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Old 04-14-2024, 08:27 AM   #1
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Lippert Threatens Lawsuit

I found this kind of interesting. It will involve watching a couple of videos but basically this YouTube influencer, Liz Amazing posted a video or two with customer feedback regarding Lippert and frame flex that didnít paint a good picture for Lippert so they are threatening her with a lawsuit. She also talks about how Tippen (a Thor owned company) tried to blackmail her to keep her from posting a video of a bad customer experience.

Interesting!

https://youtu.be/0vrRjTbf9zU?feature=shared
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Old 04-14-2024, 09:13 AM   #2
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Lippert best be careful here. Even if they win the publicity will be long and loud.
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Old 04-14-2024, 10:13 AM   #3
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My comment here is not about any particular company or in defense of one over the other.

I have seen (many of us have) over the years issues with sidewall cracks and almost always the frame is targeted as the issue. While there is some truth in that, the entire truth is that almost all metals used for car, truck, RV's, buildings, etc., use steel or aluminum that flex's. It is often unnoticed but tall buildings, bridges, trucks, cars, trailers are flexing all of the time. In the attached image you will see that even large 18 wheeler flat bed trailers are crowned as the design is of such that the load on it will flex the trailer more level and the crown adds strength.

Just like a Pickup truck, if the bed was rigidly attached to the cab, it is likely that there would be cracks where the two join. Most pickups have a gap there as well as rubber mounts for the cab forward and the bed sections that allow for the frame to flex without damaging the truck. This is also true for buildings where the window frames are designed to accommodate flex of the building. If you take for example the image I shared and place a sheet of fiberglass and rigidly attach it to the sides of the trailer and then add a load on the trailer then the flex of the trailer will either no longer occur as the glass will keep the trailer rigid, or the glass will break. If RV's that have cracking and the frame is still intact, then I suspect the design of the RV itself is likely to be at fault. Had the RV been placed on the trailer frame with large rubber bushings then the frame could flex and not crack the sidewalls, or even if expansion areas were built in as will like with a pickup truck then that could help. Also, many sidewalls for trailers that are aluminum never have this issue as the sidewalls can absorb the flex.

Point being, I believe many people think that the metal RV frames should never flex which is not correct, they do flex and whatever mounted on those frames needs to be designed in a manner that prevents damage when the flexing occurs. I am not sure how the manufactures should handle this, perhaps a bit more flexible sidewalls and a lot larger rubber mounts and bushings attaching the coach on the frames, and while more flexible sidewalls may not sound possible with fiberglass, fiberglass can be made to be a bit more flexible as well or the manufacture could have expansion areas in the coach to relieve the stress. While very different in design and nature, I have quite a few fiberglass fishing rods where you can take the tip and bend it all the way to the handle, never a crack or break at all. Of course they are round tubes, but the point is that even fiberglass can flex without cracking when designed for that purpose. ~CA
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Old 04-14-2024, 10:56 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by craigav View Post
My comment here is not about any particular company or in defense of one over the other.

I have seen (many of us have) over the years issues with sidewall cracks and almost always the frame is targeted as the issue. While there is some truth in that, the entire truth is that almost all metals used for car, truck, RV's, buildings, etc., use steel or aluminum that flex's. It is often unnoticed but tall buildings, bridges, trucks, cars, trailers are flexing all of the time. In the attached image you will see that even large 18 wheeler flat bed trailers are crowned as the design is of such that the load on it will flex the trailer more level and the crown adds strength.

