195 RBW - Relocating Battery to Inside?

[MrKABC]

Originally Posted by Bob K

Good to have you back in the forum though!

I never left! Just haven't done many mods lately, been lazy and sluggish. Just added a Stromberg Carlson JET 3755 electric jack to replace the manual crank, and I'm still struggling with the water supply issue.

Looks like WFCO 8700 series now has a Lithium charge option:

https://wfcoelectronics.com/product/wf-8740lis/

Might be a drop in replacement for the charge controller that is there with minimal wiring. What do you think?

[ttavasc]

Originally Posted by MrKABC

I never left! Just haven't done many mods lately, been lazy and sluggish. Just added a Stromberg Carlson JET 3755 electric jack to replace the manual crank, and I'm still struggling with the water supply issue.

Looks like WFCO 8700 series now has a Lithium charge option:

https://wfcoelectronics.com/product/wf-8740lis/

Might be a drop in replacement for the charge controller that is there with minimal wiring. What do you think?

I would take another look at the Progressive Dynamics PD4100 series. They now have a Lithium-capable model that is direct replacement for the WFCO-8735. Looking at the installation details it looks pretty straight-forward. Regardless of which route you go both are going to be a complete swap-out of the existing power center and I suspect the wiring that entails will be about the same for both. Also, with the Progressive you will gain the ability to replace just the converter/charger going forward rather than the whole power center. My preference would be for the Progressive Dynamics as both the WFCO's I've had seemed incapable of going into bulk charge mode when the battery was deeply discharged. In fact, starting with the 2020 models ORV switched from WFCO to Progressive as the OEM power centers.

[MrKABC]

Thanks for the valuable info! I'll definitely take a look at the Progressive. Is the form factor similar in size or will I need to carve up my cabinet?

Also, will I be able to add an inverter? The 195s don't have them, AC power only available with generator or shore power.

Lots of good stuff here!

[ttavasc]

Originally Posted by MrKABC

Thanks for the valuable info! I'll definitely take a look at the Progressive. Is the form factor similar in size or will I need to carve up my cabinet?

Also, will I be able to add an inverter? The 195s don't have them, AC power only available with generator or shore power.

Lots of good stuff here!

Progressive indicates it is a direct replacement for the 8735 so it should install in the same opening where the 8735 is installed. You will need to move over all the AC and DC wires plus all the wires for the various 12v loads but you'll have to do that with the WFCO as well.

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by MrKABC

I never left! Just haven't done many mods lately, been lazy and sluggish. Just added a Stromberg Carlson JET 3755 electric jack to replace the manual crank, and I'm still struggling with the water supply issue.

Looks like WFCO 8700 series now has a Lithium charge option:

https://wfcoelectronics.com/product/wf-8740lis/

Might be a drop in replacement for the charge controller that is there with minimal wiring. What do you think?

I just saw that this week, too. I'm excited about it since my WFCO-8735 doesn't get the lithium batts anywhere close to the 80-90% SOC that Battle Born predicted:
https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f...tml#post979939

I'll take a look at that Progressive Dynamics unit, too.

A switchout isn't absolutely necessary for me since I already have the Victron BlueSmart charger. The downside to sticking with the WF-8735 is that, because the lithium batts are at a higher voltage, the batteries rather than the onboard converter end up powering the DC side of the trailer. That means my batteries deplete even when I'm plugged into shore power unless I trip the new battery disconnect switch.

[MrKABC]

Originally Posted by Bob K

I just saw that this week, too. I'm excited about it since my WFCO-8735 doesn't get the lithium batts anywhere close to the 80-90% SOC that Battle Born predicted:
https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f...tml#post979939

I'll take a look at that Progressive Dynamics unit, too.

A switchout isn't absolutely necessary for me since I already have the Victron BlueSmart charger. The downside to sticking with the WF-8735 is that, because the lithium batts are at a higher voltage, the batteries rather than the onboard converter end up powering the DC side of the trailer. That means my batteries deplete even when I'm plugged into shore power unless I trip the new battery disconnect switch.

As of today, the WFCO WF-8735 LiS is still not available. Looks like the PD unit might be the way to go. I can do the switchout but what a PITA. Reading e-Trailer reviews doesn't really inspire confidence with the Progressive Dynamics RV Power Control Center with AC/DC Panel and Converter/Smart Charger - 35 Amp # PD4135K.

From a recent review: "...The PD unit is a bit smaller than the WFCO and therefore the PD cover just barely covered the old screw holes. Also, the WFCO has 7 fuses but are not identical to PD's 7. The PD has 5 branch circuits like the WFCO except it has one extra circuit that can handle up to 30A - that's the second red wire (labeled 002) and the 6th fuse. The 7th fuse is red on both units and is for reverse protection. The 6th fuse on the WFCO is to doubly protect all of the branch circuits and has a metal 30A fuse - that's not in the design of the PD. Operationally, the PD works fine. The switch to convert to Li batteries is TINY and prone to breaking off (my first unit had the the switch in the bottom of the box!) You'll have to scour the PD website to find a picture of the switch since it is not included in the manual..."

What to do... what to do...

