eBike Battery Causes Trailer Fire

[prestonwattsjr]

The main problem with standard Lithium ion and LiPo(Lithium ion polymer) is that when a short-circuit occurs there is a runaway thermal reaction that will cause it to ignite, while lead acid and LiFePo4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) do not. While they are still flammable, they will not ignite themselves in response to an internal or external short circuit or overcharging like a standard lithium cell will.

[hankstone]

The scary thing about LIPO fires, you have to smother it with sand or maybe dirt to get it out, and I think it would reignite if you let oxygen get to it again. Crazy stuff!

Originally Posted by TxLoser

I don’t know if the bike batteries are removable, but if f so, pull them when traveling and store in a fire resistant battery bag. My guess is someone sells a battery bag for this purpose. If it starts smoking, toss that thing as far as you can. At work we keep a big battery bag on the plane that can fit a laptop in case of an issue. Lipo fire on a plane could end up news worthy.

I race rc cars and my batteries scare me. I’ve seen a lipo fire and it’s not pretty. The smoke on its own is crazy. When not in use, I’ll keep mine in an open ammo can(so it’s not a bomb) in my garage on the floor away from everything. This is after discharging to a storage level. With a bicycle keeping them at a storage voltage would be tough. I’ve got a drone, and those batteries have a smart feature that discharges to storage level from within over time. I don’t know how. PFM I guess.

[pconroy]

Just last in line, I did a little Googling last week - the US does have Lithium reserves. It's just more costly to extract and refine than Australia or Chile for example.


Nor can we do it without environmental impacts that we usually don't accept.


Whether it's enough to fulfill the demand, I don't know.
But the US does have Lithium.

[DocBrown]

Many things we use everyday are dangerous and can cause fires. But we're so used to handing them that they really are not that dangerous anymore.

That said, many people simply don't know how to handle Li-Ion batteries and proper charging, and without seeing an investigation report, we generally are going on speculation as to the exact cause of the fire. Was the battery being charged without enough air around it (or the charger) to keep it cool? Was the case cracked or had it been dropped at some point? Did the charger fail to stop charging when the battery was fully charged? Those are all common causes of Li-Ion ebike battery fires. How good is the battery quality? I suspect that those $800 ebikes sold online only, do not have nearly as good of quality battery as a $2800+ bike.The battery alone on the better bikes is $600+.

In the case of ebike batteries, these are going to be some of the largest Li-Ion batteries most people will be charging in their homes or RVs, and they are getting very common. Can the outlet being used handle the draw? I've found through experience (was not able to actually measure the outlet's current draw) that some places do not have good electrical.

At home our ebike battery chargers get very warm, but never hot. We stayed at a park model RV on private land for a weekend this summer. It was a really isolated place and a fairly new unit that had been put in a new spot about 18 months ago. But our chargers got really hot. I kept a close eye on them, checking them every 15 minutes or so. And many campgrounds aren't going to be any better, not to mention the questionable construction and wiring of many RV units.

https://www.ionenergy.co/resources/b...read%20damage.

https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/ca...0to%20explode.

[TxLoser]

Originally Posted by hankstone

The scary thing about LIPO fires, you have to smother it with sand or maybe dirt to get it out, and I think it would reignite if you let oxygen get to it again. Crazy stuff!

That’s true. No amount of water will put that out.

Here’s someone’s toy car after a standard fire extinguisher was unloaded on it. Still going. Just a small 4s 6500 battery.

[pconroy]

Lead acid batteries are full of sulfuric acid and vent explosive, flammable hydrogen gas. Like it was said - we're just used to the dangers and have ways to lower the risk.


Lithiums are new. It'll take a while before things stabilize. But it's good to remember, we all need to learn about the new batteries. They're NOT like the good ol' lead acid ones. We need to learn new tricks.

[JFlightRisk]

So....along this line. Are fire engines going electric too?? Hmm?

[ARoamer]

Originally Posted by TxLoser

Just a small 4s 6500 battery.

That is exactly why lithium batteries are so popular. Storing that amount of energy in li-po (lithium polymer) batteries is actually quite amazing.

That "small" 6500mA 4 cell battery, depending on it's discharge "C" rating could output 650 AMPS or more.
(the C rating signifies the maximum continuous output)
Examples-
1500mah battery x 60C (C Rating) = 90,000mA = 90 Amps maximum continuous output.
5000mah battery x 50C =25,0000mA =250 Amps
6500mah battery x 100C =650,000mA = 650 Amps.

[TxLoser]

This was a 120c. Lots of juice.

[Yooper906]

Originally Posted by pconroy

Just last in line, I did a little Googling last week - the US does have Lithium reserves. It's just more costly to extract and refine than Australia or Chile for example.


