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Old 04-27-2016, 09:27 AM   #21
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Thanks RedHorse1- forgive me for the questions, but remember I am a gasser and never have owned a diesel - The def tank - where is it, and how much does this fluid cost? I assume this injection is an automatic process?


Please help with any other thoughts on "above and beyond costs" of owning a diesel. I keep hearing how much more they are to operate, so I am trying to find out where all the $$ comes from; or goes to

thanks in advance.
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:24 AM   #22
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Thanks RedHorse1- forgive me for the questions, but remember I am a gasser and never have owned a diesel - The def tank - where is it, and how much does this fluid cost? I assume this injection is an automatic process?


Please help with any other thoughts on "above and beyond costs" of owning a diesel. I keep hearing how much more they are to operate, so I am trying to find out where all the $$ comes from; or goes to

thanks in advance.
- Oil changes cost more because they use 3 gallons of oil but you can go 7500-15,000 between them so probably a wash on cost.
- Fuel filters every 15,000 around $100 give or take.
- DEF every 6000-7500 which is about $14 bulk or $22 if you get the jugs.

With gas and diesel the same price these days the MPG of the diesel (especially when towing) will more than make up that $144 extra every 15,000 miles!
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:39 AM   #23
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The vast majority of cost delta is not going to be the regular maintenance (maybe the oil changes, they are kind of a pain, but I do my own, only costs me ~$45 each: $34 for 3 gals oil (Costco) and $10 or so for oil filter (bought in bulk online)).

But generally the price delta on initial purchase is around $8000 or more. This alone makes the diesel far more expensive to own, especially when the fuel is nearly at par.

That said, it's SOOOO nice going up the mountain passes!

ETA: I didn't mention DEF... I always forget about that. My truck is a 2012 Ram... no DEF
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:47 AM   #24
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Awesome guys!! thanks for the info. That is a nominal cost for operation. I understand the initial markup, just didn't know what else to "not expect".
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Old 04-27-2016, 10:53 AM   #25
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The cost of DEF (urea) runs about $7 per gal or if you get the 2.5 gal jug its $10-$12 bucks in all the years I have run diesels that require it.

Todays diesel is not the diesel of old, they engines often went a million miles, today not happing, not that the engine cannot, but the rules, regs, add ons imposed by the govt have burdened down the engines from simple to complex and extremely complex. Complexity increases component failure, that is a fact. Wanna go a million miles then the turbo to water pump has to be a million mile unit and defect free.

Diesels are bigger and require bigger effort to work on. Friend just blew the engine on his truck. To work on the engine (replace) they pull the entire cab off the truck and lift it on a lift while the frame and engine remains on the floor.

Then there is the USA factor, again the govt stepped in and all but said no to diesel. Most of the rest of the world uses diesels and have been since WWII. Why our govt has kept them out so long, not sure, but been tough to import to the US. Many US cars are and have been offered with diesel for export but not available in the US. Also cheaper to work on a diesel outside the US due to the amount of diesel mechs.

Don't let that deter you. If you want serious RVing then diesel is the choice. I years I carried a Truck Camper in the bed of my F 350, it weighed in at 5500+ fully loaded and I pulled a trailer also. No one ever had to honk to get me out of the way. In the mountains I drove left lane. Having 800 lbs of torque at my foot made driving easy and far less stressful. My new truck has 860 lbs of torque and is a dream to drive loaded.


At SOME Wal Marts you can get a cheap oil change. At mine its $8 bucks for my F 350 IF I bring in or buy separate the oil and filter they only charge for the labor. But I live out in rural ranch country and F 350's and diesels are common.
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Old 04-27-2016, 11:13 AM   #26
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Thanks RedHorse1- forgive me for the questions, but remember I am a gasser and never have owned a diesel - The def tank - where is it I don't have one, but I believe the DEF filler is usually right next to the fuel filler., and how much does this fluid cost? I assume this injection is an automatic process? Yes. It is part of the 'regen' process to clean the particulate filter. It occurs automatically and the time/distance varies upon driving speeds and loads.


Please help with any other thoughts on "above and beyond costs" of owning a diesel. I keep hearing how much more they are to operate, so I am trying to find out where all the $$ comes from; or goes to Virtually every part and all of the labor (if you don't do it yourself) for anything 'under the hood' costs more for a diesel.

thanks in advance.
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- Oil changes cost more because they use 3 gallons of oil but you can go 7500-15,000 between them so probably a wash on cost. I'm admittedly 'old school' and get nervous going that many miles. I'd suggest routine oil analysis (~$29) before committing to that. Ford says if towing over 1,000 miles, it is special operating conditions requiring more frequent oil changes.
- Fuel filters every 15,000 around $100 give or take.
- DEF every 6000-7500 which is about $14 bulk or $22 if you get the jugs.

