Towing capacity and cargo capacity

[Crabman]

This thread is being monitored

[CampNow]

Originally Posted by CampNow

. . . All other things being equal, a heavier truck will tow the same weight trailer more comfortably, in a more stable (and dare I say, safer) fashion, than a lighter truck. Just simple physics at work.

Originally Posted by vcbice

So I guess you tow your trailer with a Class8 HDT truck then.

I believe you missed the point. Heavier is relative. Both a 1/2-ton or Class 8 truck could be defined as "heavier" depending on the context of the weight comparison. For instance, a 1/2-ton F150 is heavier than a mid-size, Nissan Frontier. A Class 8 is heavier than a 3/4-ton. Hope this clarifies things for you

[nighthawk87]

Originally Posted by Crabman

This thread is being monitored

What does that mean?

[CampNow]

Originally Posted by Atlee

But I'm not crazy enough to pull a 10.5k trailer with a half ton.

However, my all steel HDPP 1/2 ton pulls a 6500# trailer just fine. Of course, if I would pull that same 6500# trailer with an all steel F450, I wouldn't know it was there.

I hear ya.

Towing 10,500 lbs. with a 2015 - 2018 F150 is roughly equivalent (in terms of trailer to TV weight ratio) as pulling 16,000 lbs. with a 2014 - 2018 Ram Cummins 3/4-ton truck (both scenarios are roughly equivalent to a 2 to 1 trailer to TV weight ratio). I've driven both configurations. I'd say the pucker factor is about the same.

Every tow vehicle has its stability and comfort limits when towing. . . as defined by the driver of the tow vehicle. It doesn't matter what the manufacturer says, or what a neighbor or someone online says, these subjective stability and comfort limits are ultimately determined by the driver of the TV.

I mentioned the trailer to TV weight ratio because I've found it to be, in lieu of a towing test drive, a generally fair indicator how stable and comfortable a given TV will be when towing a given trailer. Some folks may not pucker-up until they reach a 2+ to 1 trailer to TV weight ratio, while others may draw the line at 1.5 to 1, or lower. Bottom line, it's just another tool you may (or may not) want to use to make the best, informed choice you can.

[Crabman]

Originally Posted by nighthawk87

What does that mean?

It means these can I tow it, should I tow it, will my truck tow it, 3/4 vs half, etc threads have a history of going south fast, some of which are eventually edited and or closed. Therefore we are keeping an eye on it. So let's play nice.

[SOMBATFAMILY]

Trailer to TV ratio and don’t forget the 15% TW. 5000# F150 with people and TW will be 7500# towing a 5000 to 10,000# trailer will be fine as long as they use pro ride hitch.

[Dustdevil]

In California, a driver who is involved in an accident, if it is determined that driver did not have an adequate tow vehicle for the load he/she is towing, may be held liable for any and all damages incurred as a result of the accident. This is how it works in California, and I'm sure it's similar in many other states as well. How do they determine if the tow vehicle is adequate? There is a sticker inside the driver's door that tells them. If they weigh your trailer or 5er or toad, and it exceeds the limits, you're hosed. They typically use the door sticker as a guide, and that is determined and affixed by the manufacturer. Your insurance company may also decline to cover your accident, and they will likely be within their rights to do so, if you are overloaded.

That's the reality of driving an overloaded vehicle. Choose wisely. You could easily lose everything you own.

[CampNow]

Originally Posted by CampNow

. . . Every tow vehicle has its stability and comfort limits when towing. . . as defined by the driver of the tow vehicle. It doesn't matter what the manufacturer says, or what a neighbor or someone online says, these subjective stability and comfort limits are ultimately determined by the driver of the TV . . .

Just to clarify, I would never advocate exceeding the GVWR, GCWR, RAWR, FAWR, or payload rating of any truck. These are objective ratings from the manufacturer that should not be exceeded.

However, stability and comfort (while towing) are subjective in nature and cannot be easily quantified---which is one of the reasons why these type of threads get so heated at times.

