Worst fit and Finish I have seen

[RP53]

Originally Posted by Rustysocket

My observation is that a high percentage of RV buyers at this build level tend to be shortsighted cheapskates, and will drive an extra 10 hours out of their way to avoid spending that extra thousand dollars with their local dealer.

I drove 300 miles to buy mine simply because my local dealer is an ahole and wouldn't work with me at all the people at Colerain in Cincinnati treaded me like I was part of the family

[Camper_bob]

+1 to Wags on his post.

And I'll add this: I'm a small business owner who has had to stand up and face the music for some pretty serious mistakes or errors or oversights or whatever you want to call it. I can say without a doubt that I have learned 2 things: 1) I will do better next time and 2) I'm a lot slower about hammering someone else for their own mistakes. Now granted, I do expect people to own their mistakes (all too uncommon these days), but I do not expect perfection because it doesn't exist. The fact is that we're all humans, and humans are prone to make errors. It's how we handle them after the fact that makes the difference. In my experience, Jayco and my dealer have stepped up to the plate every time. And thankfully, they haven't had to do it often.

If you get up in someone's face and start hollering about how much they don't care, and their quality is garbage, and this and that and the other, I can promise you one thing; they won't care. If you treat that person in a calm, professional and polite manner and give them the opportunity to solve the issue, 9/10, they're going to fix your problem if they can.

[bankr63]

The only thing I see wrong with Wags point is his analogy to the automotive industry. The number of initial defects in automobiles has actually decreased significantly in the past 40 years (trying to find the cite for this, but read it in a LTS/TQM text probably) attributed primarily to the amount of automation added to the assembly line, and to Kaizen initiatives at the manufacturers driven by offshore competition. And yet, automobile purchases actually take less of our disposable income than they did back in the 70's, and are much more feature rich (i.e. complicated) than they used to be. My mom's 70's era Pinto econoboxes rusted away every 4 years, my wife's 00's era Versa econobox hasn't got a spot of rust or had a major repair in 12 years.
I agree that RV quality is slipping in the quest to remain competitive, but it doesn't have to be this way. Maybe when we start getting the Australian Conqueror trailers or similar products in North America, a quest for best quality will begin instead. Jayco could learn the lessons from the automotive sector that fixing it after assembly is generally much more expensive than building it correctly the first time.
Also, the supply chain needs major rework. When new trailers arrive with 3-year old tires mounted, it only proves that there are serious problems with supply chain management. I don't think we should be apologists for the manufacturers, I think we should be pushing for them to take a hard look at their business models and realize that, based on the automotive industry experience, they CAN have their cake and eat it too (deliver a quality product while maintaining profit margins).

[ready2retire&drive]

As a business owner I have to agree with camper_bob. When my customers approach me with a problem and we both are calm and realize that the problem has be resolved it goes much smoother and the mutual co-operation make the issue to be dealt with go easier. My previous m/h was a different make and dealer and trying to get repairs or warranty was like trying to pull teeth from a chicken nearly impossible and frustrating ( A sell you a unit then ignore you type of rv dealer) The dealer I bought my Jayco from (All they sell and carry is the Jayco line) has been amazing and when I have called Jayco the response has been stellar and quick. But when talking to both it is calm and quiet with a mutual respect and all issues have been dealt with quickly and in a timely manner. But again there is not a product or item that may have issues and in most cases the people you bought it from want to make it right for you

[homer1959]

Does it cost more to install electrical receptacle , door, cabinet straight and level ?
Does it cost more to tight fitting and or piping properly or improperly ?

Does it cost more to install furnace ducting properly or not properly ?

Would it cost more to sweep under the coach, the furnace etc etc, would it be hard to pick up the tye-wraps, electric wire insulation ?

Why they keep using defective components for years I.E Tank level sensor, would it cost a lot more to mass produce a different sensor ? Its not like they have just received a bad batch !!!

We often hear dont sweat the small stuff, but actually the small stuff is the one making me sweat, I'd rather have the TT roof flying off the trailer than chasing water leaks after water leaks , or having to deal with soft floor or what else :-)

The PDI should not turn as a super investigation , I should not have to climb on the roof, or to lean under the trailer just to make sure that the 30 thousands dollars was well spent on a quality product. We are lucky that Jayco stand by their product however we should not have imho to become close friend with the service manager to be fully happy with our purchase

No one ask for a revolution in the industry.....

