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Old 03-25-2017, 08:35 PM   #1
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Towing ?

We have been looking at a Jayco White Hawk 25BHS for our Family of 6 and 2 German shepherds. This will be our first trailer and we have two options to tow:
1) 2017 Nissan NVP 3500 HD V8
2) 2015 Chevrolet Suburban 4X4

We have been told we can tow it with the Suburban but the more research I do it sounds as if it is overloaded. We went by our local dealership and of course sales at the RV place says we can tow anything on the lot. The trailer sticker says 6041 lbs. the Burbs max capacity is 8000 we are already upside down with no people or gear just on capacity. Payload is just under 1500. The Nissan has a payload of 2500 and max towing of 9500 +|- is the Nissan the best option we would like to know that it has some room left to tow and that we aren't maxing either out. A truck really isn't an option with 4 car seats and 2 dogs. I just am looking for the safest and smartest option for our family. Thanks so much!

Also: already planning for weight distribution hitch and electric trailer brake.
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:42 PM   #2
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Don't look at the max towing weight my Yukon can tow 8100 on paper but when looking at the max tongue weight that the receiver can take and the max cargo it can never happen.

The number you want to look at on the trailer is the GVWR. This is the max weight of the loaded trailer. Then 12-15% of that is your tongue weight plus what the WD hitch weighs. Guess about 80lbs. Take that number and add in the weight of passengers, animals, cargo and any aftermarket add ons in the truck. Is that number greater than the cargo weight?

If so maybe take two vehicles. Pack everyone and some cargo in the suburban and tow it with the Nissan.

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Old 03-25-2017, 09:02 PM   #3
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The GVWR of the trailer is 7250. Payload on Nissan 2490 and Burb is 1496.
People 700 lbs with 2 dogs
Hitch 85
Camping supplies I read an average of 1000-2000lbs. But those would mostly be in the trailer maybe and addition 2-300 of traveling gear in the trucks.

Are those all things to consider?
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:04 PM   #4
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I see you posted the same basic question over on the Jayco RV Club on Facebook. This is actually a fairly easy question. Pretty much ignore the manufacturer's tow capacity numbers. Pay attention to these:
  • GCWR of the tow vehicle - do the combined GVWRs of the tow vehicle and the trailer exceed that number? Do not exceed that number. This is a safety issue.
  • GVWR of the trailer - IGNORE "dry weight" numbers and do your calculations based on the MAX rated weight of the trailer and contents. Based on that GVWR, calculate the hitch (or tongue) weight of the trailer, usually 10-15% of the GVWR. Call it 13% for the sake of argument. The GVWR of that Whitehawk is 7250, for a tongue weight of 725-1087 pounds; at 13% it's 942 pounds.
  • Payload capacity of your planned tow vehicle - Add up the weight of the passengers, luggage and other cargo, full gas tank, PLUS the tongue weight of your trailer and the weight of your hitch. If that total exceeds your tow vehicle's payload capacity, you've got a problem.
  • Your tow vehicle may also include specs for maximum hitch weight if it has a factory-installed tow package. Don't exceed it.
After all that, load everything up, family and all, hitch up the trailer (fully loaded), and head for the nearest CAT scale. The results may surprise you. But this will also help you set up your weight distribution package.


Good luck and happy camping!


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Old 03-25-2017, 09:09 PM   #5
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Follow-up: I see you posted the payload capacity of the Suburban as 1500 pounds. The Whitehawk's tongue weight is close to 1000 pounds. That leaves you 500 pounds for passengers and cargo. Doesn't looks like the Suburban is a good choice for towing that trailer.

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Old 03-25-2017, 09:18 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by happycampof6 View Post
The GVWR of the trailer is 7250. Payload on Nissan 2490 and Burb is 1496.
People 700 lbs with 2 dogs
Hitch 85
Camping supplies I read an average of 1000-2000lbs. But those would mostly be in the trailer maybe and addition 2-300 of traveling gear in the trucks.

Are those all things to consider?
Try and carry no cargo in the truck. I know it isn't possible but the cargo weight in the truck is where we are all hurting. Granted you don't want to push the GVWR of the camper but I use that as a worst case number. Every pound sitting over the axle doesn't count toward cargo in the truck. Like I said in my Yukon, on paper I can tow 8100. In real world using GVWR I had to say under 7000. My camper comes in at 6750 and 15% of that is 1012.5# if I recall and as I mentioned 1000 is my receiver max on the truck. That isn't remotely close to an 8100# trailer so they might as well just gone ahead and said I can tow 100,000# if they plan on handicaping the trucks with limited cargo capacity like this. The bare mins on tongue weight for stability reasons is 10% of GVWR but I don't want to run that low of a % but will shoot for 13% by throwing everything heavy in the back of the trailer as I am hoping I can mount a shelf above the propane tanks to carry a generator. Anything up on the A Frame there will almost go 100% toward tongue weight.

