Scale Weights

[kevin]

We are planning on primarily boon docking out West which means for us allot of cargo as full timers. The trial run (this was our first time out of the driveway with our new used fifth wheel after bringing it home and actually getting it backed in the driveway - - there is a god) brings many questions however. The first being weight. I went to Flying J just down the interstate from me and used the CAT scale. It was very busy and we're newbie’s so I didn't want to try unhitching (I had visions of an upside down trailer and amazed on lookers pointing and posting phone footage to Facebook live). I thought I could at least get an education from the weigh ticket.

Equipment:
TRUCK: 2016 RAM Diesel 2500 Laramie Longhorn Crew Cab 4X4 Long Box; GAWR Front-5,250, GAWR Rear-6,340, GVWR-9,900, GCWR-28,700
HITCH: 16K Patriot Hitch
TRAILER: 2010 Jayco 313RKS 35'; GrossWeight-13,750, Tandem Axles 6000ea (3"Dia)

First weigh ticket ($11):
Steeraxle-5,180, Driveaxle-6,840, Traileraxle-9,980, GrossWeight-22,000

At the time I was not clear on the trailer axle limits (going only on the trailer GVWR) and nervous about the truck rear weight limit looking to be over by 500. We went home and I removed things I would like to bring when full timing (extra tools, extra propane cylinder, etc) and about 1/4 of the fresh water. I left on the two regular 30lb full propane bottles and all the interior cargo (groceries, clothes, etc).

Second weigh ticket ($2 - if your new too, tell em its a second weigh):
Steeraxle-5,380, Driveaxle-6,620, Traileraxle-9,720, GrossWeight-21,720

I don't understand the Steer axle increasing on the 2nd weigh. We didn't swing by Wendy's for lunch and the dogs weren't jumping up and down. The Drive axle did come down though. Now I'm a little over on both but the trailer has room judging by the Trailer axle numbers. I always like to error on the side of caution so I would probably not go past a gross trailer weight of 12,000 based on each axles 6,000 rating and ignore the 13,750 suggested by the manufacturer.

I have two questions. Any technical input and/or experiences welcome.
1) Is the answer to reaching weight limits on the truck but having slack on the weight limits on the trailer to raise my fifth wheel hitch (will this shift the weight onto the trailer and off the truck)?
2) I would like to get back all the goodies I had in the basement on the first weigh (its bad enough I had to sell my prized wheelbarrow in a yard sale for pennies on the dollar to commit to full timing, I'll cry if I have to sell the new chain saw). Will raising the hitch balance out that first weigh enough or is that just too much to ask for?

[Doug]

Some of the 5ver's will chime in. I've never own one.
The front axle increasing could very well be the rear raising just like a WDH.

Best regards,
Doug

[koweb]

Originally Posted by kevin

Equipment:
TRUCK: 2016 RAM Diesel 2500 Laramie Longhorn Crew Cab 4X4 Long Box; GAWR Front-5,250, GAWR Rear-6,340, GVWR-9,900, GCWR-28,700
HITCH: 16K Patriot Hitch
TRAILER: 2010 Jayco 313RKS 35'; GrossWeight-13,750, Tandem Axles 6000ea (3"Dia)

First weigh ticket ($11):
Steeraxle-5,180, Driveaxle-6,840, Traileraxle-9,980, GrossWeight-22,000

Sorry, I can't comment on your questions; I'm new also and we are waiting for our new 317RLOK on order...

But, I'm curious about your TV specs... I have a 2016 RAM Limited CC 4x4 shortbox, with the factory air suspension. My GAWR front is 6,000 and rear is 6,500. GVWR is similar at 9,900 but GCWR is lower at 25,300.

Not sure why the differences? Is your truck US or Canadian? (mine is Canadian).

Bradk

[Rustic Eagle]

Kevin,

Welcome to JOF

The TV's 5th wheel hitch isn't designed to transfer weight back to the FW, so I doubt that you will experience any note worthy weight being transferred by raising the 5th wheel hitch.

The reason that your 2nd CAT weigh resulted in additional weight being placed on the TV's front axle could be a couple things: Driver/Passenger condition/location differed between 1st & 2nd weigh....., or by removing FW cargo the reduction in FW pin weight placed over the TV's rear axle effected the weight placement via the TV's frame (physics).