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by homer1959

Does it cost more to install electrical receptacle , door, cabinet straight and level ?
Does it cost more to tight fitting and or piping properly or improperly ?

Does it cost more to install furnace ducting properly or not properly ?

Would it cost more to sweep under the coach, the furnace etc etc, would it be hard to pick up the tye-wraps, electric wire insulation ?

Why they keep using defective components for years I.E Tank level sensor, would it cost a lot more to mass produce a different sensor ? Its not like they have just received a bad batch !!!

We often hear dont sweat the small stuff, but actually the small stuff is the one making me sweat, I'd rather have the TT roof flying off the trailer than chasing water leaks after water leaks , or having to deal with soft floor or what else :-)

The PDI should not turn as a super investigation , I should not have to climb on the roof, or to lean under the trailer just to make sure that the 30 thousands dollars was well spent on a quality product. We are lucky that Jayco stand by their product however we should not have imho to become close friend with the service manager to be fully happy with our purchase

No one ask for a revolution in the industry.....

You make an excellent point. But yes, all those seemingly small items DO cost more. Some of those costs can be tiny and seemingly insignificant from a single unit perspective, but add up as more units are produced. An extra few minutes on each unit can add up to a lot of time over thousands of units.

So, what to do? The factory is willing to allow a certain level of error to go through to keep production levels and profit margins high. The individual worker doesn't have time to "sweat the small stuff". If a screw goes in sideways, he doesn't have time to sit there and remove the screw and reset it, he just loads up another one and moves on. Same with cleaning all the shavings and wire clippings. There simply isn't time, and manufacturers are willing to forego those "small" items to get the unit produced faster.

They have to figure that that some costs of fixes after the unit is shipped (warranty work) are acceptable to keep targeted production levels. When a warranty expense becomes more than it would cost to slow down or re-work the production line, you can bet they're going make a change at the source. But as long as it's cheaper to do the warranty work after the fact, (or in many cases gamble on the customer doing the fix), they're not going to slow it down or make a change. And when you're talking about thousands of units, what is that "acceptable" failure rate? Keep in mind here that Jayco Jayflight is the best selling travel trailer in the US for a few years now, and they beat their own record production levels each year.

Do I agree with this? Personally, no, I don't agree with it. I would rather take an extra minute or two to tidy up my area and make sure everything is laid in perfectly, but I have much more time than the factory worker. He/she has a certain level of expected productivity and a certain error level is anticipated.

All that said, eventually the quality will fall to a point where people stop buying, and warranty claims begin rising, and dealers begin squawking about warranty work they're not getting paid enough for. This will force the manufacturer to make a change or give up market share. Unfortunately, I think many manufacturers are short-sighted here and will keep going until it's too late and their brand has been eroded so badly that there's no coming back...

[homer1959]

Camper Bob :-) I agree with what you are saying here, thats true for all kind of production .

However Jayco and others are not helping their case, we have read here many times that the workers are encouraged to work fast to go home early with full pay.....

So they run run and run, going home is more important than screwing the molding properly, or even worse to replace the moulding they have splitted in 2 with their screw gun.

They must find an happy medium, its not true and its never true that you can make in 4 hrs what needs 8 hrs to do.

You can look at it 2 ways, either your workload evaluation for a period of 8hrs is all wrong if the employees can run away from the worksite after 4 hrs, or you use this system for not paying them well to get your production

But hey dont take me wrong I love my Jayco..... :-) I just want to love my next one even more lol

[wags999]

