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Old 07-08-2016, 01:47 PM   #141
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The last sentence in your post is really really important.

For my part I see here more often than not, hard workers with a family, happy to give thousands and thousands of dollars of hard earned money to this industry and trying to find excuses and reason to excuse these huge company for their lacks of quality and ultimatly lack of respect. Its like peoples have given up on their rights.

It may look like a very small thing but when you buy a 30k rigs and you find in hidden corners plenty of sawdust, tiewrap, elec.wiring insulation piping remnants etc etc is plainly a lack of respect for the consumers. Thats something we can see, imagine what we cant ?

What save their rear end is the camping activity, we are willing to accept a lot for this pleasure and they know that pretty well.

I think im done with most of the defect on my WH. It took me a year and half to fix the various leaks , the marshmellow floor is next on the list, two windows are on order.....hopefully ill be ok after that, thank God I had an excellent dealer, but even my excellent dealer is great mainly because the other sucks so much.....its no different for him, he had to wait over 2 months for 2 stupid windows 1 door and 2 faucet its not fun for them too.

My wildest dream would be to see a quarter of my money paid for my rig to be of bad quality, see like seeing the ink fading until it diseapear from the bill, and to have the pleasure to respond to the company that its the way it is and that is not covered that they should have kept the money sealed in an enveloppe.

That would level the force in a negociation i would say.

have a great season guys ! And dont give up for your right, you deserve a water tight box, water tight plumbing, good slide out mechanism, well laid roof membrane and a solid floor etc etc for your money :-)
That's what we've run into with our current Jayco unit, so many frustrating petty things that add up to me scratching my head wondering what other problems will I run into? I understand the concept of trying to mix trailer weight with quality materials while also being cost effective but at some point these manufacturers have to prioritize important areas in the build process and not skimp on those (roof, trailer frame, etc). I know many comments on here are more on the negative side, however maybe the Thor acquisition is the best thing to happen. Perhaps Jayco's board saw all the things we're complaining about on here and decided to go a different direction. Who knows, we may be praising Thor in a year or two for turning things around for the better!
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Old 07-08-2016, 02:29 PM   #142
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If you feel that you buy a quality product at a good price , and that the service is up to the promises, good for you , but in the real world, we are buying overpriced junk.
Actually, I took the article to say that we are buying UNDERpriced junk. The point being that the race is to build the cheapest unit to sell at the cheapest price.

If more people were willing to pay an Airstream price (was going to say Cadillac price), we would get Airstream/Cadillac quality (it's a metaphor - not saying those are necessarily the best). I know $100k for a trailer sounds like a lot, but if they were much better quality at $125k, would you buy? The companies that make the solid $125k trailers are pushed to the margins or out of business because we all want the flashy $100k trailer with all the great lipstick and eye shadow, and with the all the hidden issues.

We saw this in the auto industry in the 80's with cars that rotted away in 4-5 years and were "unsafe at any speed". The auto industry managed to turn this around through regulation, a focus on quality, and some stiff offshore competition. Lets hope the RV industry can do the same, especially in the absence of any offshore competition to spur them on.
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Old 07-08-2016, 03:20 PM   #143
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Actually, I took the article to say that we are buying UNDERpriced junk. The point being that the race is to build the cheapest unit to sell at the cheapest price.

If more people were willing to pay an Airstream price (was going to say Cadillac price), we would get Airstream/Cadillac quality (it's a metaphor - not saying those are necessarily the best). I know $100k for a trailer sounds like a lot, but if they were much better quality at $125k, would you buy? The companies that make the solid $125k trailers are pushed to the margins or out of business because we all want the flashy $100k trailer with all the great lipstick and eye shadow, and with the all the hidden issues.

We saw this in the auto industry in the 80's with cars that rotted away in 4-5 years and were "unsafe at any speed". The auto industry managed to turn this around through regulation, a focus on quality, and some stiff offshore competition. Lets hope the RV industry can do the same, especially in the absence of any offshore competition to spur them on.
Banker63. Underpriced ! Do you really think that if we would accept to pay 2k more for our trailer that they would care a little more about screwing it properly ? Sorry but I dont think so but maybe I am asking for too much ?

Basically all I want is to have the low quality components installed properly. I dont care to have real leather on the sofa, but I want the arm at the very least on one side installed properly, not at an angle, with enough screw to keep it solidly in place. I dont even ask for both side.

I want the roof membrane installed properly with no wrinkle.
I want the piping pressure tested, I want the TT structure water tight, they have the technology.
I dont want to see split molding happening by overtightened screw, if this happen change them.
I want to see elec receptacle installed straight and level,

I dont want too see all the construction garbage left behind for me to pick up.

