Towing capacity and cargo capacity

[wags999]

From reading the posts for the last 3 or 4 years it seems many, especially new to RV folks, confuse towing capacity and cargo capacity.

In my minds eye, when I see towing capacity.. I see big red wagon, with a wheel at each corner (hay wagon), that is towing capacity. Just like your little red wagon it had very little weight on the handle (tongue)...

Cargo capacity is how much you can load in your RV...

Cargo capacity on your vehicle, determined by the drivers door jamb sticker, is how much weight you can add to your vehicle. This includes passengers, any added truck enhancements (covers hitch, steps etc) and the weight of the tongue of your fully loaded RV.

There is a huge difference and in most cases towing capacity is the least important number as the cargo capacity of your vehicle will be typically reached long before your towing capacity is reached.

The mfg will publish limits for different uses...pulling a hay wagon with almost zero added weight to the vehicle is vastly different than pulling a loaded RV with 12% to 25% of it's weight added to the vehicle. They publish these "ratings" for a reason, some legal im sure, but mainly for safety issues. Axles etc can only carry so much weight.

Please chime in if my perception of these are incorrect. I await the intelligent posts....and the no so

Happy Camping everyone.

[Rustic Eagle]

Originally Posted by wags999

snip....... cargo capacity of your vehicle will be typically reached long before your towing capacity is reached.....snip

I would agree.

Bob

[GrumpyDad]

Totally agree, especially for half tons, you run out of payload long before you hit your tow ratings. Especially with a crew cab truck that has four people in it, a generator and firewood in the bed.
My family, firewood, generator and bicycles add 900 lbs to my truck before I even attach the trailer, and that's ankther 800lbs tongue weight or so.

[Magnolia Tom]

You’re right. That’s how a Toyota Tundra can “tow” the space shuttle

[Camper_bob]

A common misconception, and one I fell victim to when I bought our first trailer. I thought "Towing capacity" was everything. And really, I should've known better.

It turned out that most of the time I wasn't over my cargo capacity anyway, but I was right up against it, and I'm sure there was a time or two I was over. And the overall towing experience, and all the worrying I did after I found out greatly detracted from what should have been a very fun and exciting time.

Went to the school of hard knocks, learned the truth, took a little bath on a trade-in for a bigger truck. Good news was I slept A LOT better after; I got enough truck to never have to worry about it again. Worst news is that DW still reminds me of the oversight every chance she gets, and that was almost 5 years ago.

[2edgesword]

In my search for a tow vehicle I found that payload or cargo capacity in many cases turned out to be the limiting factor. I'd find a vehicle with a nice max. towing number but the payload numbers meant that if you towed a trailer close to the maximum and had to carry passengers you were close to exceeding the maximum payload. The actual numbers for a particular 1/2 ton truck...

Maximum trailer weight: 9,140
Maximum payload: 1,610
Tongue weight (12.5% of Max. Trailer weight): 1,142
Four passengers (4x150): 600

Even with an otherwise empty truck and considering 12.5% of the max. trailer weight as your tongue weight you'd be over the payload limit simply by carrying four adult passengers.

If you knocked the trailer weight down to 8,000 lbs (1,000 lbs tongue weight) you're just barely under the payload limit if you carry four passengers and no gear.

[Camper_bob]

Also, I have been chastised on this forum for generalizing 1/2T vehicles as being incapable in many cases. For the record, I don't care one iota what class of truck it is, numbers are numbers. Period.

Get the numbers, scale the rig, compare the numbers. It's really that simple regardless of what badge is on the fender.

And sometimes being JUST under the max capacities just isn't good enough. Sometimes it is for some users. Again though, numbers do not lie.

[GrumpyDad]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

Also, I have been chastised on this forum for generalizing 1/2T vehicles as being incapable in many cases. For the record, I don't care one iota what class of truck it is, numbers are numbers. Period.

Get the numbers, scale the rig, compare the numbers. It's really that simple regardless of what badge is on the fender.

And sometimes being JUST under the max capacities just isn't good enough. Sometimes it is for some users. Again though, numbers do not lie.

