What type of Anti-Freeze -50F or -100F

[Edena]

Hi,

I'm new to RV-ing and I'm looking at winterizing my FW with the recommended method air blower + AntiFreeze in the lines.

Looking to buy AF, I found out that there are multiple types. The commonly recommended is propylene glycol to avoid taste and smell in the lines (in opposition to ethanol based).

The next question is about the temperature capability: -50F or -100F.
To be noted that -50F AF notice indicates that it solidifies at ~12F.
Some users report expansion of the AF still damaging their lines or faucets.

What is this forum recommendation?

[stateboy]

I have not seen -100° F antifreeze solution for sale where I live in SW Michigan. I'll be curious where that's located short of purchasing it online. I'm going to follow the answers you are seeking here.

[bluie5]

I’ve never seen -100* RV AF before here in Wisconsin. I just buy the stuff at Walmart and only use it in the traps. I blow all the water out of the lines and have never had a problem with broken lines when spring comes.

[Packerbacker_TX]

I'm a year into my new 5th wheel out here in the Pacific NW and last winter I was presented with this task. Camping World offered to "winterize" my 5'r for $120. I believe that consisted of draining some water and pouring $15 worth of anti-freeze down the drains. I'd read somewhere that you could simply blow the lines out with an air hose adapter and air pump. This made sense to me - hook up air pump, add pressure to the line and open the faucets until all the water goes down the drain. Then drain the water from the pipe and all you have left is Pex and PVC with nothing but air in the lines. It dropped down to freezing a few times and I had no problems. I'm starting to wonder why make the effort to adding anti-freeze in the lines if there's nothing to freeze in the first place?

Side note: We've got a tank-less water heater (vs. tank), so nothing to worry about there. Our rig also has an enclosed underbelly and it's rated for "seasonal" weather.

[Kim Gass]

Originally Posted by Packerbacker_TX

I'm a year into my new 5th wheel out here in the Pacific NW and last winter I was presented with this task. Camping World offered to "winterize" my 5'r for $120. I believe that consisted of draining some water and pouring $15 worth of anti-freeze down the drains. I'd read somewhere that you could simply blow the lines out with an air hose adapter and air pump. This made sense to me - hook up air pump, add pressure to the line and open the faucets until all the water goes down the drain. Then drain the water from the pipe and all you have left is Pex and PVC with nothing but air in the lines. It dropped down to freezing a few times and I had no problems. I'm starting to wonder why make the effort to adding anti-freeze in the lines if there's nothing to freeze in the first place?

Side note: We've got a tank-less water heater (vs. tank), so nothing to worry about there. Our rig also has an enclosed underbelly and it's rated for "seasonal" weather.

Because there is a little water left in nooks and crannies of valves. Its not so much that the temp drops to a little below freezing for a short time. Its more of an issue when it never gets above zero for three months. You can be sure the cold has reached every nook and cranny then.

We have already had several nights below freezing and have not winterized. Temps rebound to 50 during the day..

[RogerR]

-100 seems extreme.

Watch out for antifreeze that has alcohol in it as evaporation will reduce it's effectiveness. All glycol types will not evaporate so they continue to work.

What I do is:

Drain what will come out.

Blow out at 40 psi turning faucets inside and out, don't forget the shower and toilet!!!

Run some pink antifreeze through the system to catch all the water left over.

Blow it out again.

Add some pink to sink and shower drain traps and the toilet.

Wait for spring to come again.

[Murff]

FYI-

A friend who works in the RV industry told me years ago that the -50 degree antifeeze can be mixed 50-50 with water and still be good down to -25 degrees.

Saves a few $$$!

Murff

[oldmanAZ]

Originally Posted by Edena

snip...
To be noted that -50F AF notice indicates that it solidifies at ~12F.
Some users report expansion of the AF still damaging their lines or faucets.

What is this forum recommendation?

This is the first I'VE heard about RV antifreeze expanding when freezing. People use RV antifreeze because it isn't supposed to expand when it freezes. I would think that if it's true, it would be all over the RV sites, including this one.

