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Old 10-13-2014, 06:13 PM   #21
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We have been down this road many times over the years. Yes, they could (and should) make them better. If Jayco spent $12 in every area that needed improvement, the prices of their products would be higher than their competitors and buyers will go for the best price every time. Jayco would go out of business and you would get poor quality from another company. It's an industry problem. I think it's a much bigger issue than TT manufacturing, but this forum probably isn't the place to decide that.

Edit: In years to come, we will be even less satisfied when we have to order TT kits from foreign countries. (I really hope it doesn't come to that.)

2nd Edit: Better yet, if that happens, I'll camp in a tent or rough-it at a cheap motel.
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Old 10-13-2014, 06:45 PM   #22
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How many Expy's does Ford sell a year? $20 per car, estimate 100,000 Expeditions is TWO MILLION DOLLARS...

Easy to understand why they cut corners...
Exactly my point. Nickels and dimes. Two million is a lot to me. It's a rounding error to Ford, GM.

And if five percent of those buyers decide they'll go with Land Cruiser, Armada, etc., Ford loses nearly a quarter of a billion in sales at dealer level! Detroit did just fine, even with union demands, until they failed to match the quality of the foreign competition. They lost something like 30 percent of the market in roughly a decade.

And that's what happens when forward thinking ends at the next quarterly report.
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Old 10-14-2014, 04:40 AM   #23
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Disclaimer: We love our fifth wheel.

First trip out:

1. Upper cabinet door fell off (hinge screw stripped).
2. Black water valve leaked (found out the old fashioned way).
3. Two seperate sections of baseboard popped off.
4. Cable for recliner rocker (to release the latch to let it recline) broke.
5. Left rear power jack would not come down (Atwood auto system).
6. Wall paper bubbled in two different areas.
7. Lock on outdoor kitchen door would not unlock. Correct key but lock fell apart.
8. Rear window (the big one) would not tighten up all the way. Spent the return trip duct taped to keep from flopping around.

I said in a previous thread that for $60k I would expect better.

I also dont believe that this is specific to Jayco. Good friends have an Open Range and they have similar concerns. I am sure that in every brand forum there are similar stories being told.
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Old 10-14-2014, 04:42 AM   #24
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I should also add that our dealer has corrected all of these issues appropriately. No muss no fuss.
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:57 AM   #25
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... to quote Cariboocreek: "I also dont believe that this is specific to Jayco. Good friends have an Open Range and they have similar concerns. I am sure that in every brand forum there are similar stories being told."

That's the point I was trying to make in my previous post. The issue too big for this forum is the EGO and GREED that drives illegitimate business. The good players are caught up in the crappy economics that cause us to purchase inferior products at inflated prices.

I think Jayco does a terrific job in an economic environment that is not consumer friendly.

The mission statements of the large corporations are marketing fabrications the read well. What they are really saying is - "I" want more.
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Old 10-14-2014, 06:42 AM   #26
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If you study the history of manufacturing carefully you will find that outsourcing was the key to improving quality in american manufacturing. Lots of opinions out there but that is the actual bottom line.

Vertical integration has the effect of freezing technology based upon internal tooling cost burdens that can't be absorbed into the next generation of product. In effect you are chained up to the way you are tooled up.

Not sure about the RV industry as to how vertical they are. But in the auto industry the tier system and global outsourcing has changed the nature of keeping up with fast moving demands of consumers. An example is owning a huge engine block casting foundry that makes 3 to 5 years of inventory......so how do you change the engine platform or make the required changes to meet the new standards? you can't.

I have been in new business development for 40 years and about to retire.
If anyone in the RV industry was to ask me what one single thing is most important in making a quality product I would answer this way: it's in your paperwork. If your top management requires a "living" quality system be written and followed things will improve on a constant basis. The quality system has to cover every nut and bolt from purchasing to going out the door. You buy good parts and assemble them to a standard work instruction and you get quality.
And stop all inspection. Looking at something "after the fact" is an old failed idea.
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Old 10-14-2014, 08:27 AM   #27
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I have purchased 3 new Jayco trailers since 1993. I'm not going to list all the little issues I fixed myself. What I will say is that over all construction is solid. Finish work leaves much to be desired and both the management and workers should be ashamed. That said, the sad state of affairs is that Jayco remains one of the better RV manufacturers in the market. As already mentioned, it has everything to do with cost control.

