines were bled. I admit I hadn't bled the washer lines yet because Jayco buried them behind a false wall in the closet. So after tearing the closet apart, I bled the washer lines and there was a minor improvement in that I can now mix a little more cold water than I could previously. But still get an E3 error when you turn the hot off, then on again within a short time.

NOTE TO EAGLE TT OWNERS THAT HAVE THE WASHER/DRYER PREP - I can easily see the pex lines in the front pass thru/storage and where they go up into the back of the front closet. You would expect that these lines would be up at least a couple of feet to feed a washer, but in my case, that is not the case. After tearing our closet apart (both shelves and false back) the valves are barely 6" above the floor. So I was then able to easily pull the pex lines down thru the hole in the front pass thru where I hooked a short hose to them and bled them there vs. in the closet. Will make for easy winterizing as well.

Anyway, to try and mainly address the constant E3 errors, but also allow us to operate the unit like we want in regards to mixing cold in with the hot, Girard is sending me a new ECO board. This board is supposed to have a higher shut down threshold temp that they hope will eliminate the E3 codes, and maybe also allow us to use the unit like we want to. I will update again once I get the board installed and tested later this week.

We are also attending the Tampa RV Super show this next week and I will be making sure to drop by the Truma booth as well, just in case.

Thanks for sharing your experience - our Seneca has the 2nd generation Girard and, although we haven't had as much trouble with ours as you have, it has been a challenge to get consistent hot water at times.

We are in the process of trading the Seneca in on a new Class A which has the Truma Aquahot installed on it. I'm curious to see how it works in comparison to the Girard. I've heard and read good things, so I'm hopeful. I really like the idea of tankless heaters, but, after using it for a couple of years, the Girard seems too finicky to compare well to a traditional tank heater IMHO.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk