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Old 01-18-2016, 01:31 PM   #41
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This brings up another one: Shade

Is there any difference between shade in a panel from a vent cover, antenna, etc. and shade from being parked near or under trees, or shade from clouds?
There's nothing magically different from one type of shade to another.

The distances are obviously different, and how much light actually passes through/between leaves and clouds varies, but both are blocking some percentage of the light that would otherwise hit the panel.
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Old 01-19-2016, 05:10 PM   #42
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I spent some time on Solar Bob's web site last night. Ha ha. I love reading that guys perspective. Lots of first hand knowledge for sure.

I don't know if I'm going to go the solar route, but after reading all this stuff, it really has me interested in trying it out.

My biggest take away from reading his site it, there seems to be a big disagreement on what a fully charged battery is. Bob doesn't think many widely accepted methods for battery charging are working. I read enough to make me want to test/monitor my battery to see what it's really doing. Ya think you are taking care of your battery, but maybe I'm not taking care of it at all...?

I've got a new rig coming next month. I'm definitely going to get a battery monitor to get better informed about that. We'll see where the solar thing goes.

Has anyone noticed their stock converters not fully charging their batteries (12.7v)? I guess batteries can differ, but in Bob's example, Trojan's want 14.8 volts to charge a 12v battery.

Anyone have experience with measuring the charge going to their batteries?
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Old 01-19-2016, 07:50 PM   #43
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I spent some time on Solar Bob's web site last night. Ha ha. I love reading that guys perspective. Lots of first hand knowledge for sure.

I don't know if I'm going to go the solar route, but after reading all this stuff, it really has me interested in trying it out.

My biggest take away from reading his site it, there seems to be a big disagreement on what a fully charged battery is. Bob doesn't think many widely accepted methods for battery charging are working. I read enough to make me want to test/monitor my battery to see what it's really doing. Ya think you are taking care of your battery, but maybe I'm not taking care of it at all...?

I've got a new rig coming next month. I'm definitely going to get a battery monitor to get better informed about that. We'll see where the solar thing goes.

Has anyone noticed their stock converters not fully charging their batteries (12.7v)? I guess batteries can differ, but in Bob's example, Trojan's want 14.8 volts to charge a 12v battery.

Anyone have experience with measuring the charge going to their batteries?
The "Solar Ready" on the soon to be New Jayco started me down this path, Handy Bob helped me realize it was a reasonable thought, along with all the other stuff I read here and elsewhere. We camp in National Parks allot, and the thought of the panels doing the work to charge batteries while we are hiking, enjoying nature etc, sounds awesome!! Generator only got microwave, and the occasional air conditioning if it's unbearable out.

I want to start buying parts, but realize that I need to get the camper first. Need to know what the solar ready wiring lengths are to get an idea of loss. Need open roof measurements to get a good idea of real estate for panels and see where batteries will fit and what size.

As much as I want to jump, I need to wait to get it designed.

I'd be curious to hear how current converters do at charging as well.
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Old 01-19-2016, 11:24 PM   #44
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I bought my battery monitor first. The thinking behind it was that I needed to know what my power consumption habits were before sizing a system and batteries to match. I bought the Victron 600, since superseded by the 700. Gives you battery voltage, charge rate, % charge, AH consumed and much more. Programmable to battery type and size.
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Old 01-24-2016, 09:05 AM   #45
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Just found this thread and read thru it all. I've also read HB's site.

Before leaving for the winter I installed 4x 6v AGM, 2kw PSW inverter and a custom monitoring system. I'm charging with a 2kw genny this winter and monitoring usage.

If I only run the fridge on propane and some LED lights I use about 15AH overnight. I run the genny thru the onboard charge controller to recharge for this winter. It hits the 90% charge level pretty quickly so it doesn't seem to be the most efficient way to charge.

As I type this the genny has been on for about 45min and the controller is at 13.42v & 7.1A into the batteries and has replaced 5AH.

I plan to use 24v residential panels with MPPT as in my area they provide the best Watt/$ & Watt/sqft.
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:51 AM   #46
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Interesting discussion so far. I am another one of Handy Bob's followers and perhaps I put too much faith into his rants and teachings, but I think there is a lot of good info there. He has certainly tested out a lot of equipment and is living with solar. He is not a weekend warrior.

I followed his recommendations and installed 300W of "12v" panels with a PWM controller and I have turned off my converter at the breaker and haven't turned it back on. I would much rather have my solar controller maintain my batteries. I have not needed to turn the converter back on either (one camping season so far). I think the lowest my batteries have gotten is around 84% after a cloudy, rainy day where they didn't get much charge put back in. Usually they reach 100% each day before the sun sets.

Keeping in mind I am in Canada and things differ in costs I did a cost comparison of going MPPT vs PWM and I found the savings from the high voltage panels start to outweigh the cost of the MPPT controller at around 700Watts worth of panels. I was only planning on 300W to start with and that combined with the minor gains of MPPT over PWM made me decide on PWM. On top of that I am cheap so a $160 controller (SC-2030) was much more attractive than $400+ for MPPT.

I did the generator in the morning and afternoon thing for a season and have concluded that the generator and truck charging did not ever give me a full charge. Even the onboard converter did not unless I was plugged in for days. We had a new group 27 battery that would get run flat (12volts) after a night running the furnace. With my setup now and the battery monitor I know that I only use up around 20AH a night if that. Closer to 10-15 on average. Certainly not enough to drain a 120AH group 27 battery that was fully charged.

My solar install and details can be found here....
http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...ods-27973.html

I am very happy with everything. I would also suggest as someone else did to install a battery monitor. It is the best addition to our trailer so far followed by the solar.

Happy camping!

I love solar threads! More people need to realize how efficient and effective solar can be. I was amazed that 300Watts was more than enough for us. I am trying to convince my neighbor to get a system for his new trailer.
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:15 AM   #47
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I have a signature system core from AMsolar.com paired with two 6 volt golf cart batteries. The system I put together has two 160 watt panels with the blue sky 25amp controller. The wiring they provide is perfect for the system. I highly recommend a battery monitor with any system you get. My system works very well. My batteries are usually charged up by noon. Now, you need to remember that every ones needs are different. We just use lights, water pump and furnace at night. We don't sit in the trailer all day watching tv and running heat. I punched a hole in the roof of my brand new 26BHS the first week I had it and mounted a combiner box on top of it.. Just seal it up with Dicor and you won't have any problems. Good luck.
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Old 02-23-2016, 11:34 AM   #48
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One other thing I forgot to mention. Someone mentioned PWM aren't efficient or capable when shaded or in the morning in low light scenarios.
We returned from a trip one rainy night (home in the dark) with around 90% charge on the batteries and went inside.
I noticed in the morning (sun was still very low on the horizon) that we were fully charged. Then I realized we parked under a street light! The street light charged our batteries over night. Pretty cool!
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:00 PM   #49
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I noticed in the morning (sun was still very low on the horizon) that we were fully charged. Then I realized we parked under a street light! The street light charged our batteries over night. Pretty cool!
Don't tell the city or they will figure a way of charging you for the city light fixture lumens used for personal use. Watch the Panel output on a crystal clear night with a full moon above. Yes, there is a little charging taking place. I had to look twice when I saw it.

Don
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:05 PM   #50
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Another question that crossed my mind that I haven't seen an answer for:

Considering a 12V nominal panel, does it always produce a constant voltage, or does it ramp up to the maximum with increasing sun strength starting at zero and going up to the maximum?

I'm wondering, if the voltage does vary, if that gives higher voltage panels a step up, by getting to a high enough voltage earlier in the day?
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Old 02-23-2016, 12:21 PM   #51
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Voltage varies with the light incidence angle as well as intensity so a high voltage panel could reach >12 volts sooner than a 12v panel in theory. They also have much more surface area so it makes sense that they gather more light.
I would guess that the amps would be very low in this scenario and probably insignificant. Maybe an amp or two first thing in the morning.

Every little bit helps though...
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Old 02-23-2016, 01:16 PM   #52
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I'm wondering, if the voltage does vary, if that gives higher voltage panels a step up, by getting to a high enough voltage earlier in the day?
To charge a 12VDC battery you need a source voltage of 17Volts or more. The higher the panel voltage (30+ volts...) the sooner the charging process begins, and the longer it produces a useable charge at the end of the day. The output on a clear day (100% sunshine, no clouds) looks like the old bell curve (with a flat top) that they used to grade us in school, It starts at 0VDC moves to the VMP (Max voltage for the panel) and back down to 0VDC. So with all that, yes the higher voltage panels have a longer daily charge than the lower voltage panels. And yes it costs more because you need to purchase an MPPT charge controller to handle the higher voltage.

If you look at a graph for the output of a SOLAR panel for a normal day (clouds here and there) it looks like peaks and valleys from the morning to the evening. You will have your voltage, but your amps will be like a roller coaster ride up and down as the clouds pass over head.

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Old 02-23-2016, 02:00 PM   #53
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To charge a 12VDC battery you need a source voltage of 17Volts or more.

Don
If this were true there would not be a converter alive that would charge a battery.

12.7 volts will charge a battery it will just take a very long time.

If you are referring to the input side of a charge controller then I would agree somewhat but it probably does not need 17 volts. 13+ would do it with a mildly efficient controller.

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Old 02-23-2016, 02:23 PM   #54
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If this were true there would not be a converter alive that would charge a battery.

12.7 volts will charge a battery it will just take a very long time.

If you are referring to the input side of a charge controller then I would agree somewhat but it probably does not need 17 volts. 13+ would do it with a mildly efficient controller.

Cheers
The reason you need a minimum of 17 volts is because when your battery is in need of a charge lets say it is 12.0 volts, the supply voltage will drop. If for example you have a 13VDC source, and your battery is 12.0 the source voltage will drop to somewhere between 12 and 12.5 (give or take a little). The battery being charged becomes a load on the source. It would take forever to put a full charge into that battery. To properly charge the deep cycle battery (or a car battery) you need to start at around 14.4 volts and work your way down to 13.2Volts for a float.

If you want to test this, take a 1.5 volt battery that is discharged to about .75 volts, put a fresh 1.5 volt battery in parallel and the result will be that the supply battery will drop to somewhere between 1.5 and .75 volts.

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Old 02-23-2016, 02:32 PM   #55
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If this were true there would not be a converter alive that would charge a battery.

12.7 volts will charge a battery it will just take a very long time.

If you are referring to the input side of a charge controller then I would agree somewhat but it probably does not need 17 volts. 13+ would do it with a mildly efficient controller.

Cheers

Sorry about the double post, but the screen blinked and then there were 2.

The reason you need a minimum of 17 volts is because when your battery is in need of a charge lets say it is 12.0 volts, the supply voltage will drop. If for example you have a 13VDC source, and your battery is 12.0 the source voltage will drop to somewhere between 12 and 12.5 (give or take a little). The battery being charged becomes a load on the source. It would take forever to put a full charge into that battery. To properly charge the deep cycle battery (or a car battery) you need to start at around 14.4 volts and work your way down to 13.2Volts for a float. That is why the output on a 12Volt solar system the panel VMP is usually 17 or 18 volts.

If you want to test this, take a 1.5 volt battery that is discharged to about .75 volts, put a fresh 1.5 volt battery in parallel and the result will be that the supply battery will drop to somewhere between 1.5 and .75 volts.