You see I am not asking for miracle, I am asking for decent workmanship, and i have spent enough money to expect that. I really dont care for Airstream bling bling :-) Despite what some people say it doesnt cost more to do the job right the first time.

Let them just use the components they are using now but have them installed properly and professionally and we will be in business.no need for 2 or 3 or even 4 years warranty when the job is done properly, extending the warranty is just a way to justify a low quality at delivery
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Old 07-08-2016, 04:48 PM   #144
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Banker63. Underpriced ! Do you really think that if we would accept to pay 2k more for our trailer that they would care a little more about screwing it properly ? Sorry but I dont think so but maybe I am asking for too much ?
Yup, I exactly do. Maybe not you, but the gist of the article is that if we the public want better RV's, we need to stop the race to the bottom, and that takes higher prices for better quality. One of my favorite scenes on "The Guild" is when the boss tots up the cost of business to tell the shop guy that $5.41 per minute is what wasting time costs. So one man for 10 minutes to clean up the unit for delivery is almost $60 on the price. Or save YOU the $60 and leave the sawdust in the corners. It's up to all of us...
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Old 07-08-2016, 05:12 PM   #145
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We're getting what we want. It's kinda similar to airlines -- everyone complains about cramped uncomfortable seats, but when it comes time to vote with their wallet they choose the cheapest option. The tough part with RVs is that with consolidation, there isn't much granularity, so the market cannot really work even if people would be willing to let it -- I can blow $20K on a 25 foot Jay Flight, or $85K for an Airstream. I don't want the fancy Airstream with my two young children, because they're hard on things. I'm basically fine with Jayco-level materials at this price point, but I'd be happy to spend an extra grand if they would spend 2-3 times as long putting it together so that everything lined up well, and another grand if they'd use more durable methods than staples.
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Old 07-08-2016, 05:13 PM   #146
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Yup, I exactly do. Maybe not you, but the gist of the article is that if we the public want better RV's, we need to stop the race to the bottom, and that takes higher prices for better quality. One of my favorite scenes on "The Guild" is when the boss tots up the cost of business to tell the shop guy that $5.41 per minute is what wasting time costs. So one man for 10 minutes to clean up the unit for delivery is almost $60 on the price. Or save YOU the $60 and leave the sawdust in the corners. It's up to all of us...
hey hey i have just noticed that we are neighbour ! Let me be the devils advocate, do you really thing that giving more money to Wynne will insure you better services ? I know for sure that we have tried hard in Quebec just to see more and more money burnt without better result :-)

Its not different when dealing with a company, they always want more money, but the result are rarely there.

So we will end up on a disagreement, money isnt the answer, willingness to deliver a better product isnt always there and thats the main problem. They can get away with their poorly constructed product because we refuse to let them take the full blame, its too easy for us to take part of the blame, I really wonder if the peoples really wants to get a cheap product ? I mean poorly put together ? I will only beleive that they cant do better for the money paid the day that I will know their margin. My boss always found a way to get more from me, as a customer we should ask to get more too, for the same price. Thats the only way , if we dont push them to their limit we will end up getting less and less. We should absolutly stop to find the reason why this why that, thats their job, to find solution not ours.


They are not making us any gift , Thor or Berkshire are not in trouble, hiring 20 mopologist or broomologist is not going to hurt them. If so well, im sure they can find a few useless employees that are hiding in some dark corners behing their desk, they exist everywhere usually they are part of the management team :-)
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Old 07-08-2016, 05:21 PM   #147
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We're getting what we want. It's kinda similar to airlines -- everyone complains about cramped uncomfortable seats, but when it comes time to vote with their wallet they choose the cheapest option. The tough part with RVs is that with consolidation, there isn't much granularity, so the market cannot really work even if people would be willing to let it -- I can blow $20K on a 25 foot Jay Flight, or $85K for an Airstream. I don't want the fancy Airstream with my two young children, because they're hard on things. I'm basically fine with Jayco-level materials at this price point, but I'd be happy to spend an extra grand if they would spend 2-3 times as long putting it together so that everything lined up well, and another grand if they'd use more durable methods than staples.
Rootus, you must be a real good guy and i must be a real nutcase because I truly beleive that they can lined up thing well and put thing together well for the money spent, they prove that they can since some peoples are getting their rig with very little defect at the price set for everybody. Im maybe wrong but im sure that there is a lot and a lot of room to play for them, just look at how much they should pay to rebuild their rig at the RV Dealership.....i dont think thats its about what we want or what we ask for...its about their bottom line period.

Its too common to see company putting less product in the same box to give you the illusion that nothing change....who ask for that ? The customer ? I dont think so...what can we do ? ....stop buying the stupid cereal...the will adjust guaranteed !

