"For what I spent . . ." Thoughts on Quality

[TaftCoach]

It's a regular comment. Someone spends $50,000, $100,000, or $150,000 and when they find less than premium components or shoddy workmanship they are understandably disappointed. I'm wondering how to fairly compare price to quality.

Thor Industries sells a 28' travel trailer for $117,000 under the Airstream name plate, a 36' Pinnacle 5th wheel for $112,000 and a 38' Jayco White Hawk for $62,000. All of these are a lot of money. (List prices for comparison)


Should the build quality, materials, and warranty all be the same? What's a reasonable expectation of quality if you are buying any of the three?

It should work? For the same amount of time? Without any trips back to the dealer?
It should hold up? For a retired couple? Family of 6? Thousands of miles per year or on a permanent site?

To achieve that list price what do you cut? Or do you build everything to the highest quality and if that stops half the market from buying accept that it avoids them being angry when things break.

[herewego]

Supply and demand How fast do you want it ? its a buy now society
Sure if you pay more you expect more.
and remember very few parts that go into a Camper are made by that company oddly
The best trouble free camper we bought was a Jayco G2 bunk house the nicest one was the Jayco Eagle 330RSTS never a Problem TaftCoach is correct you want what you pay for

[Grumpy]

What you say is true. However (ball park numbers) you have $520 per sq/ft for the Airstream vs $388 per sq/ft for the Pinnacle. I would certainly expect much better quality and detail in the Airstream.

[Campbell]

I find it interesting that a comment of —remember that very parts that go in to the camper are made by that company.— I believe it should be stated the company has a very poor selection process of suppliers that provide the product in question.
The buyer of the Rv doesn’t select the product the company does so don’t let the company off the hook to fixing or meeting the customer expectation.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by Campbell

I find it interesting that a comment of —remember that very parts that go in to the camper are made by that company.— I believe it should be stated the company has a very poor selection process of suppliers that provide the product in question.
The buyer of the Rv doesn’t select the product the company does so don’t let the company off the hook to fixing or meeting the customer expectation.

I think (at least historically) the problem is that there are FAR fewer suppliers of RV specific components, and that number seems to be getting smaller. At least on the scale a major RV manufacturer would need.

Think about absorption refers for example. How many suppliers are there for this component? Norcold is the only really major player in that market I know of. Probably the only one with enough capacity to feed production. Whereas there are dozens of major brands/styles/sizes for residential refers.

For several other components, it's been Lippert, Dometic, Attwood (and Attwood is now part of Dometic).

See, there just aren't a lot of options out there for components that can be produced to keep up with unit production.

So then it comes down to build quality of the "shell" IMO. I would expect an Airstream to be simply built better than a cheaper brand. It's still going to have the same components as every other RV, but I would expect the build quality of the box to be better.

And there's also specifications. Axles are a good example, as is furniture. Trailer axles have historically come from Dexter (owned by Lippert now?). But the RV manufacturer stipulates the specs for the axles it installs. Dexter delivers what is asked for, and RV manufacturer installs them. So the manufacturer orders the axles to JUST meet the GVWR (at best, I've heard grumbling that they spec only to meet 90%, counting on the tow vehicle carrying the rest) instead of specifying a heavier axle. John Q Public loads his trailer up full, or over-full, and the axles are being used 100% of the time at 100% of their engineered capacity. Plus how the RV manufacturer (or frame manufacturer) mounts them has an impact as well. We've seen plenty of images of suspension all bent all to h#!!. And furniture finishes flaking off because of materials that were specified that were not right.

[muckinfuss]

Having spent a good part of my 50y career in B2B I can attest to the following as fact: American business is and has been successful in spite of itself.

What Taft has posed is simply 'standardization' of dollar spent versus value received. Not ever going to happen. Every customer has a view of what equals value and when the price equals that....they buy. And they then deal with the surprises. It's the old marketing saw: the right product at the right place with the right promotion and the right price equals sales.

[Jerry713]

The workmanship in the RV industry is horrible. I remember after watching the first video I saw on how RV’s are built I wanted to throw some ratchet straps over and around my travel trailer just so it wouldn’t come apart going down the road. And that was before Covid when the workmanship went to bad to horrible. Unfortunately I don’t see that changing as long as people are willing to buy them.

[Kahoneys]

I hate to think that I am about to type this for I am a firm believer that government is in too much of our lives, BUT what would happen if government had the same requirements on the RV industry that they do on the auto industry? Would then build quality and warranty be better?