Originally Posted by bankr63

The only thing I see wrong with Wags point is his analogy to the automotive industry. The number of initial defects in automobiles has actually decreased significantly in the past 40 years (trying to find the cite for this, but read it in a LTS/TQM text probably) attributed primarily to the amount of automation added to the assembly line, and to Kaizen initiatives at the manufacturers driven by offshore competition. And yet, automobile purchases actually take less of our disposable income than they did back in the 70's, and are much more feature rich (i.e. complicated) than they used to be. My mom's 70's era Pinto econoboxes rusted away every 4 years, my wife's 00's era Versa econobox hasn't got a spot of rust or had a major repair in 12 years.
I agree that RV quality is slipping in the quest to remain competitive, but it doesn't have to be this way. Maybe when we start getting the Australian Conqueror trailers or similar products in North America, a quest for best quality will begin instead. Jayco could learn the lessons from the automotive sector that fixing it after assembly is generally much more expensive than building it correctly the first time.
Also, the supply chain needs major rework. When new trailers arrive with 3-year old tires mounted, it only proves that there are serious problems with supply chain management. I don't think we should be apologists for the manufacturers, I think we should be pushing for them to take a hard look at their business models and realize that, based on the automotive industry experience, they CAN have their cake and eat it too (deliver a quality product while maintaining profit margins).

I guess we agree to disagree. I don't see quality going down at all. The RV industry is shipping many more units than they did in the past, and we still see few problems. I picked up my unit in Middlebury, it was made on a Friday. I did my PDI, took about an hour, and then lived in it for the next 5 months. I had no issues of any substance. I had a screw loose here or there that was about it.
I have not seen RV's coming with 3 year old tires, or with defective parts at all. Does it happen? Maybe, but it's not the norm. And, if you did get an RV with 3 year old tires, I would look more at your dealer than the Mfg. If you saw the Jayco campus, which is made up of multiple factories.. you would understand. They actually have very little "stock" of parts on hand, maybe a weeks supply. They produce hundreds of units a week, I dare say they don't have a screw that is three years old, let alone tires. I think the RV industry, which I have NOTHING to do with, other than as a customer, does a great job. They put out a quality product, and, if a problem arises, at least at Jayco, they stand behind their product and make it right. no one can ask for more than that.

Maybe the RV industry will get to the point they can use robots, as the auto industry has done. Perhaps then every screw will be installed perfectly and every nail is exactly in the correct spot. But you will sacrifice your choices if you want robotic consistency.

The handful of issues we see on here, for the most part are taken care of by the dealer and Jayco... I can ask for nothing more from a manufacturer except to stand behind their product.

We all have choices and, if Jayco was so horrible (or any other mfg) the marketplace would quickly put them out of business. Many times we see the problems are as much a result of lack of knowledge of the owner, as poor quality by the mfg.

We now have had our unit over a year, it has never been in for any warranty issue, or any other issue to be honest. Everything works great, we have had zero issues. And again we will use it for 4 - 5 months every day.

I've two recalls on my new car I purchased two weeks before our RV. I have had none on my Rv. just saying...

[schiguy]

I am new to Jayco and have so far been nothing but impressed. When we did our PDI there were one or two little things that the dealer was able to fix in about 5 minutes. We are completely pleased with the product and the quality of the unit in general. Our last camper was a TT that was 1/2 the length and 1/3 of the weight. With a much more advanced and larger unit there are bound to be more things that can go wrong, but so far we are beyond impressed with Jayco's product. Given the experience that I have had so far with the dealer, and with the manufacturer, I can easily see me being Jayco loyal for a lifetime. I thoroughly enjoy this Forum and I have learned so much from such a varied group of experts and amateurs alike. I enjoy the fact that I can voice a problem or concern and in short time I find an answer to my problem. Keep up the good work my fellow campers!!

[Camping Grandpa]

Half of the cabinet doors in our new 321 are poorly finished. The edges are roughly sanded if at all and if you just wipe a paper towel along the edge ya come up with paper stuck to the wood. Dealer blew me off and said I couldn't expect any more quality for the price. I'll bring it up again when I go back for some warranty issues later this month. Couldn't believe his answer. I've never had RV or home cabinet doors finished so poorly. I snagged a good dri-fit t shirt on one of the closet doors.
If the dealer doesn't order new doors I'll call Jayco directly.
Otherwise we really like the 5er so far.

[wags999]

Originally Posted by Camping Grandpa

Half of the cabinet doors in our new 321 are poorly finished. The edges are roughly sanded if at all and if you just wipe a paper towel along the edge ya come up with paper stuck to the wood. Dealer blew me off and said I couldn't expect any more quality for the price. I'll bring it up again when I go back for some warranty issues later this month. Couldn't believe his answer. I've never had RV or home cabinet doors finished so poorly. I snagged a good dri-fit t shirt on one of the closet doors.
If the dealer doesn't order new doors I'll call Jayco directly.
Otherwise we really like the 5er so far.