So you if the trailer is 7250 * .15 = 1087.5 add your people, critters and cargo to that to get your total cargo number. Based on that you can probably just get by with the Nissan. But like I said put everything in that trailer that you can. It isn't like putting something in the camper means you can never use it. I don't know how old the kids are but even if it means putting something like diapers in the camper, unless you are changing them while underway, you have to stop anyhow so they might as well be in the camper. You can still get in it with the slides in but test that. For instance, I can't open our bathroom door with our slide in.

Also consider maybe doing more of your shopping once you get to your destination. Of course that depends on where you are going but if there are grocery stores near by there isn't a reason you can pack light on the food, enough to get you by for the first night and the start of the next day and run into town after you are established. Or grab that stuff as you get closer to your destination. The lighter you run the less fuel you will burn. That is why if you can hold off on filling your FW tank until you get to your destination or close to it, that would be better than hauling all that weight.
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:23 PM   #7
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Nissan Payload is 2490
- people 690
- tongue weight 950
- hitch 100 = 1740
+ gear 500= 2240

Do I have to count the cargo that is in the trailer or does that go toward camper weight if it is packed there? We will likely travel with maybe around 500 lbs in the cab of overflow items from the trailer if need be.

Is that all correct? If that is the case seems like the no brainer is the Nissan. I had never even heard of these measurements until 3 days ago. I appreciate your patience and help very much. When googling towing a trailer the first thing that pops up are all of the images of people towing to much weight and the cars flipped over and wrecked. I don't want to put my family at risk and couldn't get good answers from the sales people or our chevy dealer. Thanks again!
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:44 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by sennister View Post
In real world using GVWR I had to say under 7000. My camper comes in at 6750 and 15% of that is 1012.5# if I recall and as I mentioned 1000 is my receiver max on the truck. That isn't remotely close to an 8100# trailer so they might as well just gone ahead and said I can tow 100,000# if they plan on handicaping the trucks with limited cargo capacity like this.
It seems clear that manufacturer towing capacity numbers are NOT based on travel trailers that put so much of their weight on the hitch. More likely the numbers are based on utility trailers and such, where the trailer's weight is almost entirely on the trailer's wheels. Tow capacity numbers are obviously not based on anything in the real world - at least not in our real world.

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Old 03-25-2017, 09:46 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by happycampof6 View Post
Nissan Payload is 2490
- people 690
- tongue weight 950
- hitch 100 = 1740
+ gear 500= 2240

Do I have to count the cargo that is in the trailer or does that go toward camper weight if it is packed there? We will likely travel with maybe around 500 lbs in the cab of overflow items from the trailer if need be.
It depends. That is why I was saying put as much cargo as you can in the camper. It can be free weight and only goes against the GVWR of the camper. The reason I said that it depends though is because if you throw it all in the front pass through storage or under the front bed a % of it will add to your tongue weight. Basically a trailer is like a big teetertotter. Anything in front of the axles pushes down on the tongue. The closer it is to the axle the less % is on the tongue and more on the axle. Then when you get to storage behind the axles it is the opposite effect. Something in the way back like in the bunk area is actually going to start lightening your tongue weight up a bit. Be careful not to load too much back there and get below 10% of the trailers GVWR but you can free up a bit of cargo weight in the truck by playing this balancing game.
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Is that all correct? If that is the case seems like the no brainer is the Nissan. I had never even heard of these measurements until 3 days ago. I appreciate your patience and help very much. When googling towing a trailer the first thing that pops up are all of the images of people towing to much weight and the cars flipped over and wrecked. I don't want to put my family at risk and couldn't get good answers from the sales people or our chevy dealer. Thanks again!
Sales people want to make sales. You would think at least the truck sales people want to move you up into a bigger truck but they don't. Honestly if you ask me it is a marketing thing. One truck manufacturer says their towing capacity is ____. So the competition has to match them. They never talk about cargo capacity on these TV commercials. Just towing capacity which the way the numbers work, they might as well say a 1/2 ton truck can tow 100,000# because no one can do it safely. Sure someone will argue that they would be held liable if someone got hurt because someone actually tried it. Well people try and pull 8100# and wreck the trucks because they didn't have enough tongue weight or blew way past the cargo limits. I would argue that is no different. I really think that people just get confused with all the advertising and there are so many numbers and how does one number impact the next. For instance one thing I am not 100% sure on is the relationship with the GVWR on the trailer and tongue weight. I just run on the side of caution and say lets pretend the trailer is 7250 and 15% is the tongue weight because I like a safety margin. Lets say you really were running that heavy and your trailer actually was 7500# and overweight. However when you factor in 1000# of tongue weight that is going against your cargo limit. Well that is because it is weight applied across the hitch to the truck. So technically that weight isn't on the trailer anymore so the trailer that just sitting there and was overweight now technically would weigh 6500# and be good because of the 1000# being shifted to the truck. That is the way I would read it but like I said, I would rather have that 1000# as a safety margin on the trailer's GVWR.