[Sundancer330]

RV antifreeze is propylene glycol, and will not freeze solid. It will freeze, but only to the consistency of a slushy. Generally RV Antifreeze is good to about -20 to -50 at full strength depending on the brand, but the more water that is mixed with it the higher the freeze temperature will be

[Balibe]

Originally Posted by Edena

Hi,

I'm new to RV-ing and I'm looking at winterizing my FW with the recommended method air blower + AntiFreeze in the lines.

Looking to buy AF, I found out that there are multiple types. The commonly recommended is propylene glycol to avoid taste and smell in the lines (in opposition to ethanol based).

The next question is about the temperature capability: -50F or -100F.
To be noted that -50F AF notice indicates that it solidifies at ~12F.
Some users report expansion of the AF still damaging their lines or faucets.

What is this forum recommendation?

Just got an rv this spring, so don't know much about rv antifreeze yet. After reading your post I did some research as I need to winterize soon.

I deal with glycol in hvac systems. We don't have to deal with expansion as the fluid is usually moving thru the system and has an expansion tank. So never thought of expansion causing issues in an rv, but appears it can.

Below is a chart from Dowfrost RV Antifreeze. Each manufacture should have their own charts for their product. It lists the freeze and burst protection by volume, which I believe is what you refer to as expansion damaging lines or faucets.

If I understand the chart correctly, the expansion or burst protection has to do with the mixture of water to antifreeze. May also pertain to the quality of the antifreeze product.

By the Dowfrost chart, if you had a mixture of 36% antifreeze to water the freeze protection would be to 0°F and the the expansion/burst protection would be to -40°F to -60°F.

Dowfrost states freeze protection below -60°F with a burst protection of -100°F for their product. So a 60% mixture should be close to -100°F of expansion/burst protection.

[jimp]

I usually leave the facets open/cracked so that any freezing/expansion that may occur will just push some air out of the lines. I've always done the blow out method and AF down all the p traps, but going to go with AF pumped thru the lines on our new TT. Lost a toilet valve on the old Class C so maybe I will get lucky with the new TT.

[Jagiven]

The antifreeze will gel up when it gets cold, and looks a lot like a Slushy, it has no strength like regular water. The temperature noted on the container is for pure antifreeze that has no added water. Any residual water in the lines reduces the freeze protection.

I have been using -50oF antifreeze. Where I store my TT, the typical low temp gets down to -30oF to -40oF. Because I am getting very close to the -50 mark, I blow out the lines to remove most of the water, to ensure the maximum protection. As noted above, any water mixed in the antifreeze will reduce your level of protection.

If I lived somewhere that got closer to the -50oF mark, I would choose an RV antifreeze with more protection.

[Sundancer330]

Originally Posted by Jagiven

The antifreeze will gel up when it gets cold, and looks a lot like a Slushy, it has no strength like regular water. The temperature noted on the container is for pure antifreeze that has no added water. Any residual water in the lines reduces the freeze protection.

I have been using -50oF antifreeze. Where I store my TT, the typical low temp gets down to -30oF to -40oF. Because I am getting very close to the -50 mark, I blow out the lines to remove most of the water, to ensure the maximum protection. As noted above, any water mixed in the antifreeze will reduce your level of protection.

If I lived somewhere that got closer to the -50oF mark, I would choose an RV antifreeze with more protection.

You must be talking wind chills which does not factor into these ratings. Not to many places ever see -30 to -40

[RogerR]

Prior comment that they can dilute antifreeze.

RV antifreeze is cheap, about $3 a gallon. My smaller trailer only needs about 1 1/2 gallon to get nice pink flow out of faucets, shower and toilet plus some to pour into sink, shower and toilet.

Just not enough savings to dilute. Plus my reason for using pink rv antifreeze is to dilute anything that a blowout might miss, condensate, etc.

The cost of a line or valve compared to antifreeze makes it worth it to both blow, pink it and blow again.

I also leave to valves open as previously mentioned. Condensation froze the exterior shower valve, what a mess to fix!

[Jagiven]

Originally Posted by Sundancer330

You must be talking wind chills which does not factor into these ratings. Not to many places ever see -30 to -40

Oh, I wish, no those are actual temperatures! Last winter I went up to my parent's place which is just down the road from where I store the TT. When I got up, it was -39oF actual temperature. The truck was stiff, that day.