Just like a Pickup truck, if the bed was rigidly attached to the cab, it is likely that there would be cracks where the two join. Most pickups have a gap there as well as rubber mounts for the cab forward and the bed sections that allow for the frame to flex without damaging the truck. This is also true for buildings where the window frames are designed to accommodate flex of the building. If you take for example the image I shared and place a sheet of fiberglass and rigidly attach it to the sides of the trailer and then add a load on the trailer then the flex of the trailer will either no longer occur as the glass will keep the trailer rigid, or the glass will break. If RV's that have cracking and the frame is still intact, then I suspect the design of the RV itself is likely to be at fault. Had the RV been placed on the trailer frame with large rubber bushings then the frame could flex and not crack the sidewalls, or even if expansion areas were built in as will like with a pickup truck then that could help. Also, many sidewalls for trailers that are aluminum never have this issue as the sidewalls can absorb the flex.

Point being, I believe many people think that the metal RV frames should never flex which is not correct, they do flex and whatever mounted on those frames needs to be designed in a manner that prevents damage when the flexing occurs. I am not sure how the manufactures should handle this, perhaps a bit more flexible sidewalls and a lot larger rubber mounts and bushings attaching the coach on the frames, and while more flexible sidewalls may not sound possible with fiberglass, fiberglass can be made to be a bit more flexible as well or the manufacture could have expansion areas in the coach to relieve the stress. While very different in design and nature, I have quite a few fiberglass fishing rods where you can take the tip and bend it all the way to the handle, never a crack or break at all. Of course they are round tubes, but the point is that even fiberglass can flex without cracking when designed for that purpose. ~CA
There should be movement allowed in the design no doubt. But 5th wheels have been made for decades and this issue hasnít been a mass problem until recent years. In part due to social media and the ability to expose issues more widely. However social media has been around now for a while. The first frame flex issue I remember hearing about was only a year or so ago.

I would guess this isnít a new issue but one that has grown with the explosion in production of RVís. I feel for this who are going through it though.
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Old 04-14-2024, 11:14 AM   #5
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There should be movement allowed in the design no doubt. But 5th wheels have been made for decades and this issue hasn’t been a mass problem until recent years. In part due to social media and the ability to expose issues more widely. However social media has been around now for a while. The first frame flex issue I remember hearing about was only a year or so ago.

I would guess this isn’t a new issue but one that has grown with the explosion in production of RV’s. I feel for this who are going through it though.
I have heard of sidewall cracks for many years and I am not sure when the first time I was aware that some RV's have encountered sidewall cracks, many years ago for sure, As you mentioned I have as well seen even more reports over the last few years for sure. However, the question would be what changed? Could it be the frames are built to the same specs (and flex) that they have always had and the coach builders made changes? Certainly a possibility for sure. I don't know the answer, although I think many RV manufactures may desire to place the blame on the frame builder and the frame manufacture may desire to place the blame on the coach builder. ~CA

I will add a thought though, imo I would believe that it is the final manufacture who should make things right for the purchaser. They should never build upon a frame that is not strong enough for their design including the knowing, testing and determining for themselves the flex the frame will have. Similar to a house (and I suspect these issues do occur) if you purchased a new house and it fell apart and fell in on itself and they told you "Sorry" there is nothing we can do for you as we didn't build the foundation and its underlying supports that failed then well, what to do? I don't know the answers again and I suspect that happens to some people.

As you stated, I also feel for those who have encountered these issues.
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Old 04-14-2024, 11:34 AM   #6
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I have heard of sidewall cracks for many years and I am not sure when the first time I was aware that some RV's have encountered sidewall cracks, many years ago for sure, As you mentioned I have as well seen even more reports over the last few years for sure. However, the question would be what changed? Could it be the frames are built to the same specs (and flex) that they have always had and the coach builders made changes? Certainly a possibility for sure. I don't know the answer, although I think many RV manufactures may desire to place the blame on the frame builder and the frame manufacture may desire to place the blame on the coach builder. ~CA
One example I saw the lag bolts that are used to anchor the wood wall framing to the frame had either worked their way out or, in a couple of areas just werenít installed at all. In that case itís easy to say if all of the lag bolts were installed the ones that worked their way out wouldnít have happened. This was from a YouTube channel called One Strange Adventure. And it was a Grand Design. I saw another where shotty welds (like really bad) had cracked so when the frame cracks you can imagine what all could happen after that. This seemed weird to me because I thought all of Lipperts frames were robot welded. Either way the video of the welds showed how bad the welds were. I donít remember what channel that was.

