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Old 02-02-2013, 01:32 AM   #1
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Further discussion

1. Originally Posted by E&J push'n wind

snip.......My TV for example has GAWR's of 4300 lbs. rr and 3700 lbs. fr with a GVWR of 7300 lbs. My TV is overloaded way before the axles according to the MFG. Where did the other 700 lbs. go and why is it not useable, or is it? Am I unsafe if I go over the 7300 lbs. but stay within the 8K combined wt. of the axles without exceeding the rating of either?...... snip
I look at a TV axle as an individual component having it's own specified weight limit.., and don't believe the combined weight of both F/R axle weight limits takes into consideration other TV components included in the GVWR (ie; frame, drivetrain, brakes, etc.). Would you be "unsafe" if you went over your TV's 7,300lb GVWR, I guess it's possible...., but premature component wear could be a real issue.

You bring up some interesting points in your post that merit further discussion/detail, but I don't want to steer to far off the OP's subject matter.

Bob


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1. Originally Posted by TCNASHVILLE
Thanks again Bob for you are a wealth of knowledge. I guess the point I was trying to make is that even the best WDH can't compensate for overloading or lack of towing ability. I think a lot of people think if they can tow it, they're ok. A person with a 1/2 ton pickup may be able to tow 10,000#'s, but if the tongue weight exceeds the maximum of the vehicle, a dangerous situation presents itself and no WDH will make up for that unless special modifications are made to the suspension. Wouldn't it be nice if RV dealerships had CAT scales to ensure proper setup? They may not sell as many trailers though.

I understand the point of this statement however I disagree with it up to a point. A lot of times a MFG. will state a GVWR, GAWR fr/rr and GCWR for a certain year model. In subsequent years without changing ANYTHING to the vehicle except perhaps the grill, these "ratings" will increase and by a sizeable amount sometimes. So the guy who bought the older vehicle is overloaded and "dangerous" in the year he bought the vehicle because of his TT but as the "same vehicle" became newer with only a grill change he is no longer over loaded. In the same manner, this can change the other way. Toyota for example de-rated the tow rating of their 1/2 ton pick up and SUV. So what's the guy to do that has one of the older Toyota's. Is he now dangerous because the MFG. in later years reeled in what the vehicles are able to tow?

It is not always so cut and dry, I'm not advocating anybody overload their vehicle but many times a little discretion goes a long way. The question I supose is knowing what is and is not overloading your TV? My TV for example has GAWR's of 4300 lbs. rr and 3700 lbs. fr with a GVWR of 7300 lbs. My TV is overloaded way before the axles according to the MFG. Where did the other 700 lbs. go and why is it not useable, or is it? Am I unsafe if I go over the 7300 lbs. but stay within the 8K combined wt. of the axles without exceeding the rating of either? Is this the margin that MFG's use when they want to increase the tow rating of a vehicle without changing a single thing in drive line, suspension or braking?

I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers, currious as to what others have to say concerning this.



I hope this isn't to hard to follow, I copied and pasted it to MS word and then copied and pasted it here. We'll see, I hope it makes sense but I'd like to continue this line of thought and see where it goes.
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Old 02-02-2013, 11:57 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E&J push'n wind View Post
snip......I hope this isn't to hard to follow, I copied and pasted it to MS word and then copied and pasted it here. We'll see, I hope it makes sense but I'd like to continue this line of thought and see where it goes.
E&J,

The JOF link below may provide readers with a little background into the "Further Discussion" subject for your thread.

https://www.jaycoowners.com/showthrea...-weights/page2

Bob
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:41 AM   #3
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E&J, I wish I knew how truck manufacturers can increase their tow ratings year after year without changing anything. Maybe they're adding E rated tires, larger brakes etc. I don't know. My original point was not necessarily about actually towing, but overloading tongue weight. A John Deere lawn tractor can pull a battleship if it was up on wheels. The "dangerous" situation I was referring to was steering will be severely compromised when too much squat is on the rear. All of us will face some sort of situation in our towing lifetimes and having the proper TV, WDH etc could allow a bit more control when needed. I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't want to tow on that "edge" of maxing out my TV's outer limits. Terry
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Old 02-04-2013, 11:12 AM   #4
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Ratio between GCAWR and GVWR

Hi Push'n wind,

It's funny how TV manufactures are so inconsistent on GVWR's. I have a 2012 Ram 1500 Laramie fully loaded, it has GAWR of 3900 lbs. (F&R) for a GCAWR of 7800 lbs., this is 200 lbs. less than your GCAWR. I don't understand with only 200 lbs. difference between our GCAWR's, there is a 500 lb. difference in our GVWR's. Your manufacturer allows you to carry a payload of 91% of your GCAWR and Dodge only allows me to carry a payload of 87% of GCAWR. it just doesn't make any sense, maybe if Bob sees this he can start a survey to see what the ratio between GCAWR and GVWR is for the TV's....that would give some interesting details and enlighten us on the safety margins that the OEMs use. Lets see who's ratios are safer than others?





Quote:
Originally Posted by E&J push'n wind View Post
1. Originally Posted by E&J push'n wind

snip.......My TV for example has GAWR's of 4300 lbs. rr and 3700 lbs. fr with a GVWR of 7300 lbs. My TV is overloaded way before the axles according to the MFG. Where did the other 700 lbs. go and why is it not useable, or is it? Am I unsafe if I go over the 7300 lbs. but stay within the 8K combined wt. of the axles without exceeding the rating of either?...... snip
I look at a TV axle as an individual component having it's own specified weight limit.., and don't believe the combined weight of both F/R axle weight limits takes into consideration other TV components included in the GVWR (ie; frame, drivetrain, brakes, etc.). Would you be "unsafe" if you went over your TV's 7,300lb GVWR, I guess it's possible...., but premature component wear could be a real issue.

