Dropped in Lithium Batteries

AKGperson · 01-25-2019, 06:09 PM

I'm thinking of replacing my lead acid deep cycle batteries with Battle Born Lithium batteries. Battle Born calls their batteries "drop in replacements". My question is, have you swapped out for Lithium batteries and, if so, did you switch out the Jayco-installed controller/charger as well? My understanding is that the original charger will charge them but not to 100%.

Johnny Lightning · 01-25-2019, 07:10 PM

I'd go to battle born's web page or call them. I don't have any personal experience with them but they're reputation is they're real helpful. You might also want to check out "enigmatic nomadics" on youtube. They have several videos on solar installations and I believe one from their van build has a fairly long segment on battle born batteries. I think you need an MPPT controller that is selectable for for lithium batteries. Good luck and please let us know how it turns out.

Semix-Hex · 01-25-2019, 08:07 PM

If you have that WFCO electrical distribution box, it are not capable of working with a Lithium battery (I asked at the dealers today). I also found that it is not really able to a agm battery justice either.

I am going to use a Lithonics Lithium battery, a different inverter/converter setup and use the WFCO system as a junction box after removing the converter.

Gizmopilot · 01-26-2019, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKGperson

I'm thinking of replacing my lead acid deep cycle batteries with Battle Born Lithium batteries. Battle Born calls their batteries "drop in replacements". My question is, have you swapped out for Lithium batteries and, if so, did you switch out the Jayco-installed controller/charger as well? My understanding is that the original charger will charge them but not to 100%.

I installed 2 BB 100ah batteries in my 2018 Eagle 322RLOK delivered 5/18 and the built in 4560 controller does support lithium batteries.

Even if your converter doesn’t does it have the battery “wizard” / boost button and that will change the charge profile temporarily an top off the BB batteries.

BB also sells replacement chargers that can be swapped out in your converter.

I highly recommend getting a BMV-712 battery monitor as you can’t detect a lithium batteries state of charge very well by its output voltage - it maintains voltage until it is almost emptied.

I noticed mention of a mppt controller - that is a solar panel controller - most popular current models support charging lithium batteries - I have a victron 100/50 and it does support lithium batteries

pokergeist · 01-26-2019, 03:13 PM

I installed (4) Battle Born BB10012 drop in replacement batteries into our Seneca. The BB folks are very good at answering questions.

The coach came with the Progressive Dynamics PD4590 with Charge Wizzard. I bought the PD4590LICSV lithium (LiFePo4 or LFP) charge module but have not installed it. It looks like the Precision Electronics battery isolation manager (BIM) would just draw off the top charge to charge my long-in-the-tooth chassis batteries. The BIM starts passing charge voltage to the low side while the high side is above 13.3V and the low side is below 12.6V.

If I need to, I can press the button on the PD panel to get the 14.4V charge voltage for a while.

I'll sort this out more when we get out and about in a few weeks. For now, the BBs have been holding voltage very well - still above 13V after many weeks. My lead acid house batteries would have been deader than dead by now had they stayed in the coach. I have a small solar panel trickle charging the chassis batteries.

Gizmopilot · 01-26-2019, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokergeist

I installed (4) Battle Born BB10012 drop in replacement batteries into our Seneca. The BB folks are very good at answering questions.

The coach came with the Progressive Dynamics PD4590 with Charge Wizzard. I bought the PD4590LICSV lithium (LiFePo4 or LFP) charge module but have not installed it. It looks like the Precision Electronics battery isolation manager (BIM) would just draw off the top charge to charge my long-in-the-tooth chassis batteries. The BIM starts passing charge voltage to the low side while the high side is above 13.3V and the low side is below 12.6V.

If I need to, I can press the button on the PD panel to get the 14.4V charge voltage for a while.

I'll sort this out more when we get out and about in a few weeks. For now, the BBs have been holding voltage very well - still above 13V after many weeks. My lead acid house batteries would have been deader than dead by now had they stayed in the coach. I have a small solar panel trickle charging the chassis batteries.

What year is your PD4590? The new models (somewhere at the end of 2017) have a jumper on the charger circuit board labeled LI/WIZ if you move the jumper to LI it will change the charge profile to 14.4 all the time so you don’t have to push the boost button to top off your BB’s

pokergeist · 01-26-2019, 03:27 PM

The BBs have a different terminal post so if you have four house batteries you may need longer cables to jump from front to back. You can't angle the cable terminals toward each other - they come off at a 90 degree angle from the flat post so you need slightly longer cables. But then, you may only need half as many LFP batteries to give you the same usable capacity.

pokergeist · 01-26-2019, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizmopilot

What year is your PD4590? The new models (somewhere at the end of 2017) have a jumper on the charger circuit board labeled LI/WIZ if you move the jumper to LI it will change the charge profile to 14.4 all the time so you don’t have to push the boost button to top off your BB’s

We have a 2015.

Gizmopilot · 01-26-2019, 03:36 PM

It sounds like yours may be an older model

AKGperson · 01-26-2019, 04:05 PM

Our Jayco is a 2015 model manufactured in late 2014 so I doubt it has the LI/WIZ jumper but I'll check the next time I'm at the storage lot. Lithium batteries weren't even talked about 4 years ago.

