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Old 05-25-2015, 09:19 AM   #1
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It shouldn't be so hard to figure out

We've been trying to figure out just what RV we're going to get. We've looked at Class As, 5th wheels and Class Cs. We initially tossed out Class Cs until I started looking at the Super Cs which I now lump in with the Class As.

My DW likes the 5th wheels for two reasons.
  • You get more bang for your buck.
  • You can use the truck when not needing it to pull the 5er.
My issue with the 5th wheels are.
  • You can't get into many of the National parks due to the total over all combined length especially when trying to back into tight campground spots.
  • The truck needed to put the ones we like are way to big to be comfortable for daily driving.
  • You end up with a truck that's a lot bigger than one would normally need for daily use.
  • If your TV breaks down you're stuck until you can get help.
My DWs dislike for Class A DPs is the flat nose giving much less protection, which is somewhat my reason as well, and the whole thing does nothing when not traveling.

That brings us to the Super Cs. When I think Super C I'm only looking at a Diesel rig that's built on at least a Freightliner Business Class M2 chassis which leaves out the ones built on Ford F550 chassis.

So the pros and cons for a Super C are.

Pros
  • Easier to drive.
  • Tight 55 degree wheel just making it much easier to maneuver into tight spaces compared to a 5th wheel and a F450 or 3500.
  • I think the milage will be equal or better than a truck plus 5er and better than a typical DP.
  • If the Super C breaks down you still have the Toad to go get help.
  • Just about any truck stop can work on the drive train.
Cons
  • All in one so you cannot use the truck for daily use. (Big deal for the DW)
  • It has a little less space than a typical Class A of the same length.
So basically we're looking at a Pinnacle with a Ford F450 or Ram 3500 or a Seneca if we're talking Jayco. When it's all said and done the pricing between the two is close to the same plus or minus a few grand.

So right now we're basically checking out the Super C to see which one are in the running and then we'll make the Super C verses 5th wheel decision.

The two on the top of the list is the Jayco Seneca and the Dynamax Force. Both have basically the same floorpans with minor differences in furniture. They are so close that if you took off all of the brand markings it would be hard to tell them apart. The only huge downside to the Seneca that would move me to the Force is that you can't get it with a Residential Refrigerator and for us that's a BIG deal.

However the two year warrantee is a big plus for the Seneca. One thing I don't know is what the Freightliner chassis, Cummins and Allison warrantee are.

So we are debating the pros and cons trying to figure out which way to go. It should not be this hard.
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:56 AM   #2
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WThe only huge downside to the Seneca that would move me to the Force is that you can't get it with a Residential Refrigerator and for us that's a BIG deal.
First you never know what JAYCO is going to offer in 2016 in the SENECA, at least I haven't seen thing on the 16's. The residential may be an option.

I think you need to look at how much time you will be in the unit. When we bought our SENECA in 08 it was being used for 3-4 week trips since DW was still teaching. Well after she retired those 3-4 week trips turned into 3-4 month trips. We were getting along fine in the Super "C" and actually started looking at a 2015. Long story short, after seeing the FLSA PINNACLE it was a very easy decision for us. Back to a FW, we had 2 in the 90's.

Just my 2 cents.....
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Old 05-25-2015, 10:12 AM   #3
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My 2 cents for what its worth doesn't count for anything It will all boil down to what your DW wants
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:03 AM   #4
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My 2 cents for what its worth doesn't count for anything It will all boil down to what your DW wants
Yep. Best to make sure she likes it.
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:20 AM   #5
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I have the 2016 changes sheet and there was nothing about an RR. You can see the first page below but you'll have to download to see all of it.

The basic floor plans haven't really changed but note they tossed in a 4K HDTV and Blu-Ray player and several other nice additions including bigger windows.

The floor plans is a little confusing since they used two different notations so here is the translation.

36FK=36HH
37FS=37HF
37HJ=37HJ
37RB=37HG
37HB=37TS
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Old 05-27-2015, 07:42 AM   #6
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I can add a couple more "pros" for the Seneca (or any motorhome) compared to a 5th wheel, especially if you ever travel with grandkids or senior citizens (I do both). The young ones can be belted in at the dinette and play or watch TV going down the road. When they need to use the "facilities", they are just feet away. That same logic regarding the bathroom applies equally to the older generation, of course except for the driver! Snacks and cold drinks are also easily accessible making a long day's drive a little more pleasant. A bit harder to manage these tasks when you are towing your "home away from home".

My 2014 Seneca came only with a large propane/electric refrigerator with icemaker, but I have never been able to fill it up yet! I did not want a RR since we dry camp regularly and are happy we don't have to run the genny every day for hours to recharge the battery bank or to take over for the refrigerator. I do have an 1,800 watt inverter for the TV and microwave when I do need to run those conveniences when off the "grid" and don't want to fire up the Onan.