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by muckinfuss

Having spent a good part of my 50y career in B2B I can attest to the following as fact: American business is and has been successful in spite of itself.

What Taft has posed is simply 'standardization' of dollar spent versus value received. Not ever going to happen. Every customer has a view of what equals value and when the price equals that....they buy. And they then deal with the surprises. It's the old marketing saw: the right product at the right place with the right promotion and the right price equals sales.

And to add complexity to this already complex equation, a lot of the "value" in an RV (or virtually any other "toy") is emotional and extremely subjective. IMO, the real value of an RV is making memories with family. People have and will continue to put a very high dollar value on that part of the purchase. I think what manufacturers fail to realize is that their shoddy workmanship is eroding that significant part of the value equation. It's difficult to make fun memories with family (thus filling the marketing "promises") if your rig is constantly broken or in the dealership for repairs (failing the manufacturing "promises"). Especially when the cost delta to do it right the first time is SIGNIFICANTLY less than fixing it after the fact.

Add to that the fact that the RV industry is not really regulated in any meaningful way (like automobiles for example), and what reason, other than a decline in sales, would a manufacturer have to change? And it seems that a decline in sales would result in yet further degradation of quality as a manufacturer tries to get the unit to a price point a consumer would be willing to pay for their inferior product. All as we make another lap around the toilet bowl.

We could impose more regulation, but most people don't like that. It increases cost, lengthens timetables, introduces more complexity into the process... But it also can serve to protect consumers. Or we could all stop purchasing RVs?

[TaftCoach]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

What you say is true. However (ball park numbers) you have $520 per sq/ft for the Airstream vs $388 per sq/ft for the Pinnacle. I would certainly expect much better quality and detail in the Airstream.

I believe that's an important part of this. Also it seems that there is a minimum cost that all units start at. I haven't noticed, for example, a better mattress in larger units, the appliances may be bigger, but not always.

[herewego]

And What do you think the choices are ??
(( I believe it should be stated the company has a very poor selection process of suppliers that provide the product in question.))))

[F350guy]

This is just my opinion, of course, but quality doesn't sell nearly as well as glitz and glamour. Our 3 previous fifth wheels were Excels built in Smith Center, Ks. They made their own fully boxed frames and were insulated very well for cold weather use. They used high end tires and other components, as much as possible. The interiors were comfortable and well made but not glitzy. They were priced considerably more than the competitive brands that didn't have as good construction but had the wow factor when you walked in them. Price wise Excel couldn't compete and finally closed in 2015. NuWa was a similar company that closed a year or 2 earlier, well built units with lots of quality but priced higher than the competition. I'm sure there were other economic factors involved with the demise of the 2 companies but I would bet most folks would think why pay $25K more for something that doesn't look nearly as good as one of the Elkhart brands.

[dwaynebmsg]

If customers stop settling for shoddy construction, low quality furnishings, and lack of manufacturer support, perhaps the manufacturers will respond. As long as buyers act like they have no other choice, nothing will change. I remember back in the 70's and 80's the U.S. car manufacturers were really making junk. Customers began buying more and more imports until the domestics finally came around with better products. I know that if I had paid for a new rig and was having the problems that some folks on here report, I would be talking to one of the "billboard" lawyers.

[jetlag]

Originally Posted by F350guy

This is just my opinion, of course, but quality doesn't sell nearly as well as glitz and glamour. Our 3 previous fifth wheels were Excels built in Smith Center, Ks. They made their own fully boxed frames and were insulated very well for cold weather use. They used high end tires and other components, as much as possible. The interiors were comfortable and well made but not glitzy. They were priced considerably more than the competitive brands that didn't have as good construction but had the wow factor when you walked in them. Price wise Excel couldn't compete and finally closed in 2015. NuWa was a similar company that closed a year or 2 earlier, well built units with lots of quality but priced higher than the competition. I'm sure there were other economic factors involved with the demise of the 2 companies but I would bet most folks would think why pay $25K more for something that doesn't look nearly as good as one of the Elkhart brands.

The new kid on the block is Brinkley. Hoping they do very well and force the cheaper brands to do better

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by jetlag

The new kid on the block is Brinkley. Hoping they do very well and force the cheaper brands to do better

Until they get into high demand mode then what happens? That's usually when things change.

