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Old 10-21-2013, 06:41 PM   #1
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What temperature will a Greyhawk with tank heaters take without freezing?

It came equipped with tank heaters, but not the heated line and elbow wraps. Reputable dealer says good to single digits. I want to believe that, but I'm not sure I do. Tank heater manufacturer agrees with dealer. Says you only need the line heaters in extreme (?) cold.

The weak part of the system is considered to be the pipe from the tank to the dump valve if it's long (getting away from the tank).

Does anybody have any real-life experience with this set-up?
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:47 PM   #2
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Listening to this since in same area as you...Hate winter so soon
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:13 AM   #3
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Wow I will have to disagree with the dealer. I took our Redhawk out with tank heaters and some of the outside lines froze at only 28 degrees. It wasn't enough to crack the pipes but it gave us a good scare. The next night we winterized the lines and used water from a container to flush.

This why I am convinced tank heaters alone are worthless. I will be very interested to see what others have experienced.
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:30 AM   #4
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I used our tank heaters when returning from a vacation in Florida in November. I turned them on somewhere in Pennsylvania when it got chilly and turned them off when we dumped in New York. I never considered *camping* with the tank heaters on.

Kris
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:34 AM   #5
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I've been out in when temps have dropped into the teens not only with our current SENECA, but also with the 2001 DESIGNER MH and the FW we had before that without tank heaters and never had any issues. I do have a heated water line (PIRIT) and we do not leave the sewer hose out since it would be the first thing to freeze. We don't even run the furnace as I use electric heaters and keep the temp around 70.

If you have water lines in a slide out I recommend keeping the cabinet door open.
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:01 AM   #6
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I don't have any specific experience, but as always I do have some comments.

Fresh water freezes below 32F. That is a fact.

Insulation does not add heat and will not prevent freezing. Insulation will only keep things that are warm at that higher temperature than ambient for a longer period of time. Without a heat source, given enough time even a fully insulated pipe will reach ambient temperature which means that an insulated pipe will freeze if the ambient temperature is below 32F for long enough. That is a fact.

(At one time insulation was commonly referred to as "lagging" because it slows down the loss of heat. Insulation installers were known as "laggers".)

A tank heater will add heat to the tank. Given free flow, the warmed liquid (relatively... above 32F anyway) will keep connected pipes like the dump lines from freezing. A dead ended, valved off isolated dump pipe full of liquid could still freeze. That is a fact.

Without a circulating system, the tank heater will have little or no effect on remote area connected piping whether the pipes are insulated or not. That is a fact.

There is a common misconception that insulation will keep pipes from freezing. That is a myth. Without some means of keeping the liquid in the piping warm, given enough time, eventually unused insulated pipes will freeze if the ambient temperature is below 32F. Normal use of water combined with a raised local ambient temperature from a heated trailer box helps insulated pipes operate correctly.

FWIW. vic
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:40 AM   #7
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The tank heaters are not worth much on their own. In 20 degree weather, our coach completely froze up. The tanks didn't, but any piping from the tanks did - including the supply line from the fresh water tank to the pump. www.ultraheat.com is the same manufacturer that supplies Jayco with their tank heaters. They also make heat pads for the waste lines, dump valves, and water lines. This addition is on my list of things to do, but I haven't installed them yet. Hopefully msturtz will read this and post. He has installed them as well as additional insulation.
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Old 10-25-2013, 07:42 AM   #8
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Probably silly question, but can you pour rv antifreeze into the grey/black water tanks to keep from freezing?
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:05 AM   #9
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Probably silly question, but can you pour rv antifreeze into the grey/black water tanks to keep from freezing?
Not a silly question at all. Yes you can add antifreeze to the tanks. It doesn't need to be a true 50% mixture. Less mixture will keep it from freezing solid. Slushy is OK.

For the most part a heel of water laying in a poly tank isn't a real problem. It is where the water is contained in a small area that the issues begin (dump lines, other fittings). A single freeze isn't usually fatal. Freeze thaw cycles are what do the most damage. My explanation of the mechanics are this. The water freezes and expands a little bit. Then it partially thaws (a solid plug of ice remains), more water moves in to the voids, and then it freezes again. Each cycle adds more expansion until something finally breaks. That cycle is obvious in old copper tubing in summer cottages when pipes don't drain completely. In the low points you often see pregnant areas in the tubing. Copper will tolerate some expansion without failing. I think that people would be surprised to see just how pregnant the copper tubing can get before finally failing. Hard plastic fittings... not so much.

I know of people who use RV's in the winter. They leave the fresh water system winterized. Many use a container of water/anti-freeze solution for manually flushing the toilet. I find that most times peanut butter jars are a convenient size for one flush. Some people use a jug.

Were I to use the camper in winter (we're considering that so we get some more use out of it) then my mode will be to fill my jars with 50% antifreeze solution. I am not speaking from experience for winter use, just what I've learned working on plumbing systems, and what I've gleaned from the forums.

vic

Edit: P.S. - Even though it is going into wastewater tanks, please still use the pink RV type anti-freeze. The automotive ethylene glycol is just so much more toxic.
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Old 10-25-2013, 08:16 AM   #10
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Vic,
Thanks for the extra info. I, too, am looking to camp in the winter and I was thinking the same thing (antifreeze in a bucket for flushing ) and it's nice to know it has been done before.

Kris
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Old 10-27-2013, 05:12 PM   #11
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I installed the ultra heat heaters just up from the dump valves. Next I wrapped the pipes in rubberized self-adhesive pipe insulation. I then topped that off with silver tape used for ducting. Next I wrapped the grey and black tanks with self-adhesive insulation used for rigid ducting. I then sprayed rubberized undercoating over all of the insulation to keep it tidy and protected. I could not easily get to the fresh tank low point drain so I had the dealer install that. The last thing I need to do is insulate the driver's side rear storage bin because it is open to where the pump is and contains the plumbing control valves and low point drains. I will also insulate the fresh tank.

