Highway etiquette - just wondering

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by Explorer03

You will find many (and I mean many) such areas of poor design though out the state of Texas when it comes to the design of entrance/exit of major highways.

The Texas DOT much hire third graders for the design department for road layout

I see you're from San Antonio, so you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about...

Yes, LOTS of poor design all over the place.

[bleckb]

That sort of design is something that is relatively new, with a name of some state attached to the letter 'J'. It is intended to cut down on accident. While it doesn't give those of us with trailers much time to get up to speed, like roundabouts, they've been shown to reduce accidents and deaths. This does look a little different than what we have just added to a highway in Spokane, but my guess is that the engineers have vetted this, whether we like it or not. I've worked with traffic engineers on infrastructure issues, mostly related to bicycles, and the one thing those guys are not is radical and unthinking. They are generally wedded to the way it's always been done.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by bleckb

That sort of design is something that is relatively new, with a name of some state attached to the letter 'J'. It is intended to cut down on accident. While it doesn't give those of us with trailers much time to get up to speed, like roundabouts, they've been shown to reduce accidents and deaths. This does look a little different than what we have just added to a highway in Spokane, but my guess is that the engineers have vetted this, whether we like it or not. I've worked with traffic engineers on infrastructure issues, mostly related to bicycles, and the one thing those guys are not is radical and unthinking. They are generally wedded to the way it's always been done.

I don't see how it's possible that the entrance ramps we have here (like the ones pictured) have been shown to REDUCE danger. How is it SAFER to dump SLOWER traffic into much faster traffic in a VERY small space?

Now, I'm no engineer, but I DO have eyeballs, and yes, they even work most of the time. And I drive these roads with these entrance ramps every day. From my experience, these kinds of ramps are EXCEEDINGLY unsafe and very poorly designed. Especially given that the law stipulates that the entering traffic bears ALL responsibility for yielding to existing traffic on the main roadway (in this case, the Interstate).

Also, MANY of the collisions I've seen in this area have been at those very locations, or very close to them. Example: Truck entering the roadway is only able to attain 30 mph by the time the ramp dumps onto the freeway. At the time, there is a break in traffic and the truck enters the right lane of the Interstate at 30 mph and is accelerating as hard as physically possible. By the time the next car comes along in the right lane, the truck has only been able to attain 50 mph, and the posted speed is 75 (you can see it doesn't take much time for the highway traffic to close that gap). That driver either isn't paying attention or is enraged that they are then FORCED to yield to the truck, and hits the rear of the truck. OR they rapidly swerve into the left lane to avoid the slow-moving traffic. OR they slam on their brakes to avoid hitting the rear of the slower-moving vehicle. Happens just like that ALL THE TIME in these areas.

AND the drivers on the Interstate are laying ALL the blame on the traffic trying to enter the freeway saying things like "it's YOUR job to yield to ME, and I'll not make any concession to allow you into traffic, because the LAW says I don't have to."

It's a crappy way to be, and it's a CREATED problem by design. With a longer entrance ramp, and a temporary merge lane, the problem is virtually eliminated. This would allow traffic entering the freeway to adjust speed and move into traffic smoothly and efficiently. Even if those in the right lane do nothing, it's safer and more efficient for traffic entering the main roadway. AND if the existing traffic decides to "be considerate" and do something to help the traffic entering the freeway, they have more time and space to execute that maneuver.

Further, the reality is that those drivers on the Interstate will actively make efforts to thwart merging traffic. Maybe it's because they don't want to get "stuck" behind a slower vehicle. Or perhaps it's because they figure it's not their responsibility to make a concession to drivers entering the roadway. Maybe they really are just complete jerks. I dunno, but if people were more considerate on the roadways, it would go a long way to solving this problem. And before anyone says "no way people are that rude to actively prevent you from entering the freeway", I've experienced exactly this myself many times. One night going home from work, I was accelerating HARD to get up to highway speed on a ramp (and my car wasn't "slow"), I looked over and observed a vehicle in the right lane, and determined that at our current rates of speed and acceleration, I would easily be able to merge onto the freeway in front of him. Then I saw him look directly at me, and then immediately aggressively accelerate. His intent was clear; I was NOT going to merge onto the freeway in front of him. It wasn't a big deal in that case, because I just backed off the throttle and slid in behind him (then he immediately slowed down, proving his intent), but it's not always that clean. And yes, that exact same thing has happened to me several times over the years.

