"For what I spent . . ." Thoughts on Quality

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by jetlag

That is their problem. Watch a youtube video on how Brinkley build them, down to no dirt on the floors, and jigs built to facilitate the employees access to the build item. Jayco and the rest can do 100% better if they just try. And Brinkley is introducing new models as we speak. It doesn't matter as they will all be built the same way. I sure wish I was getting paid by them lol

They all use jigs, only many pieces are built in a separate building then sent over for assembly. I think that is common among many of the manufacturers from what I remember, having done numerous tours.

Let's see what the video shows when they get to 10 or 20 thousand out the door each year.. Just sayin...

[F350guy]

Alliance Paradigm's were all the buzz a few years ago. Still may be as far as I know. I honestly don't know a lot about them but I read they were heavy into customer service. We have some friends that bought one a couple of years ago and they have had some issues with it to include a broken bedroom slide. It spent quite a bit of time at the dealer but they did get it fixed. I wonder how much customer service slips as a company grows.

[OnTheGo]

Originally Posted by F350guy

Alliance Paradigm's were all the buzz a few years ago. Still may be as far as I know. I honestly don't know a lot about them but I read they were heavy into customer service. We have some friends that bought one a couple of years ago and they have had some issues with it to include a broken bedroom slide. It spent quite a bit of time at the dealer but they did get it fixed. I wonder how much customer service slips as a company grows.

Family owned business' cared about you; corporations don't - any and all of them regardless of service or industry.

When I buy a TT I know it's equipped with components that were made available to the builder buy the lowest bid. It was put together by an unskilled workforce at a pace so fast quality is ignored. Once it's off the manufacturer's property they don't care about it. So now it goes to the dealer for repairs.

Warranty work has such a low margin the dealers don't want it. They have to pay skilled labor, give up bay space, and do the paperwork to get reimbursed.

Until there is a customer focused program (that is more than words) we will remain the big losers in the whole process.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by F350guy

It spent quite a bit of time at the dealer but they did get it fixed.

A very big part of the total equation.

[Camper_bob]

IMO, the frustrating thing is it's really not that hard to do better. The additional cost to do just a little better should be relatively minimal, while providing a proportionally better product. Spend one extra second lining up a couple screws properly, spend a couple extra pennies on longer screws to properly attach something, spend a little time evaluating warranty repairs so they can be solved on the production line instead of at a dealership. Put just a little more care into how things are built, and it will pay dividends in the long-term, and potentially save the company thousands per unit on warranty repair along with protecting their reputation as a quality builder.

But then, when most of the brands are consolidated under one corporation, it doesn't really matter if the consumer switches brands because all the money's going to the same place anyway. And demand has been so high the last few years, I don't think many of them care so long as they can squeeze more units out the door faster, shave a dollar everywhere they can, and deny or delay warranty claims as much as possible hoping the unit lasts ONLY 731 days.

[alan-bc]

Originally Posted by Jerry713

The workmanship in the RV industry is horrible.

I can't agree more.

I come from a boating background and have some experience with power and sail boats of all sizes and shapes. I've always paid a lot of attention to construction because a catastrophic failure in a boat doesn't leave you at the side of road waiting for AAA, it leaves you in DANGER.

Buying my first RV this summer, a Jayco class B, I naively expected similar sort of construction. My Jayco turned out to have numerous issues and I was NOT going to return it to my dealer for service; those clowns will never ever touch it again.

Being a very handy guy, I made the repairs myself and in so doing, got a GOOD look "under the covers".

Frankly, I was appalled! "How quickly and how cheaply can we build this?" surely seemed the criteria. Glue seemed to be a foreign concept; staples are how things were held together. And given the choice of wood, staples seemed to me to be a spectacularly poor choice. More distressing were the few areas where screws were used; those screws frequently missed the mark, going through the top piece and into .. nothing.

So I used the repair time to also reinforce the structure, adding obviously missing braces and applying glue to pieces previously simply stapled. (This was easier than it seemed .. it was amazing how many things had already started to separate. No problem getting a glue brush in between the two pieces, no need to pry many of them apart, they were already very nearly apart.)

I have to add though, that I asked Jayco for plumbing drawings and electrical to help me with my fixes. They supplied them quickly and I was very very impressed with what I received.

Whatever assembly concerns I may have, I have no engineering concerns. That side of things seems, to me, to be top notch.

[OnTheGo]

Originally Posted by alan-bc

... Whatever assembly concerns I may have, I have no engineering concerns. That side of things seems, to me, to be top notch.

That statement makes Camper bob's post (above) that much more appropiate. A little more attention to detail and we would all be satisfied.

If they have a good plan, and I agree with you that they do, all they need to do is follow it.