Yeah, modern half tons trucks are amazing machines, and have capabilities that would make most 3/4 tons from even a short time ago blush, BUT, like anything, it has limits and like anything, when near those limits, you need to be very careful to understand what you are doing and to set things up well.

I've towed reasonably heavy with a few different half tons, and the biggest drawback for me has been the fact that it takes more time and effort and messing around to make everything feel right, whereas the same trailer behind a 3/4 ton truck is much more forgiving.

An educated person, who takes their time, should be able to safely tow right up to max rating with any vehicle. However, that description doesn't work for everyone.

[RogerR]

Something I did not see in this thread is wind resistance. A tow vehicle that can pull a pop-up may not pull a standard trailer simply due to wind resistance. A standard trailer can work for a truck that cannot pull a much taller 5th wheel. My Jeep instruction book actually talks about wind load as a part of the tow capacity calculation.

Not sure I have ever seen this factor as a major item to include in what you can/should tow.

[Camper_bob]

Originally Posted by GrumpyDad

Yeah, modern half tons trucks are amazing machines, and have capabilities that would make most 3/4 tons from even a short time ago blush, BUT, like anything, it has limits and like anything, when near those limits, you need to be very careful to understand what you are doing and to set things up well.

I've towed reasonably heavy with a few different half tons, and the biggest drawback for me has been the fact that it takes more time and effort and messing around to make everything feel right, whereas the same trailer behind a 3/4 ton truck is much more forgiving.

An educated person, who takes their time, should be able to safely tow right up to max rating with any vehicle. However, that description doesn't work for everyone.

Yup, exactly. If I'm somewhere flat, and never tow over 55mph because of towing speed regulations, my 1/2T GMC would probably have been fine. But I'm out here in TX where EVERYTHING is a LONG way away, and towing at 55 could get you killed in some places. We have extreme heat, hills, bad roads, etc... I also had ambitions of going cross-country, and our family was growing. So, for MY situation at the time, a 3/4T suddenly became a requirement. I started to look at 1/2T that could do the job, and the only ones that could make the numbers at the time simply couldn't be found. But I could find dozens of 3/4T trucks in all manner of configuration, color, option package, etc. So really the choice was simple. Not quite so simple any more as 1/2T class trucks are becoming more capable, and most importantly, more plentiful.

Originally Posted by RogerR

Something I did not see in this thread is wind resistance. A tow vehicle that can pull a pop-up may not pull a standard trailer simply due to wind resistance. A standard trailer can work for a truck that cannot pull a much taller 5th wheel. My Jeep instruction book actually talks about wind load as a part of the tow capacity calculation.

Not sure I have ever seen this factor as a major item to include in what you can/should tow.

In my experience, wind resistance is only mentioned in the mid-size SUV and small truck segments. I've never seen a published wind resistance recommendation on a full-size truck. But you're absolutely right about the differences. Towing 9,000 lbs of bricks on a tandem axle flat-bed is a completely different ball game than towing the same weight in a travel trailer.

[Colorado]

Originally Posted by RogerR

Something I did not see in this thread is wind resistance. A tow vehicle that can pull a pop-up may not pull a standard trailer simply due to wind resistance. A standard trailer can work for a truck that cannot pull a much taller 5th wheel. My Jeep instruction book actually talks about wind load as a part of the tow capacity calculation.

Not sure I have ever seen this factor as a major item to include in what you can/should tow.

I agree completely, I've read posts here about towing a 5er with a 1/2T and wind resistance is NEVER taken into consideration. Pulling a 10K 5er is a different animal than pulling a 10K # pop-up. On that thought, another point rarely taken into consideration is elevation, a flatlander pulling near capacity will be in for a rude awakening pulling that weight at 9000' or above. I'm constantly reading people giving advice without getting clarification on ALL the OP's variables...just because you can doesn't mean everyone can. And just because you can doesn't mean you should...