The fact that your CAT results are exceeding both your TV's GVWR and rear GAWR implies that the loaded pin weight exceeds your 3/4 ton truck's capabilities. Many FW's loaded pin weights fall in the 20% range of the FW's gross weight, but full-timers can easily be in the 25% range because of the additional cargo associated with this type of travel life style.

Based on your targeted loaded gross FW weight of 12,000lbs the recommended pin weight range would be 1,800lbs (15%) to 3,000lbs (25%). But, not unusual for "full-timers" gross scale weight to fall near/at the FW's GVWR.

Having the CAT weight of your loaded TV "unhitched" would confirm your FW's loaded pin weight and "actual" FW gross weight. Also, this weigh-in will confirm how much remaining payload capacity your TV has for "pin weight".

Bob

[Cdash]

If your front axle weights are changing, I would suspect that your hitch is not centered over the axle and is likely begins the axle. This would explain a lighter pin weight resulting I heavier steer axle. Basically, the pin weight pushes down on the back of the truck, causing the front to come up.

[Catalina27]

Seems like you have a bit of a problem of being over the GVWR of your truck with your trailer hitched up. The individual GAWR axle ratings of your truck are important as they are the maximum weight that can be safely handled by the axles, however the total of the axle weights cannot exceed the GVWR.

In other words if your rear axle is loaded to the GAWR of 6340 pounds then the maximum front axle weight can only be 9900-6340=3560 pounds and still be within the truck's GVWR. GVWR represents the total of the unloaded truck weight (or curb weight) plus cargo, fuel and anything else in the truck. In the case of your first weighing, the gross weight of your TV was 5180+6840=12020 pounds. That puts you 2120 pounds over the truck's GVWR and that is where the problem is.

Hope this helps explain the different ratings on your truck. Just remember the primary rating is the GVWR and you should not exceed that, nor should you exceed the GAWR's.

[goducks]

You're grossly overloaded plain and simple. No sugar coating this one.
You'd be right on the edge with a 3500 SRW also. A 3500 SRW has a GVWR of 12,300 lbs. You're at 12,020 right now.
I would be seriously looking at a 3500 DRW.

[vcbice]

The change in front axle is probably due to just changing pin weight. The fifth hitch point is frequently just a bit off from centerline of the rear axle. If yours is to the rear a little (very common) then making the pin weight less will put more weight on the front.

Glad you are measuring your load instead of guessing. More people should do that.

PS it looks like you should move a lot more weight to the rear of the trailer. We had to do that with ours as I started witha 2000lb pin weight. We are now down to about 1600lb just by moving the load around.

PPS GVWR on the trailer includes axle and pin weight. So, 12k lb on the axles and 1750lb on the pin is how they are figuring the 13,750 GVWR.

[kevin]

My error. My GAWR numbers were from a 2016 RAM 2500 Towing Chart prior to purchase. The sticker on my truck matches your GAWR numbers and the GVWR is 10,000. I'm not sure where I got that GCWR number now so I guess I am back to using the chart number which is 25,300.

[kevin]

Originally Posted by vcbice

Glad you are measuring your load instead of guessing. More people should do that.

PS it looks like you should move a lot more weight to the rear of the trailer. We had to do that with ours as I started with a 2000lb pin weight. We are now down to about 1600lb just by moving the load around.

PPS GVWR on the trailer includes axle and pin weight. So, 12k lb on the axles and 1750lb on the pin is how they are figuring the 13,750 GVWR.

I am glad too. We're running this project on a budget and its all been a huge learning curve for me, especially with the weights. A lot of info to sort through.

My prior experience was owning a class C that we used a few times a year mostly close to home under the load and go rule of thumb figuring its just a U-Haul with amenities. This time around I decided to get real since I've never owned a truck or towed a trailer.

I put in a new generator and 4 golf batteries which I may have to take a bath on if I need to trade in for a lighter FW but it beats the alternative of having someone get killed. With my correct TV GAWR in hand (6,000 front and 6,500 rear - thanks again koweb for bringing that to my attention), we are going back to weigh the truck alone with us and the dogs as Rustic Eagle suggested and look at shifting weight as you recommend.

Greatly appreciate all the info from you folks. Each piece of the puzzle is giving me a much greater understanding.

[MikeNChelle]

Originally Posted by koweb

Sorry, I can't comment on your questions; I'm new also and we are waiting for our new 317RLOK on order...

But, I'm curious about your TV specs... I have a 2016 RAM Limited CC 4x4 shortbox, with the factory air suspension. My GAWR front is 6,000 and rear is 6,500. GVWR is similar at 9,900 but GCWR is lower at 25,300.