I consider myself very conservative when it comes to applying the manufacturer's maximum ratings. On those rare occasions I towed at the maximum rating, it felt unstable, uncomfortable, and unsafe. Over the years I've discovered a 1.5 to 1 trailer to tow vehicle weight ratio is the absolute maximum for me. The maximum tow capacity ratings for most trucks are typically 2 to 1. Some of the 2018 F150's have trailer to TV weight ratios (based on the F150's maximum tow capacity ratings) as high as 2.5 to 1.

[vcbice]

Originally Posted by CampNow

I believe you missed the point. Heavier is relative. Both a 1/2-ton or Class 8 truck could be defined as "heavier" depending on the context of the weight comparison. For instance, a 1/2-ton F150 is heavier than a mid-size, Nissan Frontier. A Class 8 is heavier than a 3/4-ton. Hope this clarifies things for you

LOL, no I did not. You said a heavier tow vehicle is 'safer'. To me that means I should be towing with the heaviest tow vehicle I can find in order to be as 'safe' as possible. I was making that point to verify your opinion.

FWIW, a 'heavy' vehicle is not a guarantee of stability or safety. A heavier vehicle takes longer to stop than a lighter vehicle. A heavier vehicle does not maneuver as quickly as a lighter vehicle. And don't forget wheelbase length and width. A very heavy short vehicle is not as 'stable' as a longer one, but, a longer one will not maneuver as quickly.

Your weight ratio 'rules' might be fine for you. I am fine with mfg specs. I've put many thousands of miles near those specs and have always felt comfortable when towing.

[CampNow]

Originally Posted by vcbice

LOL, no I did not. You said a heavier tow vehicle is 'safer'. To me that means I should be towing with the heaviest tow vehicle I can find in order to be as 'safe' as possible. I was making that point to verify your opinion.

FWIW, a 'heavy' vehicle is not a guarantee of stability or safety. A heavier vehicle takes longer to stop than a lighter vehicle. A heavier vehicle does not maneuver as quickly as a lighter vehicle. And don't forget wheelbase length and width. A very heavy short vehicle is not as 'stable' as a longer one, but, a longer one will not maneuver as quickly.

Your weight ratio 'rules' might be fine for you. I am fine with mfg specs. I've put many thousands of miles near those specs and have always felt comfortable when towing.

There are many, many factors to consider when purchasing a tow vehicle. You could write a book trying to cover it all---some have. There is no one rating or spec that will magically point you towards the best tow vehicle.

A good mechanic has many tools in their toolbox. Some get used more than others--no one tool does it all.

The trailer to tow vehicle weight ratio is just another tool. You've stated it's one you would never use. That's fine. However, just because you've chosen not to use it, certainly doesn't mean it may not be useful to others.

[BJR]

Originally Posted by CampNow

Just to clarify, I would never advocate exceeding the GVWR, GCWR, RAWR, FAWR, or payload rating of any truck. These are objective ratings from the manufacturer that should not be exceeded.

However, stability and comfort (while towing) are subjective in nature and cannot be easily quantified---which is one of the reasons why these type of threads get so heated at times.

Add 'reliability' to the subjective column and I think you're spot on.

[T-Roy]

Originally Posted by Dustdevil

So, I have heard a number of horror stories about someone getting in a wreck with their rig, and having the law come down on them for being overloaded, assuming the load was a factor in the crash. I've also heard of insurance companies denying coverage, or threatening to do such, because the owner had his rig exceeding either the GVWR or GCWR, or not having the proper license class to be driving such a heavy or long vehicle. Doesn't necessarily happen every time, but you could be in some pretty hot water if you wreck your unit, even if you all walk away from the crash with just a few bumps

This is why I plan on buying an F350 dually instead of an F450 dually because believe it or not the 350 actually has more published payload than the 450. Especially in the platinum trim levels.