Semix-Hex · 01-26-2019, 07:00 PM

Last week I had also noticed Jayco for reasons unknown, grounds the main black (neutral) wire to the frame on the 12vdc side. When I do the work with the new equipment, I’ll be running both black and red to all of the fixtures with bus bars on each side.

AKGperson · 01-26-2019, 11:16 PM

Semix-Hex, You do realize that at some point you will have to connect the ground to the frame, right?

Semix-Hex · 01-27-2019, 03:50 PM

I could very well be wrong but I’ve done the runs with both wires. Yes, some point the black is grounded to the frame but not each wire. I also know that the main trailer harness is connected to the frame as well.

If I a wrong just say so, I’m open to learn more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKGperson

Semix-Hex, You do realize that at some point you will have to connect the ground to the frame, right?

AKGperson · 01-27-2019, 05:43 PM

I'm no DC (direct current) expert but I don't think it matters if the battery negative/ground is connected directly to the frame or to a negative bus bar that is then attached to the frame for grounding. Also, with DC circuits you have a positive & negative wire, no neutral. With that said, I'm sure it will work the way you plan to do it.

SmackIt · 01-27-2019, 11:42 PM

I have 2 of the Battleborn 100Ah batteries in my 2012 Jay Flight 19RD. You can see my solar thread here. I know the BB guys pretty well and they're great to deal with. I have 3 seasons on my batteries and they're flawless.

Flight Control · 02-02-2019, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKGperson

I'm thinking of replacing my lead acid deep cycle batteries with Battle Born Lithium batteries. Battle Born calls their batteries "drop in replacements". My question is, have you swapped out for Lithium batteries and, if so, did you switch out the Jayco-installed controller/charger as well? My understanding is that the original charger will charge them but not to 100%.

I really like Lithium technology, so I replaced my 2018 Greyhawk house battery with a Renogy Lithium 100ah battery. I also replaced the PD9260C converter with a PD9260AL. This is necessary to provide the extra boost in charge voltage, which Lithium requires for 100% charge.

But I forgot something important when I embarked on this project. The Greyhawk has a switch/solenoid under the hood which links together the chassis battery with the house battery. The batteries can be manually linked by pressing a button under the left dash. This function is provided in case the chassis battery is depleted. But, no matter how the engine is started, the batteries will be linked when the engine runs. That's not good. Because the engine alternator follows a charge profile for AGM batteries, not Lithium. What to do?

There was no way I was going to reinstall the AGM. So, I installed a switch between the house battery and solenoid. By doing that, the house battery is always isolated from the truck alternator unless I actually need it linked, and it is always being charged by shore power or by the solar panels I installed on the roof. (But that's another story.)

I hope this helps.

Bullitt6283 · 02-02-2019, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flight Control

I really like Lithium technology, so I replaced my 2018 Greyhawk house battery with a Renogy Lithium 100ah battery... .

Have you ever had an issue starting the generator with the single lithium battery?

.

pokergeist · 02-02-2019, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flight Control

... But I forgot something important when I embarked on this project. The Greyhawk has a switch/solenoid under the hood which links together the chassis battery with the house battery. The batteries can be manually linked by pressing a button under the left dash. This function is provided in case the chassis battery is depleted. But, no matter how the engine is started, the batteries will be linked when the engine runs. That's not good. Because the engine alternator follows a charge profile for AGM batteries, not Lithium. What to do? ...

What battery isolation manager (BIM) do you have? I have the Precision Circuits 00-10021-000 and as I understand it, that unit is not supposed to pass charging current once the low side is above 12.6V or if the high side drops below 13.3V. I hope to confirm this before long.

Flight Control · 02-02-2019, 05:35 PM

I was surprised by that question. It never crossed my mind that Lithium would present some kind of cold crank issue. Did you come across something in the blogosphere that suggested such? But to answer your questions, no that's never been an issue. In fact, after reading your post, I hit the start button just to confirm. It was a strong kick, and it started in about 3 seconds.

Flight Control · 02-02-2019, 05:58 PM

Clearly you know far more about the technicals than I do. I don't really know which solenoid part it is.

A little background: I like Lithium so much, I quickly moved ahead to replace the house AGM battery without doing much research. I was talking to Renogy techs on a different subject and I asked them about replacing AGM with Lithium in the house (after I had already done it.) They said it is not recommended because of the alternator voltage. I think I mumbled something like "Oh $&*t" and hung up. Then I set about to find out which cable on the solenoid was the house, and which was the alternator. After I determined which one it was, I isolated it from the solenoid, started the engine, and measured the voltage to ground. It don't recall the exact value, but it was significantly less than the 14.4v that Lithium needs to keep it boosted to 100%. I presumed that the voltage diff is the reason why Renogy doesn't recommend Lithium in the RV house. Take away the link to the alternator, and there's no difference between the house Lithium battery and any other Lithium application in a solar-powered home.

Maybe I'm missing something here. If I am, I hope somebody tells me before I blow something up.

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