THOR buys TIFFIN

[EA37TS]

Tiffin needed money for innovation, capital projects and to continue operating. If they didn't sell they would have been facing bankruptcy within a few years.

As to structure, Tiffin is a part of THOR Industries and not under the umbrella of Thor Motorcoach just like Jayco is a separate operating division. Neither Jayco nor Tiffin answer to the Thor Motorcoach management team. Will that change in the future, maybe but nobody knows at this time. I imagine as long as they remain successful and in the black Thor will remain in the background.

Full disclosure, yes I own Thor stock.

[JesseS]

Originally Posted by Trapper2020

Another one bites the dust. When will all this consolidation end. Not many if any private ones left. Glad I am in my last rig.

Enjoy the journey

Same here, got my 2016 before Thor got a hold of Jayco, had a few issues at 1st, but nothing in the last 3 years to speak of, also glad it's our last rig.

[Johnynorthland]

Wow, this is some crazy timing for this post! I just told my wife, (who’s been bugging me to trade up to a class A), If I were to buy a class A gasser I’d only consider a Tiffin! Just said that this morning to her!

I’ve been very disappointed in a Thor product in the past, no excuse for some of the poor workmanship, and I’m not talking about the run of the mill issues I’ve experienced in pastRV’s I’ve owned!
So having said that, I’ll continue to watch Tiffin carefully, they still may hold up to their reputation, but my experience is when some gets “bought out” and they are still steering the ship, suddenly, and sadly, they no longer care if their sails have holes in them as long as they are still floating!

[msherw]

Airstream (our last trailer) was left to operate independently of Thor after the purchase. However, my understanding was Thor had price and profit numbers that Airstream had to meet but were left autonomous on how to achieve it.

Our 2018 was NOT as well built as the ones prior to Thor based on owner satisfaction surveys. I believe AS was purchased in 2013?

I am happy with our Jayco Redhawk build after a few hiccups with the slide that were corrected. This Class C will be our last rig. Here's to low gas/diesel prices for the next 10 yrs.!!

[rodpod]

Originally Posted by Grumpy

I personally know more very satisfied owners than I do dissatisfied owners.

The problem is that right after the buyout is when the "BOOM" hit. So if you have 5% of your production with issues and the production skyrockets what was 5% of 30,000 or 1,500 is now 5% of 40,000 or 2,000 and they are the ones you hear from.

Well that's a cheery thought for a new buyer. You're garbage Jayco unit is only one of thousands of defective products out of X produced. That should be unacceptable in any industry even the notoriously unreliable Tesla doesn't have that percentage of model 3s defects.(not defending Tesla).

As an experienced quality professional, I have seen this story all too often when good companies begin justifying their quality reduction actions due to competitor cost advantages. They wind up producing the same level of crap over time.

It's axiomatic you either build quality and deserve the reputation and price, or take the low (Thor) road. either way it's a balancing act and those who get it wrong go out of business.

The history of the RV industry is littered with the failures. I own a Greyhawk it was built the first year Thor bought out Jayco, the unit is a piece of junk. You say you know more satisfied owners than unsatisfied, that will erode as more of the Thor production philosophy is inculcated into the acquisitions. Time will tell.

In general, the quality control in the RV industry is abysmal. Eventually, an RV builder will come along and get it right by developing a reasonably reliable product. They will grab a share of the market comprised of frustrated and P.O.ed RVers who will willingly pay for a better experience. Count me among them.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by msherw

Our 2018 was NOT as well built as the ones prior to Thor based on owner satisfaction surveys. I believe AS was purchased in 2013?

If you're refering to Thor's purchase of Jayco, that was 2016.

[GABob]

A product is a result of the materials and labor inputs. If a company starts to cheapen up on its supply chain (buying lesser grade products, say a cheaper brand of microwave, furnace, faucet, etc.) that could eventually lead to more problems. The labor portion is a function of the worker bees, training and quality system in place.

When a new parent buys out another firm, they look to the acquired firm to “help pay” for the acquisition by laying out challenges to reduce costs. That can be done on the materials side by leveraging the buying power of the parent, or moving the supply chain to alternative mfrs of the same quality to align with the parent. Labor costs can be trimmed by gains in productivity thru training (or alternatively working with fewer personnel which likely can lead to problems). Leveraging other indirect costs thru the parent can help as well.

All said, it just remains to be seen how the new owner and stepchild will work together.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by msherw

Airstream (our last trailer) was left to operate independently of Thor after the purchase. However, my understanding was Thor had price and profit numbers that Airstream had to meet but were left autonomous on how to achieve it.

Our 2018 was NOT as well built as the ones prior to Thor based on owner satisfaction surveys. I believe AS was purchased in 2013?

I am happy with our Jayco Redhawk build after a few hiccups with the slide that were corrected. This Class C will be our last rig. Here's to low gas/diesel prices for the next 10 yrs.!!

Gas and diesel will be knocking on the door of 4.00 per gallon by June.

[Liven-good]

The reality of any of these acquisitions is they are wholly intending to maximize profit and they will do that regardless of it means squeezing suppliers or replacing them, thinning staffing, investing in lower quality materials, etc.

In almost no circumstances can they take a company with quality products and good customer service and maintain or improve that while squeezing more profit out of the company.

I can see them getting better pricing on standard components because of the ability to negotiate with more volume, that can help turn more profit. But once that well has dried up they will continue to maintain a higher profit target every year by pulling the other remaining levers, no raises, layoffs, replace higher quality material for lower quality, decrease warranty periods, etc.