Yeah, no way entrance ramps like that are safer...

[Explorer03]

Camper Bob,
Yes. I have also lived in Lubbock and Wichita Falls. Many miles driven all over this overly large state.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by Explorer03

Camper Bob,
Yes. I have also lived in Lubbock and Wichita Falls. Many miles driven all over this overly large state.

I've lived in Houston, College Station, Austin and now outside San Antonio. During my life, I've traveled the state extensively; I don't know why, but I never really noticed these ramps until I moved to the Central TX area...

[DocBrown]

How does a short ramp with cars getting on at 35 mph into traffic that's often doing 70 reduce accidents? I'd like to see those studies. That said everywhere I've seen this was the result of several factors. Often very outdated designs that can only be changed with a major, expensive rework. A lot of them I've seen are also the result of outdated design but due to lack of real estate to make them better they remain short, like the I-10 map Bob posted.

There are a couple of old on ramps in the Milwaukee area that have short runs. They've been repaved but have not been part of a major overhaul yet. One of these actually has off ramp traffic criss-crossing the on ramp traffic under a bridge. I used to have to get off that ramp where I used to work. Talk about scary. We also have a couple of left side off and left side on ramps. Keep in mind that the freeways here were designed in the '50s and no one in this area back then ever conceived of the idea of heavy traffic.

I've seen ramps in metro LA where you get on the freeway in a residential neighborhood, turn right onto the ramp, and wait, there is no ramp! You are on the freeway!

I disagree with the engineers being stuck with the status quo. Maybe in WA. I've talked to WI DOT engineers a number of times over the years. They are very innovative. More often than not budgets limit what they can and can't do. Most of the interchanges here have been redesigned and rebuilt in the past 20 years and it's far better with the improvements they've made, especially given the limits they've had to work from.

[Camper_bob]

Chuck, I think you're right on point. Most of the areas I've seen these ramps have historically been "rural" areas. As they've grown up, the infrastructure has not. So while a short ramp like that may have been fine in light traffic, it's no good now with heavier traffic and increased load.

I also agree that it's likely the primary reason these haven't been "fixed" is because of money. There simply isn't enough money allocated to infrastructure improvement. And for some reason, it's hard to get people to understand why we need to spend money on stuff like that.

In the meantime, we must use this infrastructure in its current state, so that leaves it up to the drivers to use some common sense and have some consideration for other drivers out there on the road. That's why I tend to take issue with people on the main lanes not slowing down, speeding up, or moving over, if they can safely do so, when traffic is entering the freeway. Just because the law says you have the right of way, doesn't mean you shouldn't make reasonable efforts to allow others into the flow of traffic.

Another thing I noticed is that a few years ago, TXDOT removed all the "Yield" signs in these areas....

[Murff]

When the Interstate Highway System was first engineered, there were fewer design regulations. As such, many local cities dictated where off and on ramps were placed going into their cities. I-5 in Seattle is a shining example of how freeways should not be designed or built. Left lane on-ramps from major east-west freeways and a right hand exit a mile away that leads to the Seattle Center. This maneuver was even given a name, "The Roanoke - Mercer Weave"! The maneuver is the same in the opposite direction, left lane on, right lane off within a mile.

Early designs didn't require that ingress and egress had to be on the right. Not sure what year the regulations changed, but there are very few freeways that would be designed today with left lane off and on ramps as this is no longer permitted.

Funny how in Washington State, if there isn't enough room for a long on-ramp, the state DOT just slaps up a "Yield" sign.

Murff