Electrical Fire WARNING

[navyjim]

We have a 2004 JAYCO Legacy. Last week we awoke to the smell of burning insulation. The fire alarm did NOT go off. I located the smell at the hot water heater and when I moved the blue cable, sparks flew. I imeadiately turned off the electric switch and circuit breaker. The circuit breaker did NOT trip. To investigate the problem I removed the black plastic cover, with dificulty, to see what had happened. The electrical wires were balled up together, one wire nut had completely burned up, 6 inches of the 115V white wire burned up, and BOTH of the screws on the electric heating element were so loose that the wires fell off. The difficulty I had with removing the box was due to the ground wire to the thermal switch being only 3 inches long. I have no idea how JAYCO got this hooked up. I ohmed the element and switch. They checked good, so after cleaning up, extending wires, and electrical taping wire nuts, I reinstalled. Everything works fine.

There is some controversy on taping wire nuts. On my rv.net post some said yes & some no. One person said it was a RVIA requirement to tape wire nuts, but I could not confirm. Non in my JAYCO are taped & I tape as I find them.

I notified JAYCO of the problem and received no response.

I was concered about the circuit breaker and discovered that a regular circuit breaker may or may not trip. There are new circuit breakers that came out around 2000 that have a "Arc Fault" that takes care of the problem, but they are expensive. I was also concerned about the fire detector and learned that there are 2 types: 1. "Ionization" cheapest, and 2. "Photo Electric" best. JAYCO is cheapest and I am replacing.

I contacted the National Fire Prevention Association, NFPA, that regulates fire standards for RVs. They had an interesting RV Fire Report for 2003-2006. These are annual averages: 1,960 RV Fires, 22 Deaths, 58 Injuries, 13.7 Million Cost. Origination of fires: 15% refrigerator, 13% electrical distribution, 11% heating.

Be safe out there and I hope that this may help someone. At 68 I am too young to die in an RV fire.

[Spike99]

Thanks for your warning...

Yes. I once see a fire at an electrical outlet where its upstream breaker did NOT flip. Its rare but can happen - even within a normal home running a 110/120V sump pump.

Your post reminds me that I "need" to buy a simple normal stick house 9V battery smoke detector. Then, install it within my Jayco - on its ceiling. Thus, having 1 factory smoke detector and one modernized (indpentant powered) smoke detector. Double the safety.

Not too sure if taping wire nuts are mandatory on TTs or automobiles. However... I think dipping each wire connector in some liquid electrical tape (re: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA300_.gif ) while TT is traveling down its assembly line is a great idea. Thus, sealing its connection from natrual moisture and reducing the risk of its connector from un-screwing (from normal road bounce). Hope the higher authorizes read your warning and make liquid electrical tape mandatory. A simple $1 improvement could save many future lives.

Many thanks for sharing your electrical fire warning...

.

[Rustic Eagle]

Originally Posted by navyjim

snip........I was also concerned about the fire detector and learned that there are 2 types: 1. "Ionization" cheapest, and 2. "Photo Electric" best. JAYCO is cheapest and I am replacing.

I contacted the National Fire Prevention Association, NFPA, that regulates fire standards for RVs. They had an interesting RV Fire Report for 2003-2006. These are annual averages: 1,960 RV Fires, 22 Deaths, 58 Injuries, 13.7 Million Cost. Origination of fires: 15% refrigerator, 13% electrical distribution, 11% heating.

Be safe out there and I hope that this may help someone. At 68 I am too young to die in an RV fire.

Navyjim,

Sounds like you were very fortunate to catch it the way you did, and the RV fire statistics are alarming to say the least.

One thing for sure, looks like I'll be investing in another smoke detector!

Bob

[roughing it]

was out last weak camping with our 377rlbh when getting out of shower smelled electrical wires burning did some investigating and found same thing wires at water heater burnt found by black cover having burn hole and seeing orange glow from wires turned of breaker and repaired checked element was good just a bad connection wire nut completely burnt I would consider myself lucky because we were leaving to go out for day

[wags999]

I stopped using wire nuts a few years back. Use the push in connectors. Much less prone to lessening than a wire nuts.

[RetiredOne]

One thing to realize with wire nuts, they are not there to CONNECT the wires, but just to COVER the wires.

The most important part is the mechanical connection of the wires. The wires need to be twisted well together and twisted tight. Then, the wire nut goes on, just to cover/insulate the connection.

Many people just place the wires side by side, then twist on the nut, thinking that's adequate. This is incorrect, and leads to loose connections.

[Witt74]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

One thing to realize with wire nuts, they are not there to CONNECT the wires, but just to COVER the wires.

The most important part is the mechanical connection of the wires. The wires need to be twisted well together and twisted tight. Then, the wire nut goes on, just to cover/insulate the connection.

Many people just place the wires side by side, then twist on the nut, thinking that's adequate. This is incorrect, and leads to loose connections.

X2!!

[AKRUEBBE]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

One thing to realize with wire nuts, they are not there to CONNECT the wires, but just to COVER the wires.The most important part is the mechanical connection of the wires. The wires need to be twisted well together and twisted tight. Then, the wire nut goes on, just to cover/insulate the connection.Many people just place the wires side by side, then twist on the nut, thinking that's adequate. This is incorrect, and leads to loose connections.

