A Serious Observation on Today's Posts on Overall Coach Build-Quality!

[gowestwardho]

As I perused the list of just the first threads I saw when I logged on just now I was struck by just how many comments and issues are about the quality of Class A coaches. As a group I find we are all far, far too complacent and patient with the various RV manufactures for their quality issues. For instance would you EVER accept these things when purchasing a car? No. I believe it is due to the overwhelming excitement, joy, anticipation and desire to "go RV'ing" that influences us to take such a relatively easy-going approach to what are otherwise inexcusable and EASILY PREVENTED quality control issues.

Down the list below today is one posting from "mikem57" (2016 31UL questions), in which "Keetters" comments on his new Precept which is still in with the Dealer for build repairs; "the front and end caps did not have the final clear finish applied completely, the bedroom slide did not close completely so there was a gap at the bottom you could slip your fingers in, the passenger slide was off to the front of the camper pinching the seals, both front slides were gouging the floor when closing you could see the slides tip down on the inside when nearly closed"(!) Can you imagine if you had to do that with an automobile?

I've toured the Jayco plant and while I thoroughly enjoyed the experience, I marveled at the evident lack of organization, the crap left laying around, the rush-rush of the Q/C process, and the assemply-line assumption that problems will be caught by someone else and fixed down-the-line (in the TV production industry we used to call that "fix-it-in-post(production)", leaving the editors to try and fix the directors and actors mistakes). I'm not faulting just Jayco in this because I firmly believe if one went through most all of the Class A Forums they would find the exact same percentage of comments there as well. Except for the uber-quality $$ builders this appears to have been an "accepted standard" in this industry for so long it's become systemic and hard to eradicate.

If just one normal-priced Class A builder would focus on quality assembly training and fire those that refuse to learn how to take pride in their work, they would in short time own the market. And it's not as if enforcing a quality-focus by build-employees costs more. As in Keetters post, had anyone simply bothered and traced-back who installed his bedroom slide so shoddy and then re-trained them, that would have fixed that issue for future coaches rolling down the line. It just takes accepting responsibility for your product. Talk about "pride in ownership", it's time to insist on some "pride in assembly". And that won't happen until we as a group of consumer begin insisting on NOT having to take our new rigs in for things that never should have happened in the first place.

Just an IMO vent this morning over coffee.......

[nma33]

Very good point, I had a few issues with mine but nothing that would stop me from buying this coach again. With that said, I totally agree with you, the industry as a whole, including very high end coaches is lacking and is always counting on "fix it in post" mentality, I too have done plenty of fix it in post back in the day! This is not limited to just the coach builders it also applies to the builder of the components used in building the coaches. one of the "you got to be kidding me" issues I had were, the slide topper screws that were used on my coach rusted out before I even picked it up, I bought a new 2015 35UN, picked it up in Nov 2015. The factory warranty center at Jayco is amazing, Because the dealer promised to install a solid sliding door in my coach where there was an accordion door, Jayco service center did an amazing job on the door, they took care of all the issues I had and sent me on my way a happy camper, I am going back at the beginning of April to have the spider cracks around the windshield repaired and Valve stem extenders installed. I am sure it will be another outstanding repair. But I would thing the warranty Service Center shouldn't be as busy as they are!

[gowestwardho]

nma33 I am curious - when you say "factory warranty center at Jayco", do you mean at the plant in Indiana? or are you referring to some local "factory" warranty center? I'd just like clarification for future knowledge. Thanks

[Sadie]

I 100% agree with gowestwardho!
I owned different RV from a tent trailer to a Class A. Throughout all the years the quality of the "End-Product" never changed, actually its worse as they use now cheap materials and cheap labour. And as gowestwardho said its not only Jayco, it is all over. The sad thing is that not even more costly products are better. I checked different brands and they are not better. This was my main reason to go with Jayco. They are priced reasonable compared to others. I would pay more if I knew that other brands don't have the same quality problems, but.... they have it too.

If I compare European RV's made in UK or Germany, the quality is much more better and RV's with our North American quality problems would not have a chance in that market.

The only think we can do is stay away from all the RV's manufactured with those quality problems or bite the bullet and repair it our self or complain and go back to the dealer until we are happy.

It's sad that an entire Industry can not show "pride in ownership" in their products. Still think Jayco is the right and better choice.

[Vicr]

One perspective to keep in mind when spending $100k + is for the same amount of money you can buy a Porsche 911S which is one of the finest performing and highest engineered sports cars made in the world. If I wasn't an RV'er I would have bought the 911 or a Corvette ZR06.