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by MrKABC

As of today, the WFCO WF-8735 LiS is still not available. Looks like the PD unit might be the way to go. I can do the switchout but what a PITA. Reading e-Trailer reviews doesn't really inspire confidence with the Progressive Dynamics RV Power Control Center with AC/DC Panel and Converter/Smart Charger - 35 Amp # PD4135K.

From a recent review: "...The PD unit is a bit smaller than the WFCO and therefore the PD cover just barely covered the old screw holes. Also, the WFCO has 7 fuses but are not identical to PD's 7. The PD has 5 branch circuits like the WFCO except it has one extra circuit that can handle up to 30A - that's the second red wire (labeled 002) and the 6th fuse. The 7th fuse is red on both units and is for reverse protection. The 6th fuse on the WFCO is to doubly protect all of the branch circuits and has a metal 30A fuse - that's not in the design of the PD. Operationally, the PD works fine. The switch to convert to Li batteries is TINY and prone to breaking off (my first unit had the the switch in the bottom of the box!) You'll have to scour the PD website to find a picture of the switch since it is not included in the manual..."

What to do... what to do...

Do you already have lithium batts installed? I can't recall. If yes, you might get away with just letting the WF-8735 do what it will do with the lithium batts. I seem to get about 70% SOC out of it, though it's hit or miss: Sometimes less, sometimes more. It's weird, but we really shouldn't expect anything consistent from a piece of electronic equipment that isn't designed to handle lithium batts.

The other option is a portable lithium batt charger as an interim until the WF-8735LiS is available. Maybe you could justify the purchase to upgrade your other battery chargers if it's one like the Victron BlueSmart that'll do multiple battery chemistries.

[MrKABC]

Originally Posted by Bob K

Do you already have lithium batts installed? I can't recall.

No, not yet. Was holding off until I could find a charger. I want the small form Battle Borne 10.32 x 6.86 x 11 inch size as opposed to the Group 27 form.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DY85368...v_ov_lig_dp_it

Looks like a golf cart battery but the same 12v 100ah rating as the Group 27 size. Not cheep though, so I want to have the parts ready to go before I start building. Dang, I have been talking about this for over a year now and no joy.

[MrKABC]

UPDATE:

Today I talked to WFCO tech support, he said that the 8735LiS is available but in very short supply. The recommendation was to "use Google" to try and find one, and to avoid any "refurbished" units that might be out there.

The 8735AD is still "in development" and he couldn't give an ETA for the panel.

So the search is on to find an LiS!

[MrKABC]

Ok, it's ON! Dual Battle Borne LiPo batteries ordered, Victron 712BMV, Battery switch, bus bars all ordered.

I have wires, fish tape, terminal ends, heatshrink, DVM and framing materials.

Still unicorn hunting the WFCO LiS 8735, but will move forward once I get the batteries.

Anything I am missing?

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by MrKABC

Anything I am missing?

How about fuses or circuit breakers for the various circuits?

Maybe wire loom to protect wires if you're running them from the OEM battery location outside into the basement.

Take lots of pics for us!

[MrKABC]

Originally Posted by Bob K

How about fuses or circuit breakers for the various circuits?

Maybe wire loom to protect wires if you're running them from the OEM battery location outside into the basement.

Take lots of pics for us!

Batteries, switch and Victron are here. Waiting on the bus bars and fusible link to start laying it all out. I have heavy gauge wire, terminal ends, hydraulic crimpers, soldering gear, heatshrink, DVM, etc.

I'll start by pulling the WFCO and see how the wires have been run. Still looking for the WFCO 8735LiS but that's a unicorn, so I may just need to cave and get the Progressive Dynamics panel since it can charge lithium batteries. I'll keep updating this thread!

[MrKABC]

Here's how I plan to assemble the wiring. Roast my diagram?

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by MrKABC

Here's how I plan to assemble the wiring. Roast my diagram?

What software did you use to create the electrical diagram? I've been looking for a free, good one.

I only notice a few things that look "different".

1. Connecting both battery negatives to the busbar independently still electrically accomplishes the same thing as connecting both negative battery terminals together and then running a single negative battery wire to the busbar. However, I'm used to seeing batteries hooked to each other in parallel and then one wire to the busbar. One method might use more wire than the other depending on how far your batteries are from the busbar.

2. Isn't it customary to put switches and fuses on the positive wire? I know that's customary for fuses, but not sure about switches. I put all of my switches on the positive side.
https://electronics.stackexchange.co...-terminal-of-a


2a. Since your battery shunt is downstream from the busbar, it'll only measure the load going to the power distribution center. If you attach any other circuits to the busbar in the future, they won't be monitored by the shunt. Your switch has some amount of load (because of resistance), too--however small--that won't get read by the shunt since the switch is upstream.

Victron shows the shunt as the very first connection coming off of the battery bank.


3. For balanced charging, opposite "ends" of the battery bank are supposed to go to the load (and the charger). I didn't do this, so I have some rewiring to do at some point.
https://www.iotaengineering.com/-/me...eBehavior=open


3a. If you have the battery terminals independently connected to the busbars, that might negate the need to do this, since it seems like both batteries would draw equally from the busbars. That's just a thought. I don't have the knowledge to give an authoritative answer.