Same goes for the Rv, let them rot on their lot and the message will be understood, however if they cant supply the demand...well guess what you will get ;-)
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Old 07-08-2016, 05:39 PM   #148
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On a more lighthearted note, I think Thor wanted Jayflight. America`s top selling travel trailer for more then a decade and the clear leader in all our polls here on JOF for units owned by members.

http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f7...poll-5330.html
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Old 07-08-2016, 05:45 PM   #149
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Now we can say that life's good in a Jaythor ;-)


BTW thanks to all for letting me practice my English i havent received any nasty comment from the grammar and spelling police :-) ...you are a nice gang here at JOF
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Old 07-08-2016, 06:15 PM   #150
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Rootus, you must be a real good guy and i must be a real nutcase because I truly beleive that they can lined up thing well and put thing together well for the money spent, they prove that they can since some peoples are getting their rig with very little defect at the price set for everybody.
Ha! I think we really agree fundamentally.

I try to look at this from a business perspective. I don't know Jayco's margins since they are/were a private company, but Thor is publicly traded (THO) and so we know a bit more. They're running about 15% gross profit, which is healthy, but also includes brands like Airstream which very likely have a much higher profit margin than something like Keystone. In any case, when I extrapolate and think what that means for Jayco's profit margin, and what we know about their assembly time (7 hours I see thrown about, but that's a very general estimate), I conclude that labor isn't a huge factor in the unit cost (kinda like an iPhone -- you could build it in the USA and basically leave the price unchanged, it's not labor costs that drive the decision to manufacture in China).

I guess that's a roundabout way of saying that maybe Jayco does give us a choice. What's the real difference between their different lines? The Jay Flight SLX definitely feels cheaper, so they really cut back on materials, but what about the difference between a Jay Flight and a Whitehawk? Seems like a slightly more upscale style is the bigger differentiator than construction differences. But is a Whitehawk put together better? If I were Jayco, I'd make sure it was -- by paying my assembly works a good wage and then making sure incentives are structured the right way. E.g. don't penalize for warranty claims because that's punitive and is not good for morale, but rather provide an incremental bonus for every unit that goes out of the warranty period without a claim. Also provides golden shackles to keep your employees around longer so they can get the reward from the two-year warranty report on everything they've built.

If the SLX trailers are handily outselling everything else Jayco makes, then it's a race to the bottom. Doesn't mean they can't keep making better RVs for a higher price, but with fewer sales it means the higher cost will be amortized over a smaller customer base so it'll be more significant.
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Old 07-08-2016, 06:59 PM   #151
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Ha! I think we really agree fundamentally.

I try to look at this from a business perspective. I don't know Jayco's margins since they are/were a private company, but Thor is publicly traded (THO) and so we know a bit more. They're running about 15% gross profit, which is healthy, but also includes brands like Airstream which very likely have a much higher profit margin than something like Keystone. In any case, when I extrapolate and think what that means for Jayco's profit margin, and what we know about their assembly time (7 hours I see thrown about, but that's a very general estimate), I conclude that labor isn't a huge factor in the unit cost (kinda like an iPhone -- you could build it in the USA and basically leave the price unchanged, it's not labor costs that drive the decision to manufacture in China).

I guess that's a roundabout way of saying that maybe Jayco does give us a choice. What's the real difference between their different lines? The Jay Flight SLX definitely feels cheaper, so they really cut back on materials, but what about the difference between a Jay Flight and a Whitehawk? Seems like a slightly more upscale style is the bigger differentiator than construction differences. But is a Whitehawk put together better? If I were Jayco, I'd make sure it was -- by paying my assembly works a good wage and then making sure incentives are structured the right way. E.g. don't penalize for warranty claims because that's punitive and is not good for morale, but rather provide an incremental bonus for every unit that goes out of the warranty period without a claim. Also provides golden shackles to keep your employees around longer so they can get the reward from the two-year warranty report on everything they've built.

If the SLX trailers are handily outselling everything else Jayco makes, then it's a race to the bottom. Doesn't mean they can't keep making better RVs for a higher price, but with fewer sales it means the higher cost will be amortized over a smaller customer base so it'll be more significant.
Good post , but if what we read is true, well jayco can start to keep the work force for a full eight hours per example instead of allowing them to run like maniac to leave early once the production is completed for the same money ! But hey we will not reinvent the world tonight.

as long as some that , keeps hiding their head in the sand dont come here to tell me that all is ok we are heading for a conclusion on this conversation lol thanks for your time
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Old 07-08-2016, 07:26 PM   #152
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I think there are many, many, many more people that are happy with their product choice.

To bad they don't say so in Forums....you usually only hear about the far less numbers that are not satisfied.



Safe travels everyone....
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Old 07-08-2016, 07:40 PM   #153
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I think there are many, many, many more people that are happy with their product choice.