[Sadie]

Vicr, A bit tight in your Porsche to cook and sleep and have a 40" TV.
But you are right, nobody would buy a Porsche with those quality problems.

[kevfra]

Gee whiz, three different comparisons to the motorhome and a car. It isn't a car, so why expect it to be? It's not a Porsche, what in the world does such a comparison mean? And I have had both the Corvette mentioned and the Porsche mentioned and I dumped both of them because of quality issues.

You aren't buying a car and you aren't buying a ham radio and you aren't buying a bag of groceries - you are buying a custom made RV. It has its own host of issues. You are accepting that as part of the purchase, and if it isn't acceptable you shouldn't buy it.

[repacs0103]

It's to be expected- if you want perfection in something that large, with that many components and systems vs. that of a car, then you need to be spending 7 figures on a top of the line class A. The prices we pay for our RV's are dirt cheap for what we get- you have to expect a few issues quite frankly. In the scheme of things, be it a towable or a MH, jaycos fall in the upper low to mid range of the options, and you get what you pay for. I'm happy with mine, but my expectations are realistic.


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[Vicr]

Originally Posted by kevfra

Gee whiz, three different comparisons to the motorhome and a car. It isn't a car, so why expect it to be? It's not a Porsche, what in the world does such a comparison mean? And I have had both the Corvette mentioned and the Porsche mentioned and I dumped both of them because of quality issues.

You aren't buying a car and you aren't buying a ham radio and you aren't buying a bag of groceries - you are buying a custom made RV. It has its own host of issues. You are accepting that as part of the purchase, and if it isn't acceptable you shouldn't buy it.

Calm down! I was comparing MONEY spent on something. Are you trying to say I'm stupid? I don't appreciate your comments! And a Precept is NOT custom made, it is mass produced.

[Arniesports60]

I enjoyed the initial post as well as the followup replies.
There was a great article about this issue on the Daily RV emails i get.
Basically, the point of the article regarding quality (or lack of)) and
the "state of the rv" industry is the 4 main "players" all help to create this issue.
a) the Manufacturer, who doesn't always do enough to ensure a DELIVERABLE PRODUCT
b) Parts Co's (whose products often fail and take forever to replace)
c) Dealers (focused on Sales, don't have enough / or trained service staff, and
don't keep enough parts on hand to turnaround the rv to owner)

d) Buyers, who many times aren't trained properly, and by not being
vocal enough continue to allow this to go on...

[nma33]

Originally Posted by gowestwardho

nma33 I am curious - when you say "factory warranty center at Jayco", do you mean at the plant in Indiana? or are you referring to some local "factory" warranty center? I'd just like clarification for future knowledge. Thanks

I mean the Factory in Indiana, they are amazing there,

[bansai]

I remember when American cars were junk.

It took the Japanese, and serious global market competition for the US auto makers to get their act together.

The core problem I believe is the lack of competition in this market. Thor dominates and are therefore less willing to spend the time and budget improving their QA process.

If / when Thor loses market share - instead of being overwhelmed with new orders they can't even fulfill in a reasonable time frame, quality will improve, or Thor will go away. Just like American car builders almost did 35 years ago.

Most of our cars are now made with 20 million dollar precision robots and not 12 dollar an hour rehab patients. This is also a factor making the comparison between new cars and new RV's problematic. The RV market is still a niche and they are putting out about the same quality that Ford was in 1972

Edit - and yet one other often overlooked factor is the lack of regulation in the RV industry. Auto and home builders have numerous government regulatory oversight, from ISO, to DOT to NHSTA, electrical codes, and on and on. The RV business is mostly self regulating and they are getting away with setting the bar pretty low as a result. Sounds to me like an opportunity for some more competition - if the buyer is willing to pay.

I guarantee the men making the 100K porsche aren't making 15 bucks an hour.

[Arniesports60]

thanks for comments Bansai.

I assume many issues would not be detected until someone uses this MH.
BUT, there are many issues that SHOULD have been discovered at Builder
either during the initial QA stage or the PDI/Test drive (I thought manufactures
touted they all test ALL functions Prior to sending to dealers - or is this a Myth?).

As a builder I would TRY to Reduce the Returns, Fixes and Complaints from
workmanship that require multiple trips to Service bays by spending more QA/QC time
especially since lots of time/money is eaten up in the Warranty periods..

[Subaru297]

Originally Posted by Arniesports60

thanks for comments Bansai.