[Poppa404]

I always felt that Jayco was very high quality because I owned a 2007 Jay feather 29 RLS. I never had a reason to return it or get warranty work other than an inverter that died several years in.
In October we purchased a 2024 Jayco White Hawk. Things that I found out on our first three camping trips.
The solar power has no cut off and neither does the 12 volt refrigerator so when it reads an error you have to cover the solar panel to perform a hard reset. It took several phone calls and reading forums to figure that out because the Jayco tech couldn't.
The receiver for the mounting bracket for the outside griddle is too small. Still on order. A small table inside was damaged in shipping and is still on order. Ground wiring under the camper was loose causing outdoor lighting to fail. Crawling under the camper I found the gas line hanging down close to the ground because it needed one more clamp. The brake wiring on the rear axle was hanging close to the ground and had to be tied up. I decided to check the battery area and found the battery box full of water from rain because there are no drain holes in the bottom which I added. The battery was not fastened to the frame. So I fastened it. The awning drip rail was leaking and had to be recaulked. The front terminal for the battery hot wire was loose and had to be tightened. The wiring for the TV outlet was loose and had to be tightened. We had a water leak under the bathroom sink and the PEX fitting had to be tightened.
Most of those issues are small and could have been easily caught by quality control before the unit was shipped.
The biggest issue I've had is the tongue weight on the camper is 815 lb dry. Unfortunately I paid less attention to that than I did the overall weight of the camper which is around 6,800 lb. As it is advertised as a lightweight camper. About a thousand pounds less than my last camper. I was really happy to tow it with a half ton truck until I realized that just adding 30 gallon gas tanks to the front and a battery would bring it up close to 1,000 pounds. Looking at the camper from the outside you can see that they designed it with the rear axles very far back. I spent so much time researching which camper to buy to match my towing capacities only to be stuck with an issue that I now have to spend money on again. Anyways, just a little disappointed with Jayco. We will make up for it buy camping. If only we could find an open campsite lol

[Bugman]

Feb. of 2020, I had already researched here and everywhere which RV I wanted. Seeing Jayco's everywhere, I thought they were pretty good. I already had a 3-page "modifications and additions" sheet I found here, ready to perform before our first trip. I'm pretty handy and felt comfortable doing them. That should have told me everything I should have known. Went to the RV show in Jacksonville and took my wife,(who had never been in an RV) inside the chosen Jayco. She was unimpressed with how flimsy it felt. Then, upon advice from a friend, we walked into a Lance. She exclaimed, " This is the one, I can SEE and FEEL the difference in quality!" As usual, she was 100% right. The Lance was almost twice the cost up front, but already had all the equipment I was going to have to add to the Jayco, AND NO 3-pages of "modifications!" So we saved money in the long run. I knew this is the only RV we'll ever buy, so why not make it the best we can get. We haven't looked back once and enjoy our Lance often. Cost isn't always the deciding factor in the quality differences, but it was in our case. I spent more up front and got every dollar's worth. The only "problem"? we've had was a recall on the seals on the stove burners. Better yet, I know I could sell the Lance today for at least what I paid for it.

[bheisser]

Google airstream issues, there are a ton, the cost does not eliminate the issues, buy a trailer and expect to spend 10k and a year on issues

[Viajante]

What you say has a lot of merit. Unfortunately another of the folks being saddled with rigs of minimum quality are seniors like us, who've sunk a considerable amount in order to spend our twilight years enjoying our country. The reason more of us don't moan and groan is because companies like LaMesa continually purchase these unfit rigs and force them on unsuspecting folks. When our Red Hawk was supposedly ready their was a large Crack on main board around the dinette, one wall had sustained damage next to the range, there was damage to the outside of the rig and these were just the tip of the iceberg. We found the motorhome could not be in the rain during Christmas as California doesn't see much, but Brookings does. We had to Remove our bed and dinette in order to keep the walls from absorbing the rain. This went on for 3 days! The wall that had vertical design boards that flipped out when we used the slide out! The shower has 2 major wholes between the wall and the bottom floor! Called to get an appointment January 8th..nothing till late April!
We're exhausted attempting to remain positive, but when you're in your 70s time is an important commodity. Wish I could afford to just dump this on La Mesa's lot!

[Bugman]

Originally Posted by Viajante

What you say has a lot of merit. Unfortunately another of the folks being saddled with rigs of minimum quality are seniors like us, who've sunk a considerable amount in order to spend our twilight years enjoying our country. The reason more of us don't moan and groan is because companies like LaMesa continually purchase these unfit rigs and force them on unsuspecting folks. When our Red Hawk was supposedly ready their was a large Crack on main board around the dinette, one wall had sustained damage next to the range, there was damage to the outside of the rig and these were just the tip of the iceberg. We found the motorhome could not be in the rain during Christmas as California doesn't see much, but Brookings does. We had to Remove our bed and dinette in order to keep the walls from absorbing the rain. This went on for 3 days! The wall that had vertical design boards that flipped out when we used the slide out! The shower has 2 major wholes between the wall and the bottom floor! Called to get an appointment January 8th..nothing till late April!
We're exhausted attempting to remain positive, but when you're in your 70s time is an important commodity. Wish I could afford to just dump this on La Mesa's lot!