[nighthawk87]

I say this time and time again. The safest bet for newbies is to go by this simple rule for COMFORTABLE towing:

Up to 5000lbs - 1/2T
5000-10000 - 3/4T
10000-15000- 1T Dually
15000+ - F450 Dually

You can do it with less but you’ll likely not be comfortable or need to be very knowledgeable about equipping that truck correctly.

[Dustdevil]

Yep. The numbers are the numbers. GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) is the weight your tow vehicle can have on its own chassis. This includes the weight of everything in or on the vehicle, including fuel and people. GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) is that loaded tow vehicle and anything it is towing, including water, waste water, toys, and both vehicles with people. Everything INCLUDING the kitchen sink. The tongue weight of the trailer ought to be somewhere around 15% of total loaded trailer weight, and it is another load to add to Gross Vehicle Weight actual when you compare it to Gross Vehicle Weight RATING. This is where many 1/2 ton trucks run into trouble.

Manufacturers now rate utility vehicles (tow vehicles) with recommended ratings in actual pounds. Didn't used to be that way. We used to tow an 18 foot Prowler trailer with a 1969 half ton Chevy pickup with a 307 V8 and 3-speed-on-the-tree transmission (it really was a passenger car transmission). It usually had 3 or 4 dirt bikes in the bed, and the trailer was usually overloaded with gear, food, ice chests, full of propane and water, etc. But it pulled it. You just couldn't go fast. Did a marginal job of stopping it. These are the practices most manufacturers are trying to curtail by putting everything into numbers. I never wrecked that old rig, but I did avoid a few that could have been chalked up to the load being likely a bit much for that tow rig. And I was really good at handling that thing. Just imagine that same rig in the hands of a first-timer who didn't know his butt from a sewer outlet.

So, I have heard a number of horror stories about someone getting in a wreck with their rig, and having the law come down on them for being overloaded, assuming the load was a factor in the crash. I've also heard of insurance companies denying coverage, or threatening to do such, because the owner had his rig exceeding either the GVWR or GCWR, or not having the proper license class to be driving such a heavy or long vehicle. Doesn't necessarily happen every time, but you could be in some pretty hot water if you wreck your unit, even if you all walk away from the crash with just a few bumps.

What it all comes down to is that it's the owner's personal responsibility to verify that they are not exceeding any of their rig's weight limits, that he or she has the proper class of license (you may need to obtain a non-commercial Class A or B license in many states, depending upon total rig weight or length), proper equipment that has a proper setup (tire ratings, wheel ratings, weight distributing hitch set up correctly, etc) and that you operate your rig safely. Which, in inclement weather, might mean slowing down BELOW the speed limits to shorten your stopping distance and give yourself more time to stop or avoid hazards.

As a few anecdotal notes from a guy who started towing his dad's trailer at 15 years of age: 1) Wind does make a difference. they don't usually quantify it, but it may mean you have to slow down. Wind changes direction, and a headwind makes it harder to go. A tailwind makes it much harder to stop, especially if you are moving downhill. Adjust your right foot, your speed, and your following distance accordingly. 2) Backing up a trailer efficiently and accurately is a learned skill. I learned to be really good at it when I was 15, as we visited the desert nearly every other weekend. Our 18 ft trailer fit in the driveway, but only if we parked it within about an inch of the eaves over the garage door, with the weight distributing hitch disconnected, and within about an inch of the side edge of the driveway. I was the trailer backing KING! 3) GVWR and GCWR are not only ratings based on what the tow vehicle will PULL. But what it will also STOP. And what it will stop under control, not in full-panic mode, tires locked up, squealing, sliding sideways, jackknifed, blue smoke everywhere, eyes the size of basketballs, with the wife and kids screaming in horror with a white-knuckle grip on anything solid. It's a heavy vehicle, and even with all the brakes working perfectly, it requires far more energy to stop your loaded rig than the typical passenger car or unloaded pickup. And finally 4) I noticed a significant improvement in towing our old toy hauler with our pickup that was set up to do that, than when I towed it for several years with our Suburban. The Suburban had the tow package, was the 3/4 ton 4X4 and all the high weight ratings (for a Suburban), but it didn't hold a candle to the pickup. The wheelbases were different, among a few other odds and ends. But the biggest difference of all was the distance between the rear axle and the trailer hitch slide-in. It was only about a foot or so, but the pickup axle was that 12 inches closer, and it made all the difference in the world with stability. It was quite literally a joy to drive, compared to any other tow vehicle I had driven to that point. And I had been towing trailers of one sort or another by then for probably 31 years. Passing semi rigs didn't even faze it one iota, whereas the same thing with the Suburban took significant concentration to keep the thing in the lane.