I certainly agree you get more for your money living-space wise with a 5'r, and if I had a need for a diesel dually other than for recreation that is probably what I would have. But we love our Seneca (and loved the 2 Class C's before this one) and for us it was the best direction. Each to their own!
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Old 05-27-2015, 07:51 AM   #7
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SWMBO & I were looking at 20 foot TT's.


I bought a 23 footer. Based on floor-plan and amenities.


First, you two have to settle on whether your about-the-town vehicle will be the Tow or a dinghy.


Our tow is small enough to fill that role. An F450 gets tough to park at the C-Mart.
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Old 05-27-2015, 07:38 PM   #8
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Timon,

Owning a new Seneca, I thought I would offer my 2 cents. We have never owned a FW, but have owned 9 MH's. Everything from Class B+ to a diesel pusher A.

Re: FW, to me it comes down to how much time you are on the road vs parked. Since we do a lot of driving (put 44K on our last MH in 4 years) I have never considered a FW. You see a lot of them on the road, but I personally would not want to be pulling a large FW with a pickup, even if it's a dually. In fact, at our last rest stop a guy came over to me and asked how the Seneca handled. He said they had bought their first RV and it was a FW. He said he wasn't real comfortable pulling it had wished they and looked at something like the Seneca. I certainly don't mean to offend anyone, it's just a personal thing. I just wouldn't be comfortable pulling a large FW. Plus for us, we really like the convenience of motorhomes since we do a lot of driving.

Re: an A vs Super C, that was my dilemma this time around. Having previously had a Dynamax on the M2 chassis, as well as a diesel pusher, for me the decision came down to space vs safety. In the end I chose the Seneca for safety reasons. Since the cab is made to automotive specs, I believe the truck cab and chassis offer more protection in the event of an accident. I also feel that the M2 chassis handles appreciably better than most A's do. In fact at a campground our neighbor had a 32ft gas A (their first RV) and was explaining to me how it seemed like he really had to fight it to keep it going straight. Now some of that is due to the short wheel base, but I know from experience that the M2 chassis handles much better that our freightliner 38' DP did. I personally think the Super C's are the sweet spot for roominess vs drivability... And, I think Jayco further hits the sweet spot for price in that field.

As a side note, we passed a class A that had crashed on the side of I-69 in Indiana on May 25th. It had happened much earlier, but as we went by they had several slide-outs, the roof, walls, couches, and all sorts of belongings loaded onto two flat beds. All that was left of the A was the floor and chassis. From the looks of it whoever was in it was killed. There was nothing left above the floor-line. In a crash like that I doubt the cab of a M2 would have survived either...

As someone else said, our TS model has a very large fridge. I wouldn't want anything larger.
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:22 PM   #9
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Just as a follow-on... What made my final decision of Super C vs Class A was safety... And as I noted in my earlier post, we witnessed a class A that was obliterated from the floor up on this last Memorial day...

A front diesel might be only marginally better, but I'll take any margin I can get... At least you have something in front to absorb an impact and a steel cage around you... Plus a chassis that handles really good.

Here's an excerpt from an article re: MH safety...

- - - - -
KIRO Team 7 Investigators used a computer to analyze two federal databases filled with more than 5,000 RV accident, safety and mechanical deficiency reports. Summaries like:

"VEHICLE WAS COMING AROUND A CURVE AND THE BRAKES FAILED"

"2 DEAD -- HIT TREE AT A SLOW RATE OF SPEED, 34 MPH. THE OCCUPANT COMPARTMENT DISINTEGRATED"

and

"RV DISINTEGRATED AND ONLY THE CHASSIS REMAINED"
made the Class A motor home stand out -- and not in a good way.
Class A's are defined by their flat-nose front, open seating and tremendous length.

JD Gallant has been called the Ralph Nader of motor homes. He has investigated countless fatal RV crashes and authors a top-selling RV consumer buying guide. He has strong opinions regarding the safety of the Class A.

“You need to realize that when you drive a Class A motor home, in case of an accident, you've increased greatly your risk of death, the driver and the passenger,” said Gallant.

He says the government should start mandating front-end crash tests and stronger rollover protections if we want people to stop dying in these massive machines.

"We know from accidents, Chris, what's happening. The industry isn't into studying Class A accidents. They just aren't into it. If they did, if RVIA (Recreation Vehicle Industry Association) would study Class A accidents, every Class A accident, put them up on the wall and study these Class A accidents, and say 'oh we've got to make improvement here.' They could do it. And they'd reduce the deaths by 80 to 90 percent,” said Gallant.
- - - - -

ref article: RV Crash Deaths Under Investigation | www.kirotv.com
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Old 05-28-2015, 03:06 PM   #10
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When momma's happy EVERYONE is happy...
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Old 05-28-2015, 04:00 PM   #11
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My issue with the 5th wheels are.•You can't get into many of the National parks due to the total over all combined length especially when trying to back into tight campground spots.
1.) I don't camp at national parks... Yet so I cannot comment on this topic.