Jayco purchased their doors prefinished from the same company that supplies most of the doors for the industry. If not finished it's wrong, but a very easy fix. Take a purple scotch brite pad and gently "sand" the rough edges, spray with a lacquer, sheen to match what you have. Dealer should be able to do this in a few minutes per door. It's irritating but not a big deal to fix. I believe the company does their finishing automatically on a line, one of the brushes used to sand the sealer before the top coat goes on was obviously not doing the job.

Good Luck.

[Camping Grandpa]

That's what I originally expected him to do...I'll make my request again. He said it would ruin the finish and wouldn't do it.
I may resort to doing it myself if he squawks.
Thanks for the suggestion.

[Drifter1959]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

+1 to Wags on his post.

And I'll add this: I'm a small business owner who has had to stand up and face the music for some pretty serious mistakes or errors or oversights or whatever you want to call it. I can say without a doubt that I have learned 2 things: 1) I will do better next time and 2) I'm a lot slower about hammering someone else for their own mistakes. Now granted, I do expect people to own their mistakes (all too uncommon these days), but I do not expect perfection because it doesn't exist. The fact is that we're all humans, and humans are prone to make errors. It's how we handle them after the fact that makes the difference. In my experience, Jayco and my dealer have stepped up to the plate every time. And thankfully, they haven't had to do it often.

If you get up in someone's face and start hollering about how much they don't care, and their quality is garbage, and this and that and the other, I can promise you one thing; they won't care. If you treat that person in a calm, professional and polite manner and give them the opportunity to solve the issue, 9/10, they're going to fix your problem if they can.

X2

[Edd505]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

The fact is that we're all humans, and humans are prone to make errors.

That's why they put erasers on the end of pencils!
+2 to Wags on his post.

[homer1959]

We had to be good at plumbing, at carpenting, now we have to be good at cabinet work .... Can we charge them back for our time ? :-)

[wags999]

Originally Posted by Camping Grandpa

That's what I originally expected him to do...I'll make my request again. He said it would ruin the finish and wouldn't do it.
I may resort to doing it myself if he squawks.
Thanks for the suggestion.

if they don't know what they are doing yes its POSSIBLE to sand through the finish. But all you want to do is de nib the raised fibers enough to recover. Mohawk makes spray tints that are used when refinishing or touching up furniture, cabinets etc. It's amazing what you can do and make the repair almost invisable, including filling holes drilled wrong. If it's just the edge of the door, I would sand with the scotch brite, and spray with the face of the door down. That way any overspray would be on the back of the door and not an issue. Good Luck.

[cariboocreek]

I didn't have to sand and repaint my truck, which by the way cost me as much (brand new) as my fifth wheel. When I purchase a product for $68,000 I shouldn't have to be a handyman. I don't complain much about it online, but in reality the quality assurance coming out of the factory is poor. Yes a proper PDI is important but I also shouldn't have to do a half day tear down to re-assure myself that the toilet will flush.

[Trackermi]

Originally Posted by Ela1948

I think you are wrong about the manufacturer not caring. Jayco has always responded to problem issues if there is legitimate problems given to them in a reasonable atmosphere!

I call BS on that one, I had tons of issues with mine. They could care less and I posted of them. Jayco's quality took a horrible left turn in the last few years or at least it's all hype. Coming from our Outback trailer, Jayco finish, reliability and quality has been beyond dissapointing.


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[Trackermi]

Originally Posted by wags999

I get really tired hearing about how Mfg don't care about quality.. if there is a lack of quality it is more a reflection of society. People don't care, they don't care about their jobs, they don't care about others, you see it daily. Go in a grocery store and you see people parking carts right in the middle of the aisle, oblivious to others around them. You see it driving, people will cut you off with no regard, we see It in campgrounds. People checking in or leaving before or after hours making noise again with no regards to others.

Mfg can only hire so many people. Jayco I know, cares about quality. They have a team that checks EVERY unit before it leaves the line, but its PEOPLE. Humans, who sometimes don't care as much as they should. BUT Jayco for one, stands behind their product. They step up by covering it under warranty...