With gas and diesel the same price these days the MPG of the diesel (especially when towing) will more than make up that $144 extra every 15,000 miles!
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Old 04-27-2016, 01:43 PM   #27
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You can run a higher gear with the diesel which really helps on daily driver duties. F250 and F350 are the same truck with different springs. Add timbrens to the 250 and it's more than a stock 350. However, there are those pillar stickers to consider, and that is a whole different discussion.
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Old 04-27-2016, 02:46 PM   #28
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Just to pick nits...I don't think the DEF is part of the regen process. DEF is for NOx (oxides of nitrogen) reduction and I believe it is continuously injected into the exhaust and helps the catalytic converter take care of the NOx. NOx is a big issue for diesels because of the high combustion temps and the excess of air in the combustion chamber.

During regen, or exhaust cleaning as Ford calls it, fuel is injected into the exhaust where it burns in the cat and into the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) to burn off the soot accumulated there. During regen, Ford fires the injector in cyl 8 (IIRC) during the exhaust stroke to get the fuel into the exhaust. I believe GM has an separate injector to do it. I don't know how the Dodge engines do it.

Frequency of regen depends on the load on the engine...more load, more soot so the dpf needs cleaning more often. My F250 will regen about every 100 mi when towing our fiver, esp in the mountains. Not towing, it'll go 150 to 200 mi or more. Regens last about 15-20 miles at highway speeds, longer for slower speeds. I've read it uses about two gal of fuel for a regen but I don't know if that's true.

As to gas vs diesel, lots of good points so far here. IMO, I wouldn't tow a fiver with a gasser, esp in the mountains here in the west. As always, tho, YMMV...
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Old 04-27-2016, 08:15 PM   #29
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Diesel all they way. You'll love it. Def is cheap on sale for 5 dollars or non sale 7 for 2.5 gallons last about 5000 miles. Oil changes wash in price think i use 3 quarts more then my f150 change it half as often so actually save $$. Miles per gallon unloaded freeway 21mpg combo city freeway in summer 18.5 winter 17.6. Towing camper with lead foot because you can! Price less at 14 mpgs uphills down hills bring all bigger the better. Smile on your face very big....you can't go wrong. Resale value is awesome as well. I did a ton of research ask lots of questions verdict is Diesel all the way no worries just do it. You can pick up a slightly used one to save $$. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 04-29-2016, 03:04 AM   #30
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Just to pick nits...I don't think the DEF is part of the regen process. DEF is for NOx (oxides of nitrogen) reduction and I believe it is continuously injected into the exhaust and helps the catalytic converter take care of the NOx. NOx is a big issue for diesels because of the high combustion temps and the excess of air in the combustion chamber.

During regen, or exhaust cleaning as Ford calls it, fuel is injected into the exhaust where it burns in the cat and into the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) to burn off the soot accumulated there. During regen, Ford fires the injector in cyl 8 (IIRC) during the exhaust stroke to get the fuel into the exhaust. I believe GM has an separate injector to do it. I don't know how the Dodge engines do it.

Frequency of regen depends on the load on the engine...more load, more soot so the dpf needs cleaning more often. My F250 will regen about every 100 mi when towing our fiver, esp in the mountains. Not towing, it'll go 150 to 200 mi or more. Regens last about 15-20 miles at highway speeds, longer for slower speeds. I've read it uses about two gal of fuel for a regen but I don't know if that's true.

As to gas vs diesel, lots of good points so far here. IMO, I wouldn't tow a fiver with a gasser, esp in the mountains here in the west. As always, tho, YMMV...
Yup, true about the DEF and regen. You will use more DEF during a regen, but the def injection is not part of the regen process.

Cummins (dodge) injects their fuel for regen into the cylinder like Ford does. I belive the cummins being an inline 6 cylinder injects into each cylinder for regen fuel, and the Ford being a V8 injects into 1 bank (4cylinders) for regen fuel....i just dont remember which bank it is.
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Old 04-29-2016, 05:39 AM   #31
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.