I think these are a great tool for using wire nuts. really gets them snug.

https://www.amazon.com/Rack-Tiers-72...gateway&sr=8-7

[Vicr]

Bad information on wirenuts posted here. Here are the instructions from Ideal on how to use wirenuts:


Wire-Nut®Wire Connector InstructionsWARNING–SHOCKHAZZARDContact withelectricity can cause electrical fires,seriousinjury or death.Shut off power tothecircuitor remove fusebefore using this product.SAFETY NOTICEImproperly installed electrical wiring can be dangerous and cause electrical fires. The connector chosen must be sized tothe wires being used. Consult local building codes before doing any electrical wire and to determine installationrequirements. For assistance, refer to aninstructionalbook forelectrical installations or consult a qualified electrician.To be sold only with installation instructions.Installation Instructions1.Turn off power before removing or installing connectors.2.Strip connectors to the correct strip length per the chart below:ConnectorStrip length71B®*Stripsolid wires ¼”(6mm)Strip stranded wires 5/16”(8mm)72B®*Strip wires 3/8”(9.5 mm)Strip wires #16 and smaller ½”(13mm)73B®**Strip wires 5/16”(8mm)Strip wires #16 and smallerstrip 3/8”(9.5 mm)74B®**Strip wires 3/8”(9.5 mm)Strip #16 and smaller 7/16”(11mm)76B®**Strip wires#14 and larger 7/16”(11mm)Strip wires #16 and smaller½”(13mm)59B®**Strip wires 1/2"(13 mm)3.Straighten and align frayed strands.4.Hold wires together with ends even. Lead stranded wires slightly ahead of solid wires.5.Pre-twisting acceptable, but not required. For pre-twisting;strip wires long, hold wires togetherwith insulation even,twist wire ends together, trim to recommended strip length.6.Insert bundle into connector and twist clockwise until tight

[Vicr]

Again from 3M.3M Wire Connector Instructions.pdf

[wags999]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

One thing to realize with wire nuts, they are not there to CONNECT the wires, but just to COVER the wires.

The most important part is the mechanical connection of the wires. The wires need to be twisted well together and twisted tight. Then, the wire nut goes on, just to cover/insulate the connection.

Many people just place the wires side by side, then twist on the nut, thinking that's adequate. This is incorrect, and leads to loose connections.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...il&FORM=VIREHT

Actually that is not correct. This is just one of many videos and articles on how to use wire nuts. And it's also how I was taught when I became an electrician. This is from the wire nut Mfg on how to correctly use wire nuts on solid and solid and stranded wires.

Good Luck..

I still like the wiring push blocks as it's much easier to wire multiple wires together and they rarely if ever vibrate loose.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by wags999

Actually that is not correct. This is just one of many videos and articles on how to use wire nuts. And it's also how I was taught when I became an electrician. This is from the wire nut Mfg on how to correctly use wire nuts on solid and solid and stranded wires.

Hmmm, did you notice the next video after yours by Ideal (wire nut manufacturer) says to pre-twist the wire before putting on the wire nut?

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...6&&FORM=VRDGAR

[Vicr]

You pre-twist the strands in stranded wire because when you strip stranded wire the strands straiten out and twisting solid wire is not a requirement because the wirenut is designed to twist the wires as you tighten the wirenut. You're trying to argue your point with two electricians. I don't know about Wags999 but I have personally or supervised the installation of over a million splices using wire nuts. I have also used the push-in connectors manufactured by Wago and have used other brands.

[RetiredOne]

Your own post further up says "pre-twisting acceptable".

Pre-twisting acceptable, but not required. For pre-twisting;strip wires long, hold wires togetherwith insulation even,twist wire ends together, trim to recommended strip length.6.Insert bundle into connector and twist clockwise until tight

[Vicr]

...but not required. Most resi guys will pre-twist solid wires but they seldom splice any thing larger than #12 AWG. On commercial projects we are using wirenuts to splice up to #6 AWG with wirenuts and other connectors. Just about no one on a commercial job will pre-twist wires. The point is wirenuts are designed, manufactured and UL approved to splice wires, not just to "cover up" a splice.

[wags999]

Originally Posted by Vicr

...but not required. Most resi guys will pre-twist solid wires but they seldom splice any thing larger than #12 AWG. On commercial projects we are using wirenuts to splice up to #6 AWG with wirenuts and other connectors. Just about no one on a commercial job will pre-twist wires. The point is wirenuts are designed, manufactured and UL approved to splice wires, not just to "cover up" a splice.

X2

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by Vicr

...but not required.

Where did I say "required"?

[Vicr]

Pre-twisting acceptable, but not required. For pre-twisting;strip wires long, hold wires togetherwith insulation even,twist wire ends together, trim to recommended strip length.6.Insert bundle into connector and twist clockwise until tight

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

Where did I say "required"?

You didn't it was in the installation instructions.

[TnHiker]

In my 40 + years of electrical work, installation, and inspection I have never seen a properly sized and installed wire nut fail. The nut has to be correct for the wire size and it has to be installed correctly, if done correctly you're good to go. I only tape or recommend taping in a bad environment where corrosion is possible. I have owned 6 RV's and all of them had the scariest wiring you will ever find. The wiring in an RV would never pass in a residential, commercial, or industrial inspection. I have experience in all three area's. The first thing I do when I get an RV is inspect every inch of wiring that is accessible making corrections and upgrades as I go and pray for the wiring that I can't see. The best wiring and actually the best quality overall was the 98 HitchHiker I owned. I guess that's why they are out of business. We wouldn't pay for the details and cost of that quality. I always add extra smoke detectors in my campers. Mine has 3 detectors in it now. Good luck out there and be safe.

[Cannon]

When I purchased mine I installed a hardwired 50A ems behind the main distribution panel. I found three loose wires from factory, one neutral that had not been tighten at all. I went in basement and removed wall and check one's that I could get to. While I had wall out I added smoke detector behind basement wall and then added another one in bedroom.