To bad they don't say so in Forums....you usually only hear about the far less numbers that are not satisfied.



Safe travels everyone....

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Old 07-08-2016, 08:57 PM   #154
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I'll be one of them ( happy ) in 6 months or if you prefer a full two years after delivery. All the defects will be fixed and hopefully I'll be able to make one trip free without defect. ( ok I push a little ) :-)

Some peoples are just happy to be alive, some other expect more from life and are more vocal than others.

Iam sure that there is a lots of happy customers, and I am sure that there is a lot of non happy customer that are not sharing their experience, who prefer to fix there rig themselves, instead of fighting for what they deserve, some people are just like that they prefer to give up and to go on with their life .

One thing for sure , one or many can be happy with questionnable workmanship, and the industry wants it to remain like that. For one I work too hard to see my money going to someone who dont give a damn about doing something wrong and expecting a full payments for it.

Stand tall for your right , stay firm and expect always more from the big corp. ...and on top of that smile...its just a box after all
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Old 07-09-2016, 02:17 AM   #155
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I think there are many, many, many more people that are happy with their product choice.

To bad they don't say so in Forums....you usually only hear about the far less numbers that are not satisfied.



Safe travels everyone....
Here`s a happy testimony Larry. Nearly 7 years of owning our Jayco and its never been back to a dealer/shop for anything, in or out of warranty.... What few small issues I`ve had were easily remedied by me.
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Old 07-10-2016, 09:52 AM   #156
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Thor will DESTROY the Jayco reputation and products.

50 years of building a business will now just be another "crap" Rv with 8,000 quality issues shipping to the dealer.
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Old 07-10-2016, 10:05 AM   #157
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Thor will DESTROY the Jayco reputation and products.

50 years of building a business will now just be another "crap" Rv with 8,000 quality issues shipping to the dealer.
Didn't "destroy" AIRSTREAM..
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Old 07-10-2016, 11:54 AM   #158
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I'm basically fine with Jayco-level materials at this price point, but I'd be happy to spend an extra grand if they would spend 2-3 times as long putting it together so that everything lined up well, and another grand if they'd use more durable methods than staples.
I've proposed basically that a year or two ago and more recently. Jayco, or any manufacturer for that matter, could offer at additional cost, or "option," an in-house PDI and fix-up, whatever it takes to deliver a proper finished product.

The idea didn't get much support.
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Old 07-12-2016, 04:10 PM   #159
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I specifically, bought a Jayco Fifth Wheel because they "were" a family owned business known for quality, not one of giants (like Thor), who's only reason for being in the RV business is to make a quick buck.

Look what they (Thor) have done to Keystone. Prior to Keystone being consumed, I would've considered purchase of a Cougar. Since being bought-out by Thor, the Keystone Cougar has really went down-hill in quality. Sure, the Cougar still has decent "curb appeal", but look deeper and you'll find a unit assembled with sub-par materials by poorly trained (or rushed) individuals.

The two oldest RV Dealers in my area both handle some Thor products. In visiting with their Sales Staff & Service Departments, prior to purchasing my Jayco, I simply asked them which product lines were the most problematic. Without question, the Thor products led the way with more problems when the unit was received (& inspected), as well as after the customer used the unit for the first time. This included travel trailers, fifth wheels and motor homes.

I bought my new Jayco from one of these dealers and they are SHOCKED by the news of Thor taking over. They know what Thor is going to do to a good product & the related customer service, which isn't good.

Don't be fooled by statements such as: "things are going to remain the same" or "this will make Jayco a better company" or "this is good for the industry". The bottom line is that both Thor and Forrest River are trying to take advantage of the wave of Baby Boomers that are entering the RV market as they approach retirement. Once this group ages to the point that RV sales dwindle, they (Thor & FR) will start dropping their subsidiaries like a bad habit.

Look at Harley Davidson: They've thrived for the past 25 years on the backs (and dollars) of the Baby Boomers. I know, because I'm a Boomer myself and have been riding for 40+ years. Now that more and more folks my age are hanging up their helmets, Harley is in a financial crisis. They've lost market-share over the past three years, there are rumors of them being bought-out, their product quality is once again suffering (look at the massive recalls) and they don't have any bikes that appeals to someone under 40 years old.

July 1, 2016 was a BAD DAY for Jayco Owners and the health of the RV Industry.

I hope the Executives at Jayco enjoy counting Thor's money and don't lose much sleep thinking about all the loyal customers that got them to this point.

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Old 07-12-2016, 04:26 PM   #160
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West Texas, apparently you haven't followed AIRSTREAM since their buy out by THOR. They continue to flourish and they are now going to offer a "used factory warranty" similar to the auto industry for factory certified units. That has to say something.
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