[LuckyDuck]

Originally Posted by F350guy

This is just my opinion, of course, but quality doesn't sell nearly as well as glitz and glamour. Our 3 previous fifth wheels were Excels built in Smith Center, Ks. They made their own fully boxed frames and were insulated very well for cold weather use. They used high end tires and other components, as much as possible. The interiors were comfortable and well made but not glitzy. They were priced considerably more than the competitive brands that didn't have as good construction but had the wow factor when you walked in them. Price wise Excel couldn't compete and finally closed in 2015. NuWa was a similar company that closed a year or 2 earlier, well built units with lots of quality but priced higher than the competition. I'm sure there were other economic factors involved with the demise of the 2 companies but I would bet most folks would think why pay $25K more for something that doesn't look nearly as good as one of the Elkhart brands.

You are right on the mark. Like most products and services, you get what you pay for. And the decision is this: Is it worth $25k more to buy a rig that likely will be trouble free? Or do I save that money and live with the inconvenience of having to do minor fixes — and HOPE that the bigger things like a dead converter, bad WH board or leaking roof show up in two years and are fixed under warranty? It’s a gamble as many of us have had good luck with our Jaycos and the gamble paid off. It was well worth doing the bed reinforcement or shelf bracing or additional caulking to pay less than what a boutique TT would have cost.

Sure, we could boycott and buy the alternative, hoping quality would improve. But unlike the “K-car era,” the alternatives aren’t comparably priced like the Toyotas and Datsuns were then. Now, if money were no object, the decision is easy…

[JFlightRisk]

Another company that couldn't compete was called Rainbow that made motorhomes. I believe they were in business from '84 to '86. I bought an '85 Spectra 27-foot model around '90 that was on a '84 Chevy P30 chassis. Had it for eight years, and it was well built, but the company couldn't buy components cheap enough like the big guys could. I don't know how many units they actually sold, but I only saw one other on the road while I had it.

[jetlag]

But here is the thing, our Friend's new Brinkley has no groundbreaking technology. We have most of the same equipment they have on theirs. The clincher is execution. The entire camper makes sense, how it is designed and built, down to the little pop out pet water and food bowls. Theirs has been flawless, no issues. You can see the quality inside. Simple things that make sense, how the doors are installed, so many little things. Our Pinnacle's furnace has never worked more than a day or two since new. That is after 3 replacement boards. The board sits flat on the floor of the compartment and water seems to get in. I will, and should have long ago, called Attwood about it. I have seen how Brinkley does their wiring, way better than the spaghetti mess of wires we have. Their dump valves for both grey/black tanks are electric, just push a button and done. What you say, what if you have no power? They have a compartment door you pop open, and guess what, they have the same manual valves we have, except theirs are for emergency purpose. I can go on and on. They don't have the floor plan my bride wants, bath and a half like our Pinnacle, but she is looking. We will see them in Tampa next week. And the company's support is outstanding. We emailed about the floor plan we wanted, and had an answer next day. I agree, as long as we are willing to pay for the current industry standard, that's what we will get

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by jetlag

But here is the thing, our Friend's new Brinkley has no groundbreaking technology. We have most of the same equipment they have on theirs. The clincher is execution. The entire camper makes sense, how it is designed and built, down to the little pop out pet water and food bowls. Theirs has been flawless, no issues. You can see the quality inside. Simple things that make sense, how the doors are installed, so many little things. Our Pinnacle's furnace has never worked more than a day or two since new. That is after 3 replacement boards. The board sits flat on the floor of the compartment and water seems to get in. I will, and should have long ago, called Attwood about it. I have seen how Brinkley does their wiring, way better than the spaghetti mess of wires we have. Their dump valves for both grey/black tanks are electric, just push a button and done. What you say, what if you have no power? They have a compartment door you pop open, and guess what, they have the same manual valves we have, except theirs are for emergency purpose. I can go on and on. They don't have the floor plan my bride wants, bath and a half like our Pinnacle, but she is looking. We will see them in Tampa next week. And the company's support is outstanding. We emailed about the floor plan we wanted, and had an answer next day. I agree, as long as we are willing to pay for the current industry standard, that's what we will get

All of that is easily accomplished when your production crew is only dealing with 6 or 8 floor plans. Don't get me wrong, Jayco can do better, but their production guys are probably switching floor plans daily and models weekly.

[jetlag]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

All of that is easily accomplished when your production crew is only dealing with 6 or 8 floor plans. Don't get me wrong, Jayco can do better, but their production guys are probably switching floor plans daily and models weekly.

That is their problem. Watch a youtube video on how Brinkley build them, down to no dirt on the floors, and jigs built to facilitate the employees access to the build item. Jayco and the rest can do 100% better if they just try. And Brinkley is introducing new models as we speak. It doesn't matter as they will all be built the same way. I sure wish I was getting paid by them lol