Another thing to look at (not that you want to look up more things) but what is the max weight that the axles can take on the Nissan? That is another area where people run into problems. Most of the time you are ok but it is another factor.
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Old 03-25-2017, 09:51 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by happycampof6 View Post
Nissan Payload is 2490
- people 690
- tongue weight 950
- hitch 100 = 1740
+ gear 500= 2240

Do I have to count the cargo that is in the trailer or does that go toward camper weight if it is packed there?
Your trailer's manual probably gives you some instructions on how to distribute cargo weight in the trailer. Every pound you put in the trailer adds to the total weight on the trailer's wheels and hitch. In any case, you need to be careful not to exceed the GVWR of your trailer, which is its dry weight plus cargo payload, INCLUDING things like water and propane! We've been telling you that some of the weight of the trailer will rest on the hitch, usually around 10-15%. It's a big balancing act!!!



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Old 03-25-2017, 09:53 PM   #11
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It seems clear that manufacturer towing capacity numbers are NOT based on travel trailers that put so much of their weight on the hitch. More likely the numbers are based on utility trailers and such, where the trailer's weight is almost entirely on the trailer's wheels. Tow capacity numbers are obviously not based on anything in the real world - at least not in our real world.

Roger
I don't know about that. We used to go fishing up in Canada and we would take a heavy duty boat trailer and take two fishing boats one sits normally in the trailer all our gear goes inside and the other boat upside down so it was like a big clam going down the road. We were normally OK on the way up but there was more than once where we would run into sway issues on the way back because we are loading gear that was often wet along with a ton of fish and dirt. The sway wasn't caused by big flat sides and cross wind like we get with campers but simply going down a hill and all of a sudden the trailer with the boats starts to sway. The scary thing was we had no trailer brakes.

If anything utility trailers are easier to load and get the load in the wrong spot. We have a bobcat trailer which I swear the tandem axles are set up wrong on it because when it is empty it wants to sway pretty bad. When loaded I always have the dirt, mulch or whatever I am hauling loaded to the front which helps but it is a challenge. I have been meaning to get the torch out and move those axles back a bit.

Really the only scenario where I could see my truck pulling 8100# and getting close to that max towing weight is if it was a trailer like a hay wagon. Where the axles were at the front and back of the trailer and there really isn't any tongue weight. While I have several trailers, a hay wagon isn't one of them. They just confuse me too much trying to back them up so I wont' buy one.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:10 PM   #12
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Really the only scenario where I could see my truck pulling 8100# and getting close to that max towing weight is if it was a trailer like a hay wagon. Where the axles were at the front and back of the trailer and there really isn't any tongue weight. While I have several trailers, a hay wagon isn't one of them. They just confuse me too much trying to back them up so I wont' buy one.
Try this one:

How A 5,600-Pound Toyota Towed A 292,000-Pound Space Shuttle

I don't think hitch weight was an issue.



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Old 03-25-2017, 10:14 PM   #13
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Try this one:

How A 5,600-Pound Toyota Towed A 292,000-Pound Space Shuttle

I don't think hitch weight was an issue.