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I know the repair of misassembled and damaged brakes on my unit cost them over $900.00 under warranty because I had it done on the road.
Interesting. Both my '03 and my '13 Jayco's had issues with brake parts loosening up and coming apart inside the drum. I fixed both myself because it was cheap and easy, and I didn't have to leave it at a dealer for 2 weeks. Fortunately there was no major damage in either incident. But I wonder, how much of that is Jayco, and how much is Dexter Axle? Keeping in mind that the axle assemblies are delivered to Jayco ready to install.

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And stop all inspection. Looking at something "after the fact" is an old failed idea.
I disagree with your assessment. Its not the "after the fact" inspection that is the problem. It's what they have failed to do with it that's the issue. If the results of such inspections had been used to go back and look at the steps in the process that caused the issue in the first place, and more over, fix them, then quality improves. That doesn't preclude what you already said about having a "living" quality system. Both are important.
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Old 10-14-2014, 08:35 AM   #28
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I disagree with your assessment. Its not the "after the fact" inspection that is the problem. It's what they have failed to do with it that's the issue.
Inspection is not a driver of quality. Whatever drives quality comes before inspection. And when it works as it should inspection of processes and controls is all that is needed. Deming 101
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:06 AM   #29
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I've had what I feel are more than my share of issues with my Jayco. It's been back to the dealer several times, the trailer was sent to the factory once for repairs to the LR slide and like others that have posted, I've done many, many repairs myself. (The factory repair as far as I'm concerned was mediocre just like the original build).
But we just keep buying poor quality, fix it ourself and assume its all part of the rv'ing adventure?????
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Old 10-14-2014, 09:31 AM   #30
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Inspection is not a driver of quality. Whatever drives quality comes before inspection. And when it works as it should inspection of processes and controls is all that is needed. Deming 101
I don't disagree. But we both have different experiences and see this differently. I've done project management for a good many years. Production runs are really just projects when all is said and done. Good project management says you also do the back end as well (post-mortem analysis), and feed that back into the process. Doing only the inspection of processes and controls is like locking the front door of your house but leaving the back door wide open and never checking to see if someone walked in. You're assuming that all is good. It's checks and balances. You miss a lot about the quality of your processes if you don't inspect on the back end, worse you just keep making the same mistakes over and over again.
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Old 10-14-2014, 10:51 AM   #31
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I don't disagree. But we both have different experiences and see this differently. I've done project management for a good many years. Production runs are really just projects when all is said and done. Good project management says you also do the back end as well (post-mortem analysis), and feed that back into the process. Doing only the inspection of processes and controls is like locking the front door of your house but leaving the back door wide open and never checking to see if someone walked in. You're assuming that all is good. It's checks and balances. You miss a lot about the quality of your processes if you don't inspect on the back end, worse you just keep making the same mistakes over and over again.
I don't disagree as long as you do go back all the way to the paper and see if:
1) You asked for the wrong thing
2) You didn't get what you ask for.

We could most likely have a very long conversation (war stories) in this area. Hope we camp close enough to do that one day.
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Old 10-14-2014, 11:16 AM   #32
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So, Doc and Elder, how about a few remarks on what the toable RV industry could/should do to improve their products, understanding you're not going over their books and through their plants.
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Old 10-14-2014, 12:09 PM   #33
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eldermike & DocBrown: Your posts have a more informed view of what is happening because of your backgrounds. Most of us have a more emotional response because we don't have your experience. What we do seem to agree on is quality should be improved.

... quoting eldermike, "If you study the history of manufacturing carefully you will find that outsourcing was the key to improving quality in american manufacturing. Lots of opinions out there but that is the actual bottom line." If that's the case (and I really think you know what you are talking about), why are the answers being found in foreign countries? What did the USA lose, or what did we never have that we have to be told how to build something?
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Old 10-14-2014, 01:13 PM   #34
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eldermike & DocBrown: Your posts have a more informed view of what is happening because of your backgrounds. Most of us have a more emotional response because we don't have your experience. What we do seem to agree on is quality should be improved.

... quoting eldermike, "If you study the history of manufacturing carefully you will find that outsourcing was the key to improving quality in american manufacturing. Lots of opinions out there but that is the actual bottom line." If that's the case (and I really think you know what you are talking about), why are the answers being found in foreign countries? What did the USA lose, or what did we never have that we have to be told how to build something?
Well I think we are improving in manufacturing today, its a curve and we are on the way up in the curve. I hear people talk about labor costs as the reason so much manufacturing has been sent off to China. However that is only part of the answer. It's impossible to keep up with technology in manufacturing to begin with. Look around outside the factory and you can find processes you don't have in-house and these processes allow you to move quickly to changes that consumers demand. Otherwise you turn inward and try and change a long standing culture that's been built up in-house over many years. It's logical it had to go outside.