I assume many issues would not be detected until someone uses this MH.
BUT, there are many issues that SHOULD have been discovered at Builder
either during the initial QA stage or the PDI/Test drive (I thought manufactures
touted they all test ALL functions Prior to sending to dealers - or is this a Myth?).

As a builder I would TRY to Reduce the Returns, Fixes and Complaints from
workmanship that require multiple trips to Service bays by spending more QA/QC time
especially since lots of time/money is eaten up in the Warranty periods..

I think if this were the more economical option they would be doing it.
I would guess that spending 2 hours on every single unit produced to QC and then additional time to fix each and every little thing that is found would cost a lot more money than the minority of trailers that are brought back for warranty work.

Keep in mind that forums are a place for people to get support for problems and we see a much higher percentage of "bad" units than are really out there.

I would also imagine that there are lots of people with trailers that have never been back to the dealer. My trailer has never been back. For most of the little things it is much more convenient for me to fix it myself than schedule an appointment and take the trailer in and I know it is done right.

Higher quality trailers will cost more money and I bet there would be a lot more complaints about the high cost of trailers vs the low quality affordable ones. Or the factories could cut production and then in addition to higher cost units we would be on a much longer waiting list to get the trailer we wanted and the dealers would not be able to have a large inventory either.

And we keep buying them in droves so why would they stop doing what they are doing. They are likely making money so no reason to change anything.

Those are my thoughts anyway.....

Cheers

[bansai]

Originally Posted by Arniesports60

thanks for comments Bansai.

I assume many issues would not be detected until someone uses this MH.
BUT, there are many issues that SHOULD have been discovered at Builder
either during the initial QA stage or the PDI/Test drive (I thought manufactures
touted they all test ALL functions Prior to sending to dealers - or is this a Myth?).

As a builder I would TRY to Reduce the Returns, Fixes and Complaints from
workmanship that require multiple trips to Service bays by spending more QA/QC time
especially since lots of time/money is eaten up in the Warranty periods..

I fully agree. I've been a QA manager for 25 years now and we have a qliche I often have to remind management about monthly. 'You can either pay for quality now, or you can pay for it later, but you will pay'

It costs my company up to 4 times more money to fix a defect that made it into production. When they give me the time and budget to do my job, they pay a little more on the front end, but they save not only cash on the back end, but their reputation as well.

We call it the 'Cost of Quality', but it makes more sense when you think of it as 'The Cost of not having Quality'.

[Larry Mac]

Is it too much to expect an owners manual complete with instructions on how to properly use each each aspect of your rv/motor home in addition with schematics of your RV's inner workings with troubleshooting on how to solve potential problems.



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[William]

I bought A used 2015 31 UL and had no major problems with it. I was at the Rv show and looked at a Tiffin motor home and noticed several Quality issues. It also didn't have near the options that the precept had for a lot more money. And if you ever had a new home built by even the best builder there will be tons of issues. And if you ever bought new furniture and didn't have a pre-inspected you'll have tons of issues so you can't just compare car company. But I agree in all industries if people just cared a little bit more about their work and took pride it would help.


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[edfgrf]

I believe it is a sign of the times. It is just like construction industry. Time is money. Build it fast and cheap. The same person builds a $100000 coach or house as a $400000 coach or house. Competition of a quality unity would help. All that said I am happy with my coach with few issues.

[Isaacs]

Perhaps it's time for all RV buyers to get more serious about the pre delivery inspection. Look at everything you can and be fussy. The dealers usually want you to take possession of an RV with the idea that you can bring it back later to get everything fixed. I say walk away, don't write the check, and tell them you'll be back when it's fixed. I'm betting it will be fixed quickly so they can complete the sale.

[Arniesports60]

I found a similar thread (QC issues) in IVR2. Below is a section on one comment
that I thought interesting to share here too...

------
If you are buying new:
We recently put on our helmets and took out our bats to try to ink
a deal on a new American Allegiance. We arrived at a "fair price".

Knowing that new MH's will have issues and loss of use was not what
I was paying for, as part of the deal, I made them include my
Loss Of Use contract which stipulated that any days down over 30 for repairs,
in the first 18 months, they were legally obligated to pay me
$350.00 per day (cost of a comparable rental).

Needless to say, they would not accept our contract inclusion so the deal died.

We make these major purchases to follow dreams and lifestyles,
not for our MH to sit at the dealer for months and months correcting design/manufacturer flaws.

Hold them accountable, as many on this thread have,
this is hard earned money that is being spent for a specific purpose.