Well, that's my 2 cents on towing, and I use the knowledge and experience even today, despite now being the main crash test dummy in a Super C motorhome towing a Jeep, instead of a pickup hauling a trailer of 5er.

[vcbice]

Originally Posted by nighthawk87

I say this time and time again. The safest bet for newbies is to go by this simple rule for COMFORTABLE towing:

Up to 5000lbs - 1/2T
5000-10000 - 3/4T
10000-15000- 1T Dually
15000+ - F450 Dually

You can do it with less but you’ll likely not be comfortable or need to be very knowledgeable about equipping that truck correctly.

That means I have been in serious trouble for decades

Check the door sticker for YOUR truck. Every one is different. Every option changes the rating a bit, sometimes a LOT. My current 3/4T truck has less capacity than several other versions of the same model. My old Tundra had far more capacity than most other models of the same year. Some 1/2T trucks have as much or more capacity than some 3/4T trucks. Look at a mfg chart and see all the different load ratings for various options.

I do NOT recommend exceeeding what is on the door sticker.

IMHO the weight balance in the trailer is the MOST important part of towing, no matther how big or small the towing vehicle is.

[Atlee]

I suppose that's good for rank amateurs, but there is a lot of room for maneuvering. What any person who is planning on towing needs to do is learn. Learn what they have, what it's capabilities are. And know what the requirements of the trailer they are planning to pull are.

For me, I have a F150 1/2 ton, but it has a HD package. I have a cargo capacity of 2286#. More than some 3/4 tons, especially those with a diesel engine.

Originally Posted by nighthawk87

I say this time and time again. The safest bet for newbies is to go by this simple rule for COMFORTABLE towing:

Up to 5000lbs - 1/2T
5000-10000 - 3/4T
10000-15000- 1T Dually
15000+ - F450 Dually

You can do it with less but you’ll likely not be comfortable or need to be very knowledgeable about equipping that truck correctly.

[nighthawk87]

Originally Posted by Atlee

I suppose that's good for rank amateurs, but there is a lot of room for maneuvering. What any person who is planning on towing needs to do is learn. Learn what they have, what it's capabilities are. And know what the requirements of the trailer they are planning to pull are.



For me, I have a F150 1/2 ton, but it has a HD package. I have a cargo capacity of 2286#. More than some 3/4 tons, especially those with a diesel engine.

How much and what kind of trailer do you tow? I don’t care if a 1/2T has a payload of 3000 lbs. it’s still a 1/2T. I take a 3/4T with a 1700lb payload any day over that to tow. Realize that a 1/2T Payload is limited by its actual capability while a 3/4 is not. It’s limited by an arbitrary 10k gvwr.

Also a heavier tow vehicle will be more stable towing, especially when towing heavy because the trailer will likely exceed the weight of you TV.

You f150 is really light which is why you payload is good. I had an 2016 f150 crew with the HDPP as well. Towed my 7500lb TT ok but not what I’d say is comfortable. Got a 3/4 and it’s night and day. Try a 3.4 towing your rig and then let’s have an honest conv.

[CampNow]

Originally Posted by Atlee

. . . I have a F150 1/2 ton, but it has a HD package. I have a cargo capacity of 2286#. More than some 3/4 tons, especially those with a diesel engine.

IMO, high payload and tow capacity ratings all by themselves do not necessarily guarantee the most stable, comfortable tow experience.

Many ratings being discussed here. However, the one rating or number that hasn't been mentioned thus far is the trailer to tow vehicle (TV) weight ratio. IMO, this ratio is one of the prime determinants of a stable, comfortable tow experience.