Until were all perfect we should not expect other humans to be perfect. We hear about this problem or that problem and then hear Jayco took care of it. What more do we want? Do I expect a perfect product ? I would like that but I certainly know with the mindset of workers today I certainly don't expect it. It's easy to get on our high horse about how companies don't care how they have poor management etc, but, I dare say most on here have made mistakes also. It's not a company that's bad its the PEOPLE the company hires that fail to do their job, and that may include those hired to make sure others do their job.

We take little things and make them the biggest issue in the world, in the overall scheme of life, not much of what we "worry" about has any real impact on anyone's life. If it's broke, they will fix it, yea it's going to take longer than you want, of course, they dealer can't hire good people either, it's not because they don't want to fix it quickly.

Don't like the fit and finish of a unit, then don't accept it. Only when you do your job to perfection, never making even a small mistake, can you then expect the same of others....but be prepared to pay for perfection, cause your not paying for perfection when you buy 99% of the RV's today. You get a good product, that is a good value, and does a good job...

Sorry for the rant, but hearing people beat dead horses over trivial crap over and over again gets old after a while.

Today's RV's are so much more complicated than RV's from 20, 30 or 50 years ago. It's easy to say things were built so much better in the past, when cars didn't come with a heater or a radio, let alone AC, power seats, cruise, back up cameras, GPS etc etc etc...same with RV's. I salute the manufacturers today, who build a good product at a fair price to a growing bunch of whiney customers. I'm so happy NOT to be in business today, and having to deal with the public. They public has gotten more demanding while only wanting to buy the cheapest product they can.. (can you say wal mart). You get what you pay for, and in most cases more than you paid for.

Wow, way to set sub par standards. While I agree with part of your posts, most issues people report are around the crappy reliability and build quality related to issues. I had a list of 10 broken things or inoperable things on our trailer and we are supposed to be OK with this.

At least Walmart accepts returns, then I think it's safer to say most deal with it or return it.

Your statements make no sense and promote idiots in the workplace vs. increasing the capability of our working population.

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[wags999]

Originally Posted by Trackermi

Wow, way to set sub par standards. While I agree with part of your posts, most issues people report are around the crappy reliability and build quality related to issues. I had a list of 10 broken things or inoperable things on our trailer and we are supposed to be OK with this.

At least Walmart accepts returns, then I think it's safer to say most deal with it or return it.

Your statements make no sense and promote idiots in the workplace vs. increasing the capability of our working population.

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And almost 100% of the issues discussed on here have been taken care of by Jayco. Many of the issues are "expectations" that nothing will ever go wrong, that you can tow a trailer down the highway at 65 MPH over rough terrain and it should be perfect. I have NEVER purchased a PERFECT product, I don't care if it's a house or a tool. Nothing in this world is perfect if you look hard enough. Some folks just like to whine, and we have seen people who don't even own a Jayco come on here and complain, and say how great their old unit was. If it was so great, why not buy another one?

No one should accept a product that doesn't work, but a scratch on a piece of vinyl trim is not the hill to die on, sorry to burst that bubble. If anyone can point out a clear issue of Jayco screwing up and them telling you they don't care their not going to do anything about I I would love to see that communication. Jayco is not perfect, but, from personal interaction and the interaction of others I have met, they have always bent over backwards to make it right. I dare say I never had more issues than I did when I purchased 3 vans for my business from Ford, who were all screwed up and they never could make them right. Or the Chrysler van that had three transmissions in the first 15,000 miles. I won't even go into detail about the transmissions on a Saturn Vue we had, what a piece of crap that was, and, in all those cases they tried and failed to make it right and I was on my own. Had to dump those vehicles to get rid of the problems.

If a scratch on your trim is the hill you want to die on, go for it. For myself life is too short to be upset over something I can take care of in a few minutes. To each their own. I'm happy with my TT, I'm more than happy with my "online dealer" and with Jayco. I have never had to take my TT in for warranty work and, most likely would not take it to a dealer anyway, I rather use local independent repair shops, as I do for my vehicles. Cost less and less "hassle". My goal in life is to be hassle free, i'm doing ok so far. I fight like hell on big issues and smile and shake my head and fix the little ones. I'm not perfect, why would I expect anyone else to be? Heck, even Jesus couldn't please everyone.

Good Luck, and hope your problems get taken care of before the chest pains get the best of ya....life is short ya know.