I think the days of vertical manufacturing are gone. Its much to slow and it builds a momentum against change. It's a force for holding back progress. That is the reason it went out of the country. Molders know how to mold, screw machine houses do better with those processes. If you bring these inside you create a kingdom and the kingdom has power over the progress of the company.

We are getting there in understanding the pace of change and how to setup a company to be light on it's feet. It takes solid engineering and a strong team of indirect labor people such as purchasing and quality engineering. Direct labor has to be fluid, skilled in several areas, willing to move and where it's not then automation comes in. We can't be tied to "this is the way we do it" thinking.

A make/buy decision is a key decision in manufacturing. Do we make this part or buy this part?

I call old manufacturing "grey power" driven. A few bright people make all decisions. The new way is paper driven. It runs on data and documents, it's designed to work and when it fails the design is changed until it works.

I did not say I like the way things are but they are what they are.
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Old 10-14-2014, 01:16 PM   #35
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So, 6 trips in with the new trailer and my back rest for my dinnet has pushed away from the rear of the bench. I can't believe that these were just stapled together. So, from the campsite, went to local Home Depot, $12 worth of brackets and screws and it's fixed. Seriously Jayco, $12 to make this seat bullet proof and you couldn't do it from the factory? I hope the rest of the trailer staples don't start popping out that easy.
It's funny how the people who have had issues are able to fix it right. Some things are just obvious and should have been built that way in the first place. Sure its nice when jayco comes through for us as long as the fix is something that won't happen again six months later. If you can't find a fastener that will work in the partical board maybe use wood only where needed. Maybe use one L bracket where its vulnerable and maybe the other staples will stay together These cabinets and dinnettes are not are not like the prefab desks or tables that we buy and just sit in the corner without any stress put on them. I don't mean to criticize just suggesting a way to improve the quality without to much cost.
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Old 10-16-2014, 11:37 AM   #36
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Everything in life is temporary and that applies to your travel trailers. You have to enjoy them even with their flaws, because you know if there were all built like watches, they would cost twice as much. In my own 2015 trailer, I looked at the way the couch and my murphy bed was constructed and had to think, "that want last long with my heavy body loading it". Still I feel I will have fun with it even with a weak couch. There will always be a better trailer out there that will catch my eye, and maybe I'll have time to buy another and leave the problems in my old one for someone else to fix. If I dont have time, no matter, I have a better home awaiting me in the end.
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Old 10-16-2014, 12:25 PM   #37
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I am glad that I am fairly "handy". When I buy a travel trailer my primary concern is that the structure is strong, the roof is solid, and the appliances are reliable. When it comes to fit and finish I expect at the price point I paid it will probably be mediocre. I expect to do things like change out the fixtures for solid household ones vs. plastic, add hinges to things that are not hinged, add lifts to things that should have had them but don't, upgrade the bed mattress, etc., etc. Those are little jobs I can do myself and I just come to expect to need to do them.

Now, if I was paying top dollar, it would be another story. But, to get what I have for only about $30K I can accept these things. I feel that for the price paid I can't complain too much.

Try investing in a boat. LOL A travel trailer is way more affordable.
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Old 10-16-2014, 12:50 PM   #38
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That's what I said a few times. Unless you are buying a 600K coach (even they can have problems) you can't expect much. Its pays to be handy. "bring it back to the dealer" is not really a choice for me as they are 3 hours away and not worth the gas or time to bring it, and pick it up, to fix and they most likely will do a half ass job anyway. Plus you learn your trailer as you go and can fix stuff better than stock !! I really don't want to see my dealer again until I'm ready to trade it in..
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Old 10-16-2014, 01:01 PM   #39
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I feel the same way.
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Old 10-17-2014, 07:39 AM   #40
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Wow this has turned into a polite, informative and powerful thread. Most of us agree we like the Jayco product line but for sure we feel that Jayco should do better job. Why should we have to repair their mistakes?
Jayco could cut its cost by doing it right at the factory, once and done most of the after delivery repairs could be eliminated.Why does Jayco want to pay thousands of dollars to make repairs after delivery, because it is the accepted practice?Jayco needs to work smart. Their approach to production needs some management and attitude adjustment. I don’t buy into economics influencing work pride and ethics and yes Deming could certainly teach this trailer industry a thing or two.
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