You bring up some interesting points in your post that merit further discussion/detail, but I don't want to steer to far off the OP's subject matter.

Bob


That is in response to this



1. Originally Posted by TCNASHVILLE
Thanks again Bob for you are a wealth of knowledge. I guess the point I was trying to make is that even the best WDH can't compensate for overloading or lack of towing ability. I think a lot of people think if they can tow it, they're ok. A person with a 1/2 ton pickup may be able to tow 10,000#'s, but if the tongue weight exceeds the maximum of the vehicle, a dangerous situation presents itself and no WDH will make up for that unless special modifications are made to the suspension. Wouldn't it be nice if RV dealerships had CAT scales to ensure proper setup? They may not sell as many trailers though.

I understand the point of this statement however I disagree with it up to a point. A lot of times a MFG. will state a GVWR, GAWR fr/rr and GCWR for a certain year model. In subsequent years without changing ANYTHING to the vehicle except perhaps the grill, these "ratings" will increase and by a sizeable amount sometimes. So the guy who bought the older vehicle is overloaded and "dangerous" in the year he bought the vehicle because of his TT but as the "same vehicle" became newer with only a grill change he is no longer over loaded. In the same manner, this can change the other way. Toyota for example de-rated the tow rating of their 1/2 ton pick up and SUV. So what's the guy to do that has one of the older Toyota's. Is he now dangerous because the MFG. in later years reeled in what the vehicles are able to tow?

It is not always so cut and dry, I'm not advocating anybody overload their vehicle but many times a little discretion goes a long way. The question I supose is knowing what is and is not overloading your TV? My TV for example has GAWR's of 4300 lbs. rr and 3700 lbs. fr with a GVWR of 7300 lbs. My TV is overloaded way before the axles according to the MFG. Where did the other 700 lbs. go and why is it not useable, or is it? Am I unsafe if I go over the 7300 lbs. but stay within the 8K combined wt. of the axles without exceeding the rating of either? Is this the margin that MFG's use when they want to increase the tow rating of a vehicle without changing a single thing in drive line, suspension or braking?

I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers, currious as to what others have to say concerning this.



I hope this isn't to hard to follow, I copied and pasted it to MS word and then copied and pasted it here. We'll see, I hope it makes sense but I'd like to continue this line of thought and see where it goes.
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Old 02-04-2013, 08:32 PM   #5
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Hi Push'n wind,

Snip...
that would give some interesting details and enlighten us on the safety margins that the OEMs use. Lets see who's ratios are safer than others?
Interestingly enough, up to a point I'm not sure that it's a matter of safety as much perhaps as duty cycle. I really see no reason that all of the combined GAWR could not be used except that it might shorten the duty cycle of a vehicle. Since MFG's really have no control over how their equipment might be used as far as driving habbits I think these numbers are an average of worse case scenario and grandma driving. I have no idea for sure so that is what they call a WAG (wild adventurous guess). It would really be nice to see how they arrive at their numbers.

Now I doubt this applies to 1/2 ton vehicles but perhaps it does. I understand in some states, you can purchase a tag that allows you to increase the GVWR of any said vehicle as long as you are willing to foot the bill for the tag. You are not allowed however to exceed the GAWR's of said vehicle. So, that "safety" margin becomes somewhat arbitrary based on the amount of GVWR you purchase. With that in mind, is one who has "exceeded" his MFG's GVWR but not exceeded his GAWR's really "unsafe?" If the combination of vehicles (TV & TT) is setup and loaded properly but exceeding the MFG's GVWR but not the combined GAWR, how unsafe is he or is he in fact unsafe?

I contend that he is not unsafe, again with vehicle properly setup and loaded. I've heard the arguement that, "you have to be able to stop that setup" but I think that tends to be a fallacious argument. Whenever you have more weight, it's gonna take more distance to stop, that's a given. Case in point, If you take a 1/2 ton P/U and a 1 ton P/U any brand of same make for sake of arguement and attach an equallly weighted and equiped trailer to both (not exceeding the 1/2 tons limitations) and stopped both trucks from 60 mph. Which one would stop in less distance? Now, I don't have actual numbers on this but just the physical weight of the 1 ton truck says to me that the 1/2 ton should stop in less distance meerly because it weighs less. Now, I could be wrong and that's okay but I'd be surprised if a 1 ton truck could stop in less distance than a 1/2 ton truck from the same speed.

I'd be really interested in what others think, your opinions please?
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E&J push'n wind View Post
snip...... With that in mind, is one who has "exceeded" his MFG's GVWR but not exceeded his GAWR's really "unsafe?" If the combination of vehicles (TV & TT) is setup and loaded properly but exceeding the MFG's GVWR but not the combined GAWR, how unsafe is he or is he in fact unsafe?.......snip
Like many folks I've been around many campfires discussing the weight delta's found between GVWR's & GAWR's, GVWR weight tagging, etc..., but in the end I tend to let the automotive manufactures set the GVWR's, not others......, that's just me.

Don't know how one could put a quantitative measure on any safety implications.., but IMO there remains a liability cloud when one exceeds the manufactures specified GVWR, tagged or otherwise.

https://www.jaycoowners.com/showthrea...ght=negligence

Just thinking out loud here.......

Bob
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