You have to come to the Ice Box of America. Coldest temperature on record in the state is -60oF recorded in Feb 1996. That particular day it was -32oF at my house in the Twin Cities, and the record low is -34oF.

[jimp]

I would think windchill factor does play into whether something will freeze or not even with the pink stuff. I had a water pipe freeze & burst on my house years ago. Pipe was located along the foundation wall just below the sill plate, and there was a very slight gap where the north wind would blow thru. Just happened to get down to around 0* that night and the wind was just a 10 mph or so IIRC. Happened on 12/23 with family coming in for xmas on the 25th. Plumber charged me $50 to do the repair back then. LOL.

[Sundancer330]

Originally Posted by jimp

I would think windchill factor does play into whether something will freeze or not even with the pink stuff. I had a water pipe freeze & burst on my house years ago. Pipe was located along the foundation wall just below the sill plate, and there was a very slight gap where the north wind would blow thru. Just happened to get down to around 0* that night and the wind was just a 10 mph or so IIRC. Happened on 12/23 with family coming in for xmas on the 25th. Plumber charged me $50 to do the repair back then. LOL.

The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to more quickly cool the object to cool to the current air temperature. Object will NOT cool below the actual air temperature.

[bankr63]

Sundancer, you need to move to Canada; we regularly get down that low several times each winter. Last year we had a full week stretch of deep freeze; killed my car battery but no problems with the trailer come spring.

Antifreeze itself does not expand when it freezes. Water is actually the only common substance that expands when it freezes (generally a solidification or crystallization phase change), almost every other substance known will shrink. I say almost; my chemistry teacher taught it was the only one, but there are probably other exceptions).
If there is water mixed in, the water will still expand, but this process is somewhat offset by the contraction of the glycol as it solidifies. Too much water in the mix, and the pipe can still burst.

Note that leaving faucets open isn't much protection as the surface exposed to air will often freeze first creating a plug. it is the pressure behind that then cracks the pipe.

[01tundra]

Can anyone make sense of this?

https://www.jamestowndistributors.co....do?docId=1144


The burst point of an antifreeze is the temperature at which a sealed copper pipe filled with the undiluted product will burst. Burst points are a standard created by the plumbing industry in the 1930s to indicate the relative strength of antifreeze. They have since become synonymous with the name of antifreeze products used for winter storage. Burst points help consumers choose the proper product based on the lowest expected temperatures for their specific area.

A freeze point is the temperature at which ice crystals begin to form in the undiluted product. Freeze points are the measurements given when using refractometers and hydrometers. Note: most refractometers provide readings on both a PG and an EG scale, so it is important to use the PG reading when testing this product. Hydrometers are either made to provide PG or EG readings. It is critical to test this product with a hydrometer specifically designed to provide PG readings. Most hydrometers are purchased at auto supply stores and are designed for use with EG, so they cannot be used to test PG antifreeze. Keep in mind that it is normal to see readings that may vary by several degrees from the product's stated freeze point based on ambient temperature or the age of the product. For example, the freeze point of the -50°F product is +12°F, but it is not unusual to see readings in a range of +12°F to +16°F. Shake PG antifreeze well before testing as the heavier PG component may have settled toward the bottom.

Because the stored engine or water system is not in use, preventing ice crystals is not necessary, and to do so would require the use of a more expensive product with a higher PG content. As an example, the -50°F antifreeze has a freeze point of +12°F while the -100°F antifreeze has a freeze point of -60°F.

However, as the temperature drops the solution begins to solidify and expand, it puts pressure on pipes that can lead to damage. This is why it is important to select an antifreeze that will provide burst protection appropriate for a specific region's lowest anticipated temperatures. Products providing lower burst point temperatures contain higher concentrations of PG and are thus more expensive, but they will provide the protection needed in the event of extreme weather.

[Sundancer330]

I don't need any schooling on antifreeze, if the label says -50 that works, I use air so I had no reason to read it, it looked pretty long winded.