[Mad5581]

What's funny is that RVers have a been misunderstanding truck weight ratings for so long... I see this talking point all the time. Okay here are facts for you. 1 half ton trucks are a car with a bed and steel frame under them. Can they haul and tow stuff? Yes. Are they built for constant hauling or towing? No (weekend warriors) that's the half ton for you. I would stay within your manufacturer's weight limits. 2. 3/4 ton trucks are built to pull and haul. They have the frame, suspension and normally the powertrain for it. Again this is a heavy hauler on the weekends
(Weekend warriors with big toys). 3. 1 ton trucks with single rear wheel can haul most anything you can put in the back and can tow most anything on the market. This class of truck though is similar to the 3/4 ton has minor differences in the right places to give it the extra edge needed for more prolonged hard use hauling or pulling. The f450 is stupid for rv use unless you have a custom built trailer and want to get a CDL (in most states). F450 is basically the same as an F350 with bigger tires and price tag. So keep this I'm mind truck makers (all of them) are looking out for their pocket books when assigning GVWR's. If you ask an engineer for Ford, GM or Ram if the had any input in to giving GVWR's all of them will say no. The weights assigned to trucks has everything to do with $, not capability. Most manufacturers claim that the specs shown are what the truck in question is capable of doing with minimal additional ware and tare, and with minimal changes to its driveability.. now can you be charged or sued for wrecking a truck and trailer that is overloaded? Yes, but you can be sued for wrecking a truck that under weight. Will insurance pay if you wipe out overweight YES (unless they state in the policy otherwise) some cheap companies like the general, and .com crap insurance companies will try to get out of it sure. But they have to prove negligence and the have to prove you were overweight, and that's what caused the wreck. Burden of proof is on them. So yes pulling a 40 foot 5th wheel with a half ton. First off your stupid second there is no doubt your overloaded. Now having a 1 ton with a GVWR of 11,600 and it scaling out at 12,200 I would say if your comfortable and your truck pulls it nicely then do it. If it's going to make you loose sleep then dont do it. That said I know for a fact your truck is more then capable of the extra weight and I'm 100% sure if you wipe out nobody is going to know you were 600lbs over your gvwr unless you tell them you were. The one thing I can tell you is do not ever exceed the weight capacity on your tires just DONT DO IT! Tire blow out is the fastest way to put your rig on its side.

[2edgesword]

Originally Posted by Mad5581

So keep this I'm mind truck makers (all of them) are looking out for their pocket books when assigning GVWR's. If you ask an engineer for Ford, GM or Ram if the had any input in to giving GVWR's all of them will say no. The weights assigned to trucks has everything to do with $, not capability.

Engineers do have something to say about GVWR just not the final say. My engineer experience is electrical and I’ve dealt with many electrical engineers in the automotive industry. That experience tells me that while dollars and the ability to advertise your vehicle as “class leading” in various areas is important they are going to have hard engineering data that supports the GVWR numbers they publish and those numbers are provided by the engineering department. Engineers are going to tend to be conservative so they might want to publish a number that is 50% less than what their test data indicates. Marketing and sales is going to want to publish a number that’s closer to 100% of what the test data indicates. Regardless of which number that gets published both are based on input of the engineering department. Market does pull a number out of a hat to publish just because it’s higher than the number published by XYZ company.

[Mad5581]

Well I guess I didn't mean to say the engineers have no say it the numbers. They just dont have final say. And yes I have extensive experience in the automotive and truck industry. And I wouldn't ever recommend going outside your personal comfort zone when it comes to hauling anything. And knowing your limitations and the limitations of your vehicle is extremely important. My point is the limitations of your vehicle in some cases are slightly more the what the manufacturer says they are.

[gharrison]

please tell us wat we need to buy....to tow our new Jayco 315 rlts 5th wheel?? My old 2002 f 250 4x4 swb 7.3 L diesel with a 3.73 gear is doing OK but I feel pushed at times. Hills pull us down in speed. All this may be normal but we are new to this size trailer. What makes a f350 with a 3.55 gear pull my 5th wheel better?

Help, we can't mess up on what we buy.

Thanks

[Crabman]

Originally Posted by gharrison

please tell us wat we need to buy....to tow our new Jayco 315 rlts 5th wheel?? My old 2002 f 250 4x4 swb 7.3 L diesel with a 3.73 gear is doing OK but I feel pushed at times. Hills pull us down in speed. All this may be normal but we are new to this size trailer. What makes a f350 with a 3.55 gear pull my 5th wheel better?

Help, we can't mess up on what we buy.

Thanks

You may get a better response if you start a new thread with your question in the tow vehicle forum.