Nor can we do it without environmental impacts that we usually don't accept.


Whether it's enough to fulfill the demand, I don't know.
But the US does have Lithium.

I've read we have only one lithium mine, and that's in Nevada. I've also read that the lithium ore is shipped to China for processing. True? Don't know. Pretty hard to put faith in anything we read now.

[ARoamer]

Originally Posted by TxLoser

This was a 120c. Lots of juice.

780 Amps in a box 5.47*1.85*1.46 inch that weighs about 1#.
=10,920 watts at 14v.
= energy equivalent about 1/3 gallon of gasoline!

[ARoamer]

Originally Posted by Yooper906

I've read we have only one lithium mine, and that's in Nevada. I've also read that the lithium ore is shipped to China for processing. True? Don't know. Pretty hard to put faith in anything we read now.

Proposed Thacker Pass Lithium mine in NV-

"Lithium Carbonate is exported to Asia where it is processed into cathodes for batteries. Zawadzki says a mine of this scale could allow similar capabilities."Having a resource here gives us options to make those cathodes in the United States and maybe right here in Nevada," Zawadzki said."

https://www.2news.com/nevada-mine-co...879bb6172.html

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by prestonwattsjr

Generally speaking the house batteries in RVs are either lead-acid (flooded, sealed, gel, or AGM) or LiFePO4, any of which are about as safe as they come (with the minor caveat that FLAs must be vented to the outside). Most electric car batteries are standard Li-Ion which, while not nearly as bad as the LiPo packs used in phones and the RC world, are still quite volatile when something goes wrong. Some actually DO use LiPo packs (prismatic cells) instead which is somewhat frightening. The solid state lithium cells that you're talking about are not currently in any electric cars, and from what I'm currently seeing won't be until at least 2025. Tesla switched to LiFePO4 on their standard-range models last year, and some other manufacturers are planning to follow suit in the next couple of years, which might be part of the confusion. TL;DR you're almost exactly backwards here.






That RC helicopter uses a LiPo battery, not a LiFePO4. These are different chemistries on opposite ends of the safety spectrum.






The electrolyte in Li-Ion, LiPo, LiFePO4 and virtually any other battery are all liquid, but generally contained in some sort of matrix (such as paper, fiberglass, gel or carbon powder) rather than just acid in a box like flooded lead acids are. That's part of why the solid state electrolytes Bill is fixated on are such a big deal.

I guess Toyota has prototypes running around the last few years, they were used in commercials for the Olympics and they have been driving it all over the country

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by JFlightRisk

So....along this line. Are fire engines going electric too?? Hmm?

Funny you should ask!

[craigav]

I wonder if there is a way to make a LIPO battery catch on fire on purpose. That would make for a great fire starter for when having issues lighting a campfire.

[JFlightRisk]

Maybe I've been collecting all those fast-food drink carry trays for nuthin'!

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by JFlightRisk

So....along this line. Are fire engines going electric too?? Hmm?

have not seen one yet... On paper or actually built...

Actually, a good start for many of the arm-chair engineers here - is to see how much energy it takes to pump water up a NFPA certified line at 150PSI for 20 minutes continuous at over 250 Gallons/Min.

Robbbby R could answer... It takes a lot more than what anyone thinks.

[SloPoke]

Originally Posted by craigav

I wonder if there is a way to make a LIPO battery catch on fire on purpose. That would make for a great fire starter for when having issues lighting a campfire.

Based on how long/hard/easy it would take to get hot enough to ignite other materials for a campfire WITH the charging system attached, not a great fire starter compared to matches, lighter or alternative choices...

Our unfortunate experience took more than an hour for my particular battery to bring the "mostly non-flammable" materials to a temperature that would melt hard polymers, insulators and eventually the casing to a point of heavy smoke, high temperature and meltdown of the internals of the battery... It then went into it's own further self destruction after the charger was removed...

@Craigav... I'm not all that interested in re-creating the same experience to see if it would be able to start a campfire... It happened in our garage, with other flammable risks nearby. We were really, REALLY LUCKY, A real Eye opener to say the least!

Still today, I don't dedicate ammo boxes for much other than their designated purpose... with the exception of one we use for charging these batteries. I still have to fly my toys... but more safely now!

[Route 66 Traveler]

Originally Posted by craigav

I wonder if there is a way to make a LIPO battery catch on fire on purpose. That would make for a great fire starter for when having issues lighting a campfire.

Speaking from experience...just touch the red wire to the black wire. Instantaneous welded together. It will burn so hot that the solder connections all melt off in seconds.

The heat and fire is one thing, the green, stinky cloud of smoke can't be healthy either!

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by dynarider

Where did you get that info?

All websites on solid state batteries