When it comes to consumer products sold to the public, big companies usually buy smaller ones who have quality associated with their name, and try to capitalize on the name and begin to make the product to the bigger companies standards. Thats why you always hear, “this company made great products until they were bought by “XYZ” company, regardless of what the company is.

[Route 66 Traveler]

Originally Posted by EA37TS

Gas and diesel will be knocking on the door of 4.00 per gallon by June.

Plus an increase in gas tax.......

[Goat1936]

Glad I bought my vanleigh earlier this year. Thor screws up everything it touches

[TaftCoach]

Originally Posted by Route 66 Traveler

We owned a Tiffin Allegro in 2001. Had some issues and Bob Tiffin called me direct on my cell phone twice to assure us the problems would be taken care of...and they were. Sorry to see they caved into the corporate giant. The employees probably aren't too happy about it either.

I've read so many stories about Bob Tiffen calling people when they had problems with their units. Yet everyone talks about the quality.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by Liven-good

.... Thats why you always hear, “this company made great products until they were bought by “XYZ” company, regardless of what the company is.

And oftentimes those statements are made by people that had one minor experience and don't know what they are talking about but rather repeating the words of other folks that don't have a clue. When questioned those folks more than likely can't provide one single example of what changed to reduce quality but rather just let loose with some unfounded shotgun blast.

As far as current Tiffin owners go their options were Tiffin selling out to someone or going bankrupt. At least under Thor there is still a warranty to apply. Tiifin didn't have the luxury of a government bailout like GM.

BTW, if Tiffin was such a value why did Warren Buffet buy them for Forest River or why didn't Winnebago buy them like they bought Newmar?

Also, as a side note, some manufacturers get acquired because they are more valuable to tear down and sell off the assets than they are to continue operations. Many companies have been bought for their infrastructure, patents, or equipment alone and not because of the product they produce.

[TaftCoach]

Originally Posted by EA37TS

And oftentimes those statements are made by people that had one minor experience and don't know what they are talking about but rather repeating the words of other folks that don't have a clue. When questioned those folks more than likely can't provide one single example of what changed to reduce quality but rather just let loose with some unfounded shotgun blast.

As far as current Tiffin owners go their options were Tiffin selling out to someone or going bankrupt. At least under Thor there is still a warranty to apply. Tiifin didn't have the luxury of a government bailout like GM.

BTW, if Tiffin was such a value why did Warren Buffet buy them for Forest River or why didn't Winnebago buy them like they bought Newmar?

Also, as a side note, some manufacturers get acquired because they are more valuable to tear down and sell off the assets than they are to continue operations. Many companies have been bought for their infrastructure, patents, or equipment alone and not because of the product they produce.

It seems to be human nature to resist change and be nostalgic.

I agree with your post.

Why didn't someone else buy them? There is only one high bidder. Why didn't Thor or Forrest River buy Newmar? Timing and some nebulous concept of fit are usually cited.

My grandfather founded and grew a chain of dry cleaners expecting to turn it over to his kids. None wanted to be in the dry cleaning business. So he sold them and retired. He'd see his former customers who would tell him how the stores went down hill, the quality wasn't as good.

Funny thing was he was now a customer and thought they were doing a much better job than when he owned them.

[jayconorthpoint18]

You converted the drum brakes to Disc on your Jayco
North Point? How are they braking for you?

[Hollander Mutthaulers]

For what its worth I ordered a 2017 16XRB from Jayco with galvanized steel wheel wells, a feature that locked the deal for Jayco, and a small fan in the bathroom vent. Three months later I received from now Thor Jayco perhaps the first Thor-built 16XRB. It had plastic wheel wells (and who cares about the missing little 4" fan). The steel wheel wells were a feature that determined buying Jayco. I complained bitterly to Thor Jayco to no avail. They were heartless and harsh - we can do what we want so go stick your head in a toilet and flush.

The half dozen things that needed fixing under warranty could have happened with Jayco or Thor I suppose but I suspect all that was wrong with this rig was related to Thor. I have had good support from Thor Jayco and excellent service from Terrytown and even better service from the Mutthaulers crew - my wife and I.

It's too bad these independents get bought up by the conglomerates - they really do not care like a family-owned business does. Their business base is all money; a monopoly doesn't need to maintain a reputation.

[1HasBeen]

Thor was formed at the purchase of Airstream, and much earlier than most are prone to think. https://www.airstream.com/blog/the-h...and-airstream/


I agree with rodpod's post above regarding quality, and would add that overcoming the quality gap would be more difficult than instituting corporate culture change, as the entire industry is largely built from a Lippert catalog.

[RPR]

It would surprise people to know the number of corporations (manufacturers and retail stores) that are owned by bigger US and international corporations.

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by 1HasBeen

as the entire industry is largely built from a Lippert catalog.

AMEN! That, along with the fact RV sales started to boom again around the time of the buyout and production increased.

From a 2017 article:

RV sales have climbed by more than 15 percent in the U.S. each of the last two years, and 2017 is expected to be the year they finally broke the 500,000 mark for the first time. Share prices of the two leading publicly traded RV manufacturers, Thor Industries, the No. 1 overall maker, and Winnebago Industries, No. 3 overall, have been hitting new record highs; the No. 2 maker in the industry, Forest River, is a subsidiary of Berkshire Hathaway.

[norty1]

I am seeing a lot of low priced rv's out on the road lately. CW is pushing those small Coleman tt's heavy and many newbies and small families are buying them like hotcakes.