Not sure why the differences? Is your truck US or Canadian? (mine is Canadian).

Bradk

OP Has a long bed. That makes a difference.

[goducks]

This all could've been a non issue if the dealer was upfront when they sold the unit.

[kevin]

The dealer had a custom trailer business as well as selling new and used RVs, talked at length with me about my truck and did the install on the Cummins 5500 LP generator (288lbs) and 4 golf cart batteries. So it does raise an eyebrow or two they didn't see a problem lying in weight (pun intended).

I spent a year pouring through the details though.
No one to blame but myself for missing the finer points. I can be as good a barn cleaner as I can a pack rat. We'll see if this ship can't still be righted.

We've been meaning to diet anyway

[goducks]

Staying under the RAWR is the key. I'm over on GVW by 200lbs. Whoop T do. Under RAWR by 1100lbs. Thats the paradox of owning a 2500. My 12 is virtually a 3500 with different rear springs. So for me I'm not the least bit concerned.
Stay under the RAWR and tire ratings and all should be fine.

[dhawken]

Originally Posted by goducks

Staying under the RAWR is the key. I'm over on GVW by 200lbs. Whoop T do. Under RAWR by 1100lbs. Thats the paradox of owning a 2500. My 12 is virtually a 3500 with different rear springs. So for me I'm not the least bit concerned.
Stay under the RAWR and tire ratings and all should be fine.

Does that imply you're over on the FAWR? And if so, that should be ok? Genuinely asking, not trying to be the tow weight police.

[goducks]

No I'm under FAWR by 700 lbs. My rear comes in at 48-4900, my fronts at 4800 +/-100. My GVWR is 9600lbs. I routinely (Oregon has free scales open all the time) pass over the scales for giggles so my weights are really consistent. I seem to be around 9800lbs for the truck and 7300lbs on the 5er axles. Pins about 1800 or so.
My stickered weights are
GVWR 9600
RAWR 6000
FAWR 5500.
Payload 2176
I upgraded my tires and rims so I've got a big cushion there. 6830 lbs.

[kevin]

On the way home from the camp ground we hit the scales again to implement some of the previous suggestions.

Summary
Equipment:
TV: 2016 RAM Diesel 2500 Laramie Longhorn Crew Cab 4X4 Long Box; GAWR
Front-6,000, GAWR Rear-6,500, GVWR-10,000, GCWR-25,300
HITCH: 16K B&W Patriot Hitch
FW: 2010 Jayco 313RKS 35'; GrossWeight-13,750, Dry Weight 10,070, Tandem Axles 6000ea (3"Dia)

First weigh ticket:
Steeraxle-5,180, Driveaxle-6,840, Traileraxle-9,980, GrossWeight-22,000
Second weigh ticket:
Steeraxle-5,380, Driveaxle-6,620, Traileraxle-9,720, GrossWeight-21,720
Third Weight ticket:
Steeraxle-5,340, Driveaxle-6,300, Traileraxle-9,620, GrossWeight-21,260
(moved all cargo to rear of the FW axles and emptied all tanks except propane)
Final Weight ticket - TV ONLY (with fuel, two adults and dogs):
Steeraxle-5,360, Driveaxle-3,500, Traileraxle-0,000, GrossWeight-8,860

If I'm getting this, it suggests the TV can only take a maximum Pin weight of about 1,140 and the FW is weighing around 12,500 with a pin weight of 2,800 (22%). The GVWR needs work but the TV axles are in range

I'm mulling over pulling out the one recliner (unit was short one) and the double bed sofa. Both of these items seem rather heavy and easily replaced with two lighter comfortable chairs for occasional TV viewing and encampment on rainy days. We really looked hard for a used unit that had space for us, two large dogs and wasn't over 35ft. Some sites can't handle the larger lengths.

My big mistake was focusing too much on the FW GVWR and the GCWR for both, not understanding you're only as good as your weakest link. Lesson learned.

[scooch]

2

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[Rustic Eagle]

Kevin,

Originally Posted by kevin

snip..... If I'm getting this, it suggests the TV can only take a maximum Pin weight of about 1,140 and the FW is weighing around 12,500 with a pin weight of 2,800 (22%).....snip

I agree with your results....., and good move weighing your TV unhitched.

Originally Posted by kevin

snip..... you're only as good as your weakest link....snip

Well stated.

Bob