At least in those two instances it appeared poor workmanship was the cause.
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Old 04-14-2024, 11:51 AM   #7
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I think another factor here is that with the increased capability of trucks over the years people are running faster. Couple that with the terrible roads in the US these days and youíll have issues. Additionally people are getting larger and larger fifth wheels and carrying everything they own. Yet, the trailers are built the same as they have been for some time.
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Old 04-14-2024, 12:07 PM   #8
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Couple that with the terrible roads in the US these days and you’ll have issues.

I think you hit the nail.
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Old 04-14-2024, 02:23 PM   #9
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Again, not specific to that video, but anyone can post a video. And nothing fires up subscribers than thinking their favorite channel is under attack.
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Old 04-17-2024, 04:41 PM   #10
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Again, not specific to that video, but anyone can post a video. And nothing fires up subscribers than thinking their favorite channel is under attack.
If you go back about a year or two ago and watch some of Liz Amazing's videos her big thing was to get to 100K subscribers. She started pushing the envelope get people to provide negative reviews of dealer experience, issues with their RV and with the frame flex crazy she got onto that. To me if she wanted to start playing with the big boys it would be pretty naive to think they are not going to push back a bit. I pass watching any of her videos. There's already enough negative out there.
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Old 04-17-2024, 06:02 PM   #11
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They told Liz to stop making false claims. They told her two of her videos had false claims and told her to remove them.
Is frame flex always the fault of the frame/RV manufacturers? Absolutely not! Sometimes there are accidents, or near accidents involved. Sometimes there is lack of maintenance allowing a leak to cause rot in the side walls which are part of the support system. Those are owner caused. Sometimes the bolts from the body to the frame are loose. This one could go either way. Could be poor attachment method, could be lack of maintenance. Welds broke at the weld. Likely bad welds by manufacturer.
The point is, there is not one single cause for all.
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Old 04-17-2024, 06:21 PM   #12
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We watched Liz when she was traveling with Paul. While I respect and relate to Paul's admitted struggles, we always felt that the division creating the two to split was not just one way. When she purchased the Class A we followed her for a while until the videos got so blunt with many of the issues that's being described here.

Now while I am not going to defend her one way or the other, some of the problems that created some of the videos were on fairly new units and the lack of response from the manufacturers and the dealers.

Of course there are a lot of rv buyers that's not experienced with knowing that if you own one, especially a new one, there will need to be a lot of tinkering with them and can only know what needs to be addressed when these rvs are used.

There needs to be a lot of patience too when any problem is noticed. Diagnostic times at a dealer and dealing with third parties that dealers have to contend with such as manufacturers of the components that makes up their units, this can consume a lot of down time. If someone has a limited amount of time to use their unit, all of the break downs cuts into the time and frustration can boil over. Liz sought some of the folks out. And the folks were more than willing to share their frustration in public.
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Old 04-18-2024, 12:21 PM   #13
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Thereís usually 2 sides to most stories and sometimes 3Ö
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Old 04-18-2024, 12:59 PM   #14
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I think another factor here is that with the increased capability of trucks over the years people are running faster. Couple that with the terrible roads in the US these days and youíll have issues. Additionally people are getting larger and larger fifth wheels and carrying everything they own. Yet, the trailers are built the same as they have been for some time.
Was thinking the same thing. A couple of decades ago mega-trailers were a rarity. Now 40' seems to be entry level.
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Old 04-18-2024, 02:06 PM   #15
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Basic point I think is that any metal, given the opportunity to flex wil indeed flex. The engineers that design around given flex must insure that the flex is safely addressed in their designs. Case in point, aircraft wings. They flex. A lot. Safely.
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Old 04-20-2024, 07:46 PM   #16
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We just watched the new video from Liz. It makes me sick to my stomach. My entire working experiences and needs centered around "I had better do things right and correctly the first time around" People's lives depended on it, plus my work was a remote statement of me after being put into use. Anything that was wrong, I stepped up using my own dime to correct it like yesterday. Repeat business depended on my standing behind my work and product.