Frequency of regen depends on the load on the engine...more load, more soot so the dpf needs cleaning more often. My F250 will regen about every 100 mi when towing our fiver, esp in the mountains. Not towing, it'll go 150 to 200 mi or more. Regens last about 15-20 miles at highway speeds, longer for slower speeds. I've read it uses about two gal of fuel for a regen but I don't know if that's true.
Are you sure about this? I ask because I drive a fire truck for a living and it sure seems to be the opposite. We had trucks without def fluid that needed to be regened, and it was certainly the opposite. If you where at a hall that had long fast runs and you worked the engine regen frequency was greatly reduced. Down town where you can never get rpm's up for very long, we needed to manually regen all the time. That being said, our new trucks with the def fluid never have to be manually regened. So maybe a completely different set up. Thanks
And for the record, if the def fluid is what deters you from owning a diesel, I've heard some people say, you are either full of it or lazy as ****. It's like filling up windshield wiper fluid every now and then. Not a big deal!
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Old 04-29-2016, 06:25 AM   #32
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I own a 2015 Ram 2500 with the 6.7 L engine. Sounds like most of you know when your engine is in regen mode. I cannot tell when my Ram is in this mode. I can see Ford when it is bellowing the black smoke, is in regen mode, at least the older models. What do I look for to know when the Ram is in Regen mode. I do run the auto exhaust brake most of the time and for the life of me, I can't tell when it is in regen mode. I do know that it takes along time for the DEF fluid to get down low. What should I be looking for???
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Old 04-29-2016, 06:34 AM   #33
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My 2016 Ford tells me it is regen mode on the dash. No black smoke no matter how hard I push it.

I moved from a gas to diesel and I will never go back while owning a travel trailer. Put the cruise on 65 and enjoy the trip.


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Old 04-29-2016, 11:10 AM   #34
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Are you sure about this? I ask because I drive a fire truck for a living and it sure seems to be the opposite. We had trucks without def fluid that needed to be regened, and it was certainly the opposite. If you where at a hall that had long fast runs and you worked the engine regen frequency was greatly reduced. Down town where you can never get rpm's up for very long, we needed to manually regen all the time. ...
My F250 does not use DEF so I don't know what affect that has. I do know that when on the highway at a constant speed on fairly flat roads it takes about 15 miles for the regen to finish, towing or not. When we tow in mountains on the way to our favorite campground there's lots of steep upgrades & downgrades, fast & slow, and it'll take up to 40 miles for the regen to finish. I think it's because the exhaust temp varies quite a bit, going way down on downgrades, where we're essentially coasting with the throttle closed, to way up on the slow steep upgrades. It has to attain a certain exhaust temp for the regen to work, if it get's to low it can't burn the soot. Also, on the upgrades where it's loaded the engine will generate more soot that has to be burned off. There's no way to manually trigger a regen on my truck (I wish there was). I suspect your fire truck uses different parameters for the regen, it has quite a different usage profile than a general use pickup truck.
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Old 04-29-2016, 11:16 AM   #35
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My 2016 Ford tells me it is regen mode on the dash. No black smoke no matter how hard I push it.

I moved from a gas to diesel and I will never go back while owning a travel trailer. Put the cruise on 65 and enjoy the trip.
Yep, that's the point of the DPF, all the soot (black smoke) is filtered out...it's still being generated but it's trapped in the DPF. If you get black smoke from a truck with a DPF, there's something wrong. Your tailpipe will always be nice & clean, too. Mine looks like new, not a trace of soot. The exhaust doesn't even smell like a 'normal' diesel either.

I agree about towing with a diesel...we just smile & wave when we pass those gassers laboring up the mountain grades.
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Old 04-29-2016, 04:41 PM   #36
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I own a 2015 Ram 2500 with the 6.7 L engine. Sounds like most of you know when your engine is in regen mode. I cannot tell when my Ram is in this mode. I can see Ford when it is bellowing the black smoke, is in regen mode, at least the older models. What do I look for to know when the Ram is in Regen mode. I do run the auto exhaust brake most of the time and for the life of me, I can't tell when it is in regen mode. I do know that it takes along time for the DEF fluid to get down low. What should I be looking for???
If you listen close at a hot idle, can you hear your def injecter clicking?

Thats the only taddle tale I've found on my 2013 ram. If the def injector is clicking like crazy, its in regen mode. You can also smell it in slow traffic if you pay attention....it smells similar to a really hot wood heater to me. Normal hot idle the def injector clicks every 3-5 seconds.

I've herd the def injectors are quiter on the newer trucks....so you may not be able to hear it.
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Old 04-30-2016, 10:59 AM   #37
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I own a 2015 Ram 2500 with the 6.7 L engine. Sounds like most of you know when your engine is in regen mode. I cannot tell when my Ram is in this mode. I can see Ford when it is bellowing the black smoke, is in regen mode, at least the older models. ...
Uhh...no. If a truck with a DPF is 'bellowing' black smoke at any time, there's a major problem somewhere. That's the function of the DPF...to filter out the smoke. My F250 has never emitted the slightest wisp of smoke, black or otherwise. When it starts the regen it will display a message about cleaning the exhaust filter but it's only displayed for a few seconds and easy to miss. I have an Insight Edge monitor to display more info, mostly temps, but it will also indicate when it in regen.
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