Roger
Yeah, see that is my point. The only way it can be done is a hay wagon style trailer. They pulled a 292,000# trailer. Like I said why do they both saying it is limited at 8100#, why not say 100,000#? Granted they were not trying to go 60mph with that much weight and the trailer had more brakes than the truck when it comes to stopping that much but it can pull it...
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:27 PM   #14
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We have been looking at a Jayco White Hawk 25BHS for our Family of 6 and 2 German shepherds. This will be our first trailer and we have two options to tow:
1) 2017 Nissan NVP 3500 HD V8
2) 2015 Chevrolet Suburban 4X4

We have been told we can tow it with the Suburban but the more research I do it sounds as if it is overloaded. We went by our local dealership and of course sales at the RV place says we can tow anything on the lot. The trailer sticker says 6041 lbs. the Burbs max capacity is 8000 we are already upside down with no people or gear just on capacity. Payload is just under 1500. The Nissan has a payload of 2500 and max towing of 9500 +|- is the Nissan the best option we would like to know that it has some room left to tow and that we aren't maxing either out. A truck really isn't an option with 4 car seats and 2 dogs. I just am looking for the safest and smartest option for our family. Thanks so much!

Also: already planning for weight distribution hitch and electric trailer brake.
The RV dealer will tell you whatever to sell you. The place I bought my 25BHS said I could tow it with my 2007 Tahoe. This being my first trailer I planned on buying a smaller one but the wife loved this model so we asked can we tow it cause it looks pretty big? They looked at my car and said yes no problem. So I bought it that day and picked it up a week later. The tech guy said it was pretty hard to get the WDH dialed in so be careful. Well not really knowing what he meant until I drove it home about 45 miles did I wonder if I bought something to big or is this what towing a trailer I like?? I was barely staying in my own lane the wind was blowing me all over the place. Needless to say I didn't sleep that night cause I was searching the internet with all that I could find about towing. See I towed 2 pretty big boats in the past but I always had a pick up truck and everything thing was good. I actually found this forum that night and ever since then which almost a year now I'm on this site learning all kind of stuff. Well I called the dealer in the morning sick to my stomach but they continued to say I would be fine. LIARS! The next few weeks were a living hell and fortunately I was financially ok to buy a new truck which I did the F150. I still didn't know enough about stuff like payload and TW and I wish I did cause I would of bought a 250/2500 but this is my everyday driver. My truck works perfect but I'm close on my payload numbers because I have a big family but it is still very safe. Then to make matters worse I took my trailer back for minor fixes and was treated like dog sh#& because everyone heard of my complaints for selling me instead of informing me. Now I can never go back. Fortunately there is another dealer who had heard of many back things about RV Supercenter so they told me they would take care of anything I needed even though I didn't buy through them. Technically they need too cause they are a Jayco dealer but they were so nice. Anywho do all your research before buying. Not sure if you are looking at the Whitehawk model 25BHS but to let you know a 1/2 ton will pull it no problem. Anything bigger well of course is that much better. Good luck to you and your family and happy camping.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:30 PM   #15
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Your trailer's manual probably gives you some instructions on how to distribute cargo weight in the trailer. Every pound you put in the trailer adds to the total weight on the trailer's wheels and hitch. In any case, you need to be careful not to exceed the GVWR of your trailer, which is its dry weight plus cargo payload, INCLUDING things like water and propane! We've been telling you that some of the weight of the trailer will rest on the hitch, usually around 10-15%. It's a big balancing act!!!



Roger
Out of curiosity what is your thought on the relationship between GVWR on the trailer and Tongue weight?

If the OP loaded his trailer to 7500# as it sits on the ground not hooked to anything. He is technically 250# over GVWR. But for simple math lets say the tongue weight was 1000# because that would be in the 13-15% we usually say. Since the 1000# is being carried by the truck and not the trailer, and provided he doesn't go over the cargo weight of the truck and not over the combined max weight, technically this would be fine since the 1000# was no longer being carried by the trailer.

I assume this is the case because I would imagine that the trailer is on a pair of 3500# axles. So at 7250# the trailer would be 250# over weight on the axles unless that weight doesn't count because it is transmitted through the tongue to the truck.

Also a point on your comment above. While I agree that all weight added to the trailer gets you closer to the GVWR of the trailer. It wouldn't necessarily result in a net gain on the hitch weight depending on where it is placed in the camper. It would if it is placed anywhere from the axles forward. However lets say 100# in duffle bags is added to the bunks way at the back. The bunk is rated to 600# so that is fine. The 100# goes against the GVWR number and because that bumps a bit it would add a little to the tongue weight. For simple math lets use 15% so 15# more tongue weight. However because the weight is so far in back of the axles it would result in a net loss of weight on the tongue. One could estimate that it may reduce the tongue weight by 80% of what that cargo item weighs. So again simple math that is 80# less tongue weight because it is so far back. Resulting in a net loss of 65# of tongue weight by putting 100# in the back of the trailer. Of course I am just using rough numbers for easy off the top of my head math but the logic is sound as long as the limits are not hit. I do agree it is a balancing act. Keep your light, bulky cargo up in that pass through storage area. Heavy stuff in the back and as long as you can keep an eye on that % TW keeping it 12-15% you should be fine. I don't like getting below 12% because if you can't dump your black tank, that is in the back of the trailer so pulls a lot of weight from the tongue along with the grey tank and might sneak you below the 10% bare mins.
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:03 AM   #16
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On a related note I am looking at purchasing a 5th wheel 32 feet or less. I don't want to be up against any limits, preferring safe to sorry. I just got a GMC 3500 with duramax and allison transmission. With that am I basically good to go without worries (Just the wife, myself and 2 parrots)?
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Old 03-26-2017, 05:07 AM   #17
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Out of curiosity what is your thought on the relationship between GVWR on the trailer and Tongue weight?