Say Ford was able to manufacture a 1/2-ton truck out of aluminum (frame included) and was able to reduce the truck's weight down to 3,500 lbs. while "mechanically" maintaining a payload rating of 2,286 lbs. and a tow capacity of 10,500 lbs. How stable or comfortable do you think this 3,500 lb. truck would be towing a trailer that weighed 10,500 lbs? The end result, a 3 to 1 trailer to TV weight ratio . . . and probably a prime candidate for the 'tail-wagging-the-dog', J.D. Power Award.

In contrast, let's tow this same 10,500 lb. trailer with an all-steel, 3/4-ton (gas) truck that weighs 7,000 lbs. (with the same 2,286 lb. payload and 10,500 lb. tow capacity ratings). We now have a dramatically lower 1.5 to 1 trailer to TV weight ratio.

All other things being equal, a heavier truck will tow the same weight trailer more comfortably, in a more stable (and dare I say, safer) fashion, than a lighter truck. Just simple physics at work.

[Atlee]

I have a 2014 F150 w/ HDPP and 8 ft box and Supercab. I pull a 6500# GVWR 23RB. I'm almost at the end of a near 2 month 8,000 mile cruise to the Rockies and the high plains, including sw Colorado, Utah, Idaho, Grand Tetons, Yellowstone, Montana, and the Black Hills. At no time have I felt overwhelmed.

Of course, my 2014 all steel F150 is a little heavier than your old 2016 aluminum model.

Originally Posted by nighthawk87

How much and what kind of trailer do you tow? I don’t care if a 1/2T has a payload of 3000 lbs. it’s still a 1/2T. I take a 3/4T with a 1700lb payload any day over that to tow. Realize that a 1/2T Payload is limited by its actual capability while a 3/4 is not. It’s limited by an arbitrary 10k gvwr.

Also a heavier tow vehicle will be more stable towing, especially when towing heavy because the trailer will likely exceed the weight of you TV.

You f150 is really light which is why you payload is good. I had an 2016 f150 crew with the HDPP as well. Towed my 7500lb TT ok but not what I’d say is comfortable. Got a 3/4 and it’s night and day. Try a 3.4 towing your rig and then let’s have an honest conv.

[Atlee]

But I'm not crazy enough to pull a 10.5k trailer with a half ton.

However, my all steel HDPP 1/2 ton pulls a 6500# trailer just fine. Of course, if I would pull that same 6500# trailer with an all steel F450, I wouldn't know it was there.

Originally Posted by CampNow

IMO, high payload and tow capacity ratings all by themselves do not necessarily guarantee the most stable, comfortable tow experience.

Many ratings being discussed here. However, the one rating or number that hasn't been mentioned thus far is the trailer to tow vehicle (TV) weight ratio. IMO, this ratio is one of the prime determinants of a stable, comfortable tow experience.

Say Ford was able to manufacture a 1/2-ton truck out of aluminum (frame included) and was able to reduce the truck's weight down to 3,500 lbs. while "mechanically" maintaining a payload rating of 2,286 lbs. and a tow capacity of 10,500 lbs. How stable or comfortable do you think this 3,500 lb. truck would be towing a trailer that weighed 10,500 lbs? The end result, a 3 to 1 trailer to TV weight ratio . . . and probably a prime candidate for the 'tail-wagging-the-dog', J.D. Power Award.

In contrast, let's tow this same 10,500 lb. trailer with an all-steel, 3/4-ton (gas) truck that weighs 7,000 lbs. (with the same 2,286 lb. payload and 10,500 lb. tow capacity ratings). We now have a dramatically lower 1.5 to 1 trailer to TV weight ratio.

All other things being equal, a heavier truck will tow the same weight trailer more comfortably, in a more stable (and dare I say, safer) fashion, than a lighter truck. Just simple physics at work.

[vcbice]

Originally Posted by CampNow

All other things being equal, a heavier truck will tow the same weight trailer more comfortably, in a more stable (and dare I say, safer) fashion, than a lighter truck. Just simple physics at work.

So I guess you tow your trailer with a Class8 HDT truck then.