She discussed how she was threatened to the point of having to sell her motor home. She reports that she has purchased a new rv but will not be providing any pictures and reports using her current rv, but will still be putting out videos. She fears for her safety.
She said that she felt that she would be too recognizable in her previous one.

She was originally contacted by Bob Tiffin in the pretense of discussing one of the issues. He came with I believe 20 related executives on a zoom call and they ask her not to run anymore videos and to take down the ones she had on one of the failures on their motor coach.

She states that after that Lippert sent her the letter that demanded she not put out anymore videos relating to their products.
I am of the belief that the industry at large in nothing more than junk dealers and reading rv forums for a several years now are just plain money grabbers.

We are a lost nation with the lack of a large portion of working class that may wish to work but has little senior leadership that cares not a thing about true quality and even training blue color workers.

What does a person buy if they wish to upgrade with the change of needs? Better keep what you have and then repair as you go as your parts might age out. Accept some of the limitations, if at all possible unless you have plenty of time to shake down a new one that you buy from a decent outlet. If you buy a new to you for an upgrade, see if the owner has a log book.
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Old 04-20-2024, 09:22 PM   #17
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Thereís usually 2 sides to most stories and sometimes 3Ö
Exactly. On the plus side for her, more viewers equal more money.
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Old 04-20-2024, 10:13 PM   #18
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Exactly. On the plus side for her, more viewers equal more money.
Well of course, or is there two sides to the stories? According to the provided comment directly from Liz, with what looks like supporting letters clearly shown in the video, why are the two specific corporations follow up with an open dialogue using her platform that you claim is receiving a number of rv owners and probably perspective buyers? As she states the exchanges may generate a positive outcome and would be great PR for the outlets. Are they two big for their britches, so to speak? I lean on that side.

Of course the don't care attitude is on display across a wide variety of corporations that gives the consumer the finger, and in this case the rv consumer when major issues arises. Heck even the simplest stuff that should have been caught at the factor before leaving is rarely attended to at the dealers.

I know, I have been on the receiving end of the finger by one of the major rv outlets, seven months of hell and the supposed warranty ran out and I was left with a leaking mess and a floor that was like a humpback whale after one year of ownership.
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Old 04-21-2024, 06:36 AM   #19
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I'm certain fans of hers have a different reaction. In a sense there is a personal connection.

Anytime someone is in the entertainment industry and paid for views I'm suspicious.
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Old 04-21-2024, 06:59 AM   #20
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I'm certain fans of hers have a different reaction. In a sense there is a personal connection.

Anytime someone is in the entertainment industry and paid for views I'm suspicious.
In the same manner, where does censorship end ? As commoners we are increasingly seeing the line blurred , depending on how much money you have for lawyers, in way too many cases. You tow a certain line or it will cost you if you don't shut up.
I for one experienced the horrors of a major rv corporation screwing me. I actually thought I would get some customer support, but quickly found out that I was just a number after they gladly collected my money.


Since then as I shop I laugh at sales folks and sales managers and of course the general manager when brought in to tell me how great the dealership is and will be after the sale with full contempt. I am lucky though, having so much time rving and building similar stuff that depends on quality dealing with peoples lives to see a lot of glaring crap and issues built in at the factory when looking at new campers in particulars.

The only reason I use larger dealerships when shopping is since they do offer a variety of brands in similar sizes so we can compare. If things works out I have no problem paying their price and buying new, knowing that a shakedown will be required . All the campers in my market just have a different color and a name on the outside. The layouts in similar sizes are the same but the guts are just a tab bit different. But most of that stuff is disposable, which I understand.
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