If the OP loaded his trailer to 7500# as it sits on the ground not hooked to anything. He is technically 250# over GVWR. But for simple math lets say the tongue weight was 1000# because that would be in the 13-15% we usually say. Since the 1000# is being carried by the truck and not the trailer, and provided he doesn't go over the cargo weight of the truck and not over the combined max weight, technically this would be fine since the 1000# was no longer being carried by the trailer.

I assume this is the case because I would imagine that the trailer is on a pair of 3500# axles. So at 7250# the trailer would be 250# over weight on the axles unless that weight doesn't count because it is transmitted through the tongue to the truck.

Also a point on your comment above. While I agree that all weight added to the trailer gets you closer to the GVWR of the trailer. It wouldn't necessarily result in a net gain on the hitch weight depending on where it is placed in the camper. It would if it is placed anywhere from the axles forward. However lets say 100# in duffle bags is added to the bunks way at the back. The bunk is rated to 600# so that is fine. The 100# goes against the GVWR number and because that bumps a bit it would add a little to the tongue weight. For simple math lets use 15% so 15# more tongue weight. However because the weight is so far in back of the axles it would result in a net loss of weight on the tongue. One could estimate that it may reduce the tongue weight by 80% of what that cargo item weighs. So again simple math that is 80# less tongue weight because it is so far back. Resulting in a net loss of 65# of tongue weight by putting 100# in the back of the trailer. Of course I am just using rough numbers for easy off the top of my head math but the logic is sound as long as the limits are not hit. I do agree it is a balancing act. Keep your light, bulky cargo up in that pass through storage area. Heavy stuff in the back and as long as you can keep an eye on that % TW keeping it 12-15% you should be fine. I don't like getting below 12% because if you can't dump your black tank, that is in the back of the trailer so pulls a lot of weight from the tongue along with the grey tank and might sneak you below the 10% bare mins.
I think you're over-thinking this. Set up a 'normal' load and get the whole setup on a CAT scale.
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Old 03-26-2017, 05:19 AM   #18
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To the OP- To simply answer your questions, you are correct, the Suburban looks like a definite no-go with that trailer, but the Nissan looks like it will be ok with a bit of room to spare.

I get that loading the new trailer and tow vehicle up with all your kids and gear to get it weighed isn't realistic since you haven't bought it yet, so if you're looking for a more definitive answer, just load up the Nissan and get it weighed- that will give you your actual weight and specifically the rear axle weight, then you can do the math and get a pretty firm number. I suspect you'll be close to the line but ok.


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Old 03-26-2017, 06:13 AM   #19
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There's a company in Oklahoma that can convert F250/F350 into Excursions. That could be an option as well. They can do it to any year model truck from 2005-2016.

I used to tow a 36' bumper pull with an 04 Excursion 4x4 with the 6.0 diesel. That was a big heavy trailer and I had no problems towing it. I did add RAS to the rear suspension but that was the only mod to the truck


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Old 03-26-2017, 06:57 AM   #20
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There's a company in Oklahoma that can convert F250/F350 into Excursions. That could be an option as well. They can do it to any year model truck from 2005-2016.

I used to tow a 36' bumper pull with an 04 Excursion 4x4 with the 6.0 diesel. That was a big heavy trailer and I had no problems towing it. I did add RAS to the rear suspension but that was the only mod to the truck


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He doesn't have an excursion. I don't know the Ford line but sometimes they build the trucks heavier. For instance my father in law's old GMC Sierra 2500 which I think was a 2012 was built on a 1 ton frame with 3/4 ton running gear. So in that case it could be upgraded pretty easily.

That isn't the case with suburbans, Yukon's ad Tahoes.

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