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Old 02-23-2016, 03:21 PM   #56
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The reason you need a minimum of 17 volts is because when your battery is in need of a charge lets say it is 12.0 volts, the supply voltage will drop. If for example you have a 13VDC source, and your battery is 12.0 the source voltage will drop to somewhere between 12 and 12.5 (give or take a little). The battery being charged becomes a load on the source. It would take forever to put a full charge into that battery. To properly charge the deep cycle battery (or a car battery) you need to start at around 14.4 volts and work your way down to 13.2Volts for a float. That is why the output on a 12Volt solar system the panel VMP is usually 17 or 18 volts.


Don
I totally agree with you. Just arguing a technicality. A higher input voltage will charge a battery faster and more efficiently than a lower one. And anything less than around 14 would be almost useless. (ie. most converters)

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Old 02-25-2016, 09:25 AM   #57
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Interesting find last night. This blogging/vlogging couple pooped up on something and, out of curiosity, I clicked.

http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/solar

While not terribly technical, I did see some things that I think are fairly valuable from an informational standpoint, even if they didn't seem to grasp the full significance.

1 - They are using 960W in 6 panels connected in series and 700 ish amp hours in lithium ion batteries.
2 - In their video on the impact of tilting, they didn't see a benefit of tilting until all 6 panels had been tilted. This confirms to me that any impact on 1 panels production will limit the rest of he panels as I have read elsewhere. They didn't seem to grasp this point.
3- They tested running the A/C off the inverter. It worked, but was sucking 75 amps, while solar was providing around 40 amps, so obviously couldn't sustain this for long periods.

Not sure if they are "keeping it simple" for the audience, our if their level of understanding is on the lower side. I found myself asking why they have 700 some amp-hrs of battery and 960 Watts of solar, but I haven't found that video yet.

Interesting to watch though.
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Old 02-25-2016, 01:25 PM   #58
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So far it looks like my max draw between genny runs has been around 55AH. That's with a few hrs of TV, LED interior lights, fridge and furnace running (cold nights in the desert). I'm in a park for a month in Desert Hot Springs now but when I was on BLM I ran the genny in the evening and again in the morning, about 6pm to 8am on batteries.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:49 AM   #59
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Bob helped me... a lot

Only by reading HandyBob's blog, I went from zero knowledge of battery systems to being able to convert my husband's work van into a camper van with DC and a AC inverter running off a bank of four 6 volt batteries. I even mailed him a picture of my set up before I made the final tie in, just to make sure it was basically correct, and he kindly confirmed the set up. His advice has been invaluable for me.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:26 AM   #60
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Only by reading HandyBob's blog, I went from zero knowledge of battery systems to being able to convert my husband's work van into a camper van with DC and a AC inverter running off a bank of four 6 volt batteries. I even mailed him a picture of my set up before I made the final tie in, just to make sure it was basically correct, and he kindly confirmed the set up. His advice has been invaluable for me.
WELCOME TO JOF!!!

The members here are GREAT!!! There is a lot of GREAT information to be found here. I am sure that you will have information and pictures to share with us... so please do!!

My Registry

RVing with SOLAR

--------------------------------------------------------

GREAT JOB!!!!

Tell us a little about your setup.... pictures.... we love pictures here. We also have an "RVing with SOLAR" Social Group, feel free to look it over and join in on giving some of your experiences. Unfortunately, each post will only allow for 1000 characters, so continue in a 2nd, 3rd.... post.

Where in the world did you manage to fit (4) 6 volt batteries? What type of batteries did you use? (AGM, FLOODED....). Size or your system? Ah's... type of SOLAR Charge Controller?

HandyBob's blog is a useful tool for those looking for a view on SOLAR. There are a lot of HandyBob type blogs which have good information in them ansd some that you would want to stay clear of. You just need to weed out a few things and update his thoughts with current technology.

Where in the world did you manage to fit (4) 6 volt batteries? What type of batteries did you use? (AGM, FLOODED....)

Don
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