We had been tent campers for quite a while, but those middle-of-the-night bathroom trips getting up off of an air mattress got really tough because we were both 70. That's the reason we finally moved up to an RV.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by Poppa404

I always felt that Jayco was very high quality because I owned a 2007 Jay feather 29 RLS.

<<<snip>>>

I decided to check the battery area and found the battery box full of water from rain because there are no drain holes in the bottom which I added. The battery was not fastened to the frame. So I fastened it.

<<<snip>>>

The biggest issue I've had is the tongue weight on the camper is 815 lb dry. Unfortunately I paid less attention to that than I did the overall weight of the camper which is around 6,800 lb. As it is advertised as a lightweight camper. About a thousand pounds less than my last camper. I was really happy to tow it with a half ton truck until I realized that just adding 30 gallon gas tanks to the front and a battery would bring it up close to 1,000 pounds. Looking at the camper from the outside you can see that they designed it with the rear axles very far back. I spent so much time researching which camper to buy to match my towing capacities only to be stuck with an issue that I now have to spend money on again. Anyways, just a little disappointed with Jayco. We will make up for it buy camping. If only we could find an open campsite lol

Not saying things couldn't be better, because they could, but the dealer installs the battery it doesn't come from the factory. Also the hitch weight clearly states "dry" which means no propane or battery weight is included.

[Johnynorthland]

I think in these price ranges it’s a crap shoot! Owning 3 RV’s in these price ranges, that’s exactly what it was for me!

Keep your expectations low and hope for the best! It’s a shame to think you can spend this type of money and have low expectations, but it is what it is!

[dmccollum]

I have followed this forum and I thing Jayco did built a quality product. Thor industries is going to destroy that from what I am reading. 2017 seems to be the last year of real solid surface countertops and good floor coverings etc. I think the 2020 - 2022 models may have suffered as well due to supply chain issues and working conditions during covid. With that said, I still do not see the quality products. Everything looks cheaper built now. Making them lighter for better fuel economy. My old 1999 Fleetwood Bounder was a quality built motorhome. When I sold it in 2020 the only things that had been replaced or repaired was the refridgerator cooling unit and the awning fabrics. The power gear leveling jacks worked perfect never failed. The power gear slide out with sofa and dinette never failed or gave problems. Kept everything cleaned and lubricated. The emergency brake was slipping when I sold it. Now I think I should have kept it. It was a much better built unit than what I have now.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by dmccollum

I The power gear leveling jacks worked perfect never failed. The power gear slide out with sofa and dinette never failed or gave problems. Kept everything cleaned and lubricated. The emergency brake was slipping when I sold it. Now I think I should have kept it. It was a much better built unit than what I have now.

And Power Gear sold out to Lippert, which is a large part of the problem. No matter who builds the rig the components come from the same, limited suppliers.

[Crabman]

I've said for some time until they stop working by piece work build quality will be an issue. If you tell your crew " we've got ten units to build today then you can go home". Work an 8 hour shift, shut down the line and start again the next day I feel would get better results.Otherwise the process is rushed, just watch some of the RV build videos. All the RVs that are mass produced at these price points use similar appliances, systems and furniture and have similar build methods. The wildcard is the quality and attitude of the crew that builds your particular RV on a given day. Get away from piece work and they may do better. Food for thought.

[OnTheGo]

Originally Posted by Johnynorthland

I think in these price ranges it’s a crap shoot! Owning 3 RV’s in these price ranges, that’s exactly what it was for me!

Keep your expectations low and hope for the best! It’s a shame to think you can spend this type of money and have low expectations, but it is what it is!

Well said!

Those of us that are previous owners know the details of what's between-the-lines in that comment. A first time owner would be better off seeing Johnynorthland's post, and get help understanding it, before purchasing.

Sad to say that more likely they will get their information from the dealer's sales rep.

[uwharrie]

Exactly. Many want the status symbol, bells and whistles. They dont care about what they cannot see until it is too late.

Originally Posted by F350guy

This is just my opinion, of course, but quality doesn't sell nearly as well as glitz and glamour. Our 3 previous fifth wheels were Excels built in Smith Center, Ks. They made their own fully boxed frames and were insulated very well for cold weather use. They used high end tires and other components, as much as possible. The interiors were comfortable and well made but not glitzy. They were priced considerably more than the competitive brands that didn't have as good construction but had the wow factor when you walked in them. Price wise Excel couldn't compete and finally closed in 2015. NuWa was a similar company that closed a year or 2 earlier, well built units with lots of quality but priced higher than the competition. I'm sure there were other economic factors involved with the demise of the 2 companies but I would bet most folks would think why pay $25K more for something that doesn't look nearly as good as one of the Elkhart brands.

[pconroy]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

IMO, the frustrating thing is it's really not that hard to do better. \

I'm here too. Just slow down a smidge. You wanna pay by the piece work, pay for speed? Then defects are deducted from the team total.

Cap the output. Instead of letting the team go as fast as possible, set an upper limit. And if they finish early, then they're not done - they go on an hourly wage and do something else.

I'm just harping on this apparent "You're allowed to go as fast as possible" build process that seems to be happening.