[Mad5581]

gharrison, I can really cant tell you because I dont know all the details I know dry weight is about 2700lbs tongue weight and dry GVW is about 12k. Using kinda a standard 1000lbs of extra truck weight (fuel, and passengers). I personally would look at a 1 ton with a gvwr of no less then 11,600lbs. So that puts you looking at the highest gvwr f350, ram3500 or GM3500. If you want a SRW you should be fine. But if you feel most comfortable within your GVWR of your truck you need a dually. I personally have a 2018 NP 377rlbh I pull with a 2017 GMC 3500hd Denali. My gvwr is 11600. My 5th wheel hitch weight (with passengers in truck, and loaded to go camping) I'm at 12,200 on the truck. My rear axle weight was rating is 7050 and I'm at 7450. So I pulled the trailer a few times with nothing done to it and the truck pulled and drove fine no issues at all. Because i dont care for duallys especially as a daily driver i really wanted to stay with the SRW. I opted to upgrade to higher weight capacity tires, and airbags on the back with onboard air. (Onboard air is nice for maintaining tire air pressure on the road, so has multiple purposes) after adding airbags I have no regrets the truck pulls the 5er over mountain passes at 60 no problem. The OEM engine brake is almost too good as I drop to 45 without touching the brakes on long down grades. But that said it's all about personal preference as far as what manufacturers truck you go with. In the SRW configuration they all have really close to the same GVWRs so if your going to buy a new truck I would recommend going and looking at what each manufacturer has to offer. I personally went with the gmc because it was the best deal offered. I was originally looking at the ram, but also looked really hard at the F350. I have a good friend that has the 2017 F350 and he likes it, but that said I get 23mpg empty he gets 17. We both get about 10 to 12 loaded but his trailer is about 3000lbs lighter then my 5er. His Ford burns about 1/3 more DEF then mine dose. And yes he gets to the top of the mountains just ahead of me but like I said he's 3000lbs lighter then me too... good luck.

[bono]

There are many examples on the market where it works the other way around. Many German / Japanese / Korean SUV/cars have lower towing capacity numbers for the US market or no numbers at all.

... yes, with the same or more robust drivetrains in the US.

Originally Posted by 2edgesword

(...)Engineers are going to tend to be conservative so they might want to publish a number that is 50% less than what their test data indicates. Marketing and sales is going to want to publish a number that’s closer to 100% of what the test data indicates. Regardless of which number that gets published both are based on input of the engineering department. Market does pull a number out of a hat to publish just because it’s higher than the number published by XYZ company.

[Mad5581]

As to your second question, what make the f350 with 3.55 gears pull better? It's the power and torque numbers on the newer motors. Your 7.3 is a great motor I mean probably one of the best built. But with a nasty tune on it your probably around 400 hp and 800lbft of torque. Stock your under 300 hp and I think around 500lbft of torque. So with your 7.3 what Ford did was put taller gears in it to make up for the lack of power not carrying about fuel efficiency. New trucks have tons of power and torque and dont need super tall gears to pull massive loads. So the new f350 is I think at 450hp and 920 or 930lbft of torque. Big difference from the good old 7.3. So in order to get better fuel economy they put smaller gears in. That's why it's not uncommon for new diesels to be in the low 20's with that much power. Now I know your thinking I get around 20mpgs with my 7.3. Yeah you do but you have 100 or more less horsepower and little over half the torque. That is also a reason I went with the gmc is all duramax equipped trucks have the 3.73 gears (better for pulling then the 3.55 ford talks big about) and even with my gears (that are more known for pulling then fuel economy) I still get better fuel economy the most fords do. Why? The gearing in the transmission is why. And where my power band is in the RPM range. Ford max power is around 2300 RPMs and mine is at 1900 RPMs my max torque is at like 1800 the ford is at like 2100. So I'm getting more power at a lower RPM then the Ford with 3.55 gears. I hope this helps a bit. Personally I love the 7.3 powerstroke it's a great motor and I really like 5.9 Cummins. Unfortunately neither can stack up to the new motors for power without a lot of modifications and neither can with any longevity. It's almost like comparing apples to stakes, just not in the same class. The older motors any monkey can work on them and fix it. The new motors take a degree just to understand how it works. There are pluses and minuses to any manufacturer and any year range. You just have to decide what works best for you.