Not using the fresh water system during winter camping isn't an option for me because we have three kids.

This has been a frustrating experience because the implication by having the tank heaters is that you can use the RV in the winter as is. In fact, you cannot. It requires research, planning, expense and a lot of work to make the unit work in the winter.
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Old 10-27-2013, 05:13 PM   #12
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I installed the ultra heat heaters just up from the dump valves. Next I wrapped the pipes in rubberized self-adhesive pipe insulation. I then topped that off with silver tape used for ducting. Next I wrapped the grey and black tanks with self-adhesive insulation used for rigid ducting. I then sprayed rubberized undercoating over all of the insulation to keep it tidy and protected. I could not easily get to the fresh tank low point drain so I had the dealer install that. The last thing I need to do is insulate the driver's side rear storage bin because it is open to where the pump is and contains the plumbing control valves and low point drains. I will also insulate the fresh tank.

Not using the fresh water system during winter camping isn't an option for me because we have three kids.

This has been a frustrating experience because the implication by having the tank heaters is that you can use the RV in the winter as is. In fact, you cannot. It requires research, planning, expense and a lot of work to make the unit work in the winter.
All said and done I would do it again.
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Old 10-27-2013, 06:41 PM   #13
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... good work, Michael. You're doing a good job of insulating your system so you should be good for winter camping. That's not our goal. We need to get through a cold spell once in a while is all, and I would drain the system if the forecast was for prolonged day / night freezing. I wrapped heat tape (120 Volt) around the tank discharge pipes and dump valves and insulated them by wrapping them with an old blanket. It's been in the mid 20's here the last 2 nights, but it's warming up during the day. ... haven't had any frozen pipes.

I think the way to go if your a consistent winter camper / traveler is with the enclosed under-belly. I think one manufacturer calls it their "Polar Package".
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Old 10-27-2013, 10:43 PM   #14
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... good work, Michael. You're doing a good job of insulating your system so you should be good for winter camping. That's not our goal. We need to get through a cold spell once in a while is all, and I would drain the system if the forecast was for prolonged day / night freezing. I wrapped heat tape (120 Volt) around the tank discharge pipes and dump valves and insulated them by wrapping them with an old blanket. It's been in the mid 20's here the last 2 nights, but it's warming up during the day. ... haven't had any frozen pipes.

I think the way to go if your a consistent winter camper / traveler is with the enclosed under-belly. I think one manufacturer calls it their "Polar Package".
I agree however I mistakenly thought that because my 2014 Greyhawk had heat pads it was ok for light winter use. After purchase when I crawled under it did I find out that it wasn't suitable without significant work. Jayco sells the Senaca with an enclosed belly that can be used in lower temperatures.
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:29 AM   #15
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I agree however I mistakenly thought that because my 2014 Greyhawk had heat pads it was ok for light winter use. After purchase when I crawled under it did I find out that it wasn't suitable without significant work. Jayco sells the Senaca with an enclosed belly that can be used in lower temperatures.
That's one to see it - here's another: You now have the same capability (as far as cold weathers goes) as the Seneca, but you didn't spend $220K for your MH. You are fortunate to be able to accomplish those things without having to pay going rates.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:36 PM   #16
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That's one to see it - here's another: You now have the same capability (as far as cold weathers goes) as the Seneca, but you didn't spend $220K for your MH. You are fortunate to be able to accomplish those things without having to pay going rates.
You are correct. I spent less than $500 including the heat pads, wiring and insulation. That included having the dealer install the heat pad on the freshwater tank low point drain.
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:20 PM   #17
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RV antifreeze is not liike auto antifreeze

[QUOTE=VicS1950;159571]Not a silly question at all. Yes you can add antifreeze to the tanks. It doesn't need to be a true 50% mixture. Less mixture will keep it from freezing solid. Slushy is OK./QUOTE]

What I've read on the antifreeze manufacturers' websites is RV antifreeze is not intended to be diluted like automobile antifreeze, but intended to be used "as is" the way you buy it. It provides freeze protection by turning slushy, not by preventing freezing. A small amount of dilution dramatically raises the minimum protection temperature. So, 50% RV antifreeze in your holding tank will not provide nearly as much protection as auto antifreeze (ethylene glycol) would. Nonetheless, it's poor practice to use ethylene glycol in sewage systems, because of the risk of enviornmental damage and more.
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:57 PM   #18
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Not a silly question at all. Yes you can add antifreeze to the tanks. It doesn't need to be a true 50% mixture. Less mixture will keep it from freezing solid. Slushy is OK.
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What I've read on the antifreeze manufacturers' websites is RV antifreeze is not intended to be diluted like automobile antifreeze, but intended to be used "as is" the way you buy it. It provides freeze protection by turning slushy, not by preventing freezing. A small amount of dilution dramatically raises the minimum protection temperature. So, 50% RV antifreeze in your holding tank will not provide nearly as much protection as auto antifreeze (ethylene glycol) would. Nonetheless, it's poor practice to use ethylene glycol in sewage systems, because of the risk of enviornmental damage and more.
Sorry. I wasn't assuming a diluted premix. (Our propylene glycol came straight in 55 gallon drums. If you got it on your hands, it immediately tasted like onions in your mouth. I don't know why??? I do know that it is used in some ketchup formulas... um.. I mean, recipes though.)

x10 on the not using ethylene glycol. It's just too toxic of itself (not to mention the additives) and doesn't make sense economically for the small RV quantities necessary anyway.

Thanks for the correction. vic
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