•The truck needed to put the ones we like are way to big to be comfortable for daily driving.
2.) I've towed mine with a F-350 SRW and a DRW and I drive them as a daily driver. Very comfortable to drive always. They have a better ride than my Ford Taurus SHO and I love that car. I can even get the DRW into a regular parking stall and most drive thru areas.

•You end up with a truck that's a lot bigger than one would normally need for daily use.
3.) Mileage as a daily driver I average 14.5 - 18.9 MPG Mixed driving. Considering my Taurus only gets 22 MPG I'll take it. The truck weighs way more than the car. Plus the car has nothing vs. the truck in an accident.
•If your TV breaks down you're stuck until you can get help.
4.)If your Motor Home breaks down you might need a specialist repair shop, with the truck you may only need a dealership. Towing is also a big difference.
Just my $0.02.
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Old 05-29-2015, 10:43 AM   #12
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If you have a Super C MH that uses a Freightliner M2 or a full Semi chassis such as a Volvo then you can pull into any good diesel shop and they'll most likely work on it since to them it is a truck they work on all the time. This is why we're only looking at Super C or 5th wheel now, no class A DPs. If it doesn't come with a true Truck cab with all of the safety features and crash test we don't want it.

Here are the contenders for a Super C MH. They all use the Freightliner M2 chassis and are all under $250K or so real world pricing with the Seneca and Force being under $200K, Force HD at about $225K. Only the Seneca doesn't come with an RR or ISL 9L Cummins option. All the rest do or it's standard.

The Seneca:


The Dynamax Force, Force HD or DX3:

I really like the top mount awnings on the DX3.


The Renegade Verona:


The Verona and DX3 are higher end but come with the Cummins 9L engine. The Force HD is the same as the Force but comes with the Cummins 9L engine.
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Old 05-29-2015, 11:49 AM   #13
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When momma's happy EVERYONE is happy...
Ditto !
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Old 05-29-2015, 12:27 PM   #14
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another "con"

We have a fifth wheel. I really like having the ability to drop the rv and see sights, get supplies and be able to run someone to a doc or vet easily, if needed. Think about those youngsters you mentioned and having to break camp to haul an injured and screaming child to a doc.
I've gotten to where if we're two nights or more at a site I drop the rv. When home, the f350 mostly sits, but we have another car.
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Old 05-29-2015, 12:55 PM   #15
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Color me intrigued.


An MH on an over-the-road-truck chassis & cab. Meets or exceeds all federal safety standards for the driver and front passenger. If there is an automotive (minivan) style bench seat secured just aft of the driver and passenger, you've got safe seating for 5!


More than enough power to tow a car trailer with a sedan, minivan or crossover for local running around.


And you win on getting service for the truck because the underpinnings are the same as hundreds (thousands?) already on the road.


Is Momma going to do some of the driving? I would expect a big MH pulling a small car would be much easier than nearly equal weight pickup and 5th wheel trailer.
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Old 05-29-2015, 01:32 PM   #16
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I'd like mama to do some driving although I think it would be mainly on the open road so she doesn't have to maneuver around town.

If we go this way then we would tow our Dodge Journey using a dolly since it won't flat tow.

If we get a Ram 3500 to tow a 5er we really need to remove the rear seats to give our two big dogs enough room to ride comfortable so no room to take the grandkids anywhere.

With the MH we have room for grandkids and the dogs during travel and with the journey we can take them and even the dogs. All around it just seems a better way to do but the DW has to come to the same conclusion and be happy with it.
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Old 05-29-2015, 01:37 PM   #17
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Using my own unscientific observations I would say most people utilizing Super C units (and most larger motorhomes regardless of "class") do have a toad, so sightseeing, shopping, doctor visits, etc. are accomplished without breaking camp. I can disconnect my car in mere minutes and have it roadworthy. Even in my pre-Super C days I always towed a car behind my previous Class C Ford-based motorhomes. And my wife is comfortable driving our rig, even towing the car. Both of the cars I can tow are otherwise "daily drivers" when at the stick home.

As far as passengers I have 11 seating positions with seatbelts in my Seneca 37TS; all secured to steel members designed by Jayco for that purpose. I've never hauled that many people, but I have that option for tailgating, or possibly the occasion some of my passengers will stay somewhere else at the destination. Not possible in a 5'r or other camper unless folks are riding in the trailer or you are towing with a heavy-duty window van. And in case someone wonders, I do have the legal weight capacity to have that many passengers, loaded the way I have it with full fuel, propane, and water tank. I am thousands of pounds under my GVWR and GCWR limits with just wife and me.

I am not "knocking" other means to accomplish enjoyment of a traveling and camping lifestyle, I have set up often right next door to people driving a subcompact car and staying in a tent. And they were very happy to do so, just as I am very happy to have "worked my way up" to what I have now. It is all about deciding what you want and what you can afford, but the important take-away is to be safe and enjoy yourself.
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