How do you plan to get DC power to the junction box up on the tongue?

[bluztoo]

You need a lithium charger and your current is a Progressive Dynamics as in "PD." They make good chargers for lithium https://www.progressivedyn.com/pd9100l/
Most of the PD standard chargers have a "boost" mode and you can buy a cheap dongle for about $15. But the good PD two-stage lithium goes for about $200 on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Progressive-D...8721556&sr=8-2
I moved my batteries when I switched to lithium. My original two were under the steps (I have a class C). I moved them about ten feet and hooked up to the original junction. Didn't want to have to move all the other things. I'd go with 1/0 wire minimum but it depends on how far you move stuff. Also, if you put it under the bed you can likely use other connections. Good luck.

[MrKABC]

Bob K: You make some very good points. I'm attaching a revised diagram incorporating what you suggested. I use Microsoft Visio Professional 2019 for my diagrams (for work) and happened to remember it also has electrical symbols as well. Not free though unfortunately.

1) I have plenty of large gauge wire, but I thought that if both batteries were hooked up to the bus bars they would charge/discharge equally. I'm no electrical engineer so I honestly don't know if that will be an issue or not. I've seen pictures of other setups and they all seem to wire them battery to battery, but the end result appears to be the same for a parallel setup IMHO. Please correct me if I am wrong.

2) Made the change! Switch/fuse on positive side now. You're right. 200A fuse correct?

2a) I'm not planning to add an inverter. I have a Jackery and a generator so I don't see any other additions to this circuit at this time. A solar charge controller someday maybe? That controller would go to the bus bar anyways if I understand it correctly.

3) I hope by going directly to the bus bar to avoid this.

4) Since my current Group 24 battery box is located at the hitch, I plan to use the existing wires and just tie them in at the panel. I have the same distribution box you do (bought the one you have off Amazon) so I think that's do-able.

I think I'm going to give up on the WFCO panel and just get the Progressive Dynamics 4135k. The only retailer that seems to "carry" the WFCO 8735LiS is this one and their site has said "out of stock" since I have started looking last year.

https://www.boatandrvaccessories.com...-service-black

I don't want to hassle with charging the LiPos based on what I am reading in your other thread and I certainly don't want them discharging when I'm on my generator or shore power so I think I'll just rip off the bandaid and do it all in one big blast.

Can you think of anything else I might be missing?

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by MrKABC

Bob K: You make some very good points. I'm attaching a revised diagram incorporating what you suggested. I use Microsoft Visio Professional 2019 for my diagrams (for work) and happened to remember it also has electrical symbols as well. Not free though unfortunately.

1) I have plenty of large gauge wire, but I thought that if both batteries were hooked up to the bus bars they would charge/discharge equally. I'm no electrical engineer so I honestly don't know if that will be an issue or not. I've seen pictures of other setups and they all seem to wire them battery to battery, but the end result appears to be the same for a parallel setup IMHO. Please correct me if I am wrong.

2) Made the change! Switch/fuse on positive side now. You're right. 200A fuse correct?

2a) I'm not planning to add an inverter. I have a Jackery and a generator so I don't see any other additions to this circuit at this time. A solar charge controller someday maybe? That controller would go to the bus bar anyways if I understand it correctly.

3) I hope by going directly to the bus bar to avoid this.

4) Since my current Group 24 battery box is located at the hitch, I plan to use the existing wires and just tie them in at the panel. I have the same distribution box you do (bought the one you have off Amazon) so I think that's do-able.

I think I'm going to give up on the WFCO panel and just get the Progressive Dynamics 4135k. The only retailer that seems to "carry" the WFCO 8735LiS is this one and their site has said "out of stock" since I have started looking last year.

https://www.boatandrvaccessories.com...-service-black

I don't want to hassle with charging the LiPos based on what I am reading in your other thread and I certainly don't want them discharging when I'm on my generator or shore power so I think I'll just rip off the bandaid and do it all in one big blast.

Can you think of anything else I might be missing?

1. Barring any other inputs, I'm inclined to believe that attaching both batteries independently to the busbar does indeed have the advantage of balanced draw and charge. I imagine that metal on the busbar simply being the piece of jumper wire that connects together two wires coming off of the negative terminals...as if I made a mistake and cut the wire too short & needed a little extension piece in order to tie the two terminals together. In this case, the "extension piece" just happens to be a metal bar.
   
   The one disadvantage to doing it this way is that you have a lot of unfused wire in your current schematic: Both positive wires to the busbar, the busbar, and the wire leading to the first fuse are all unfused. As long as the wires are sufficiently overrated and as short as possible, I don't see too much of a problem. After all, even in traditional parallel setups, the wires between terminals aren't typically fused.
   
   Also, if you attach anything else to the positive busbar in the future, it won't be protected by the master fuse or turned off by the master switch.
   
   
2. I sized my wires and circuit breakers according to the max load I expected on each circuit. My master circuit breaker is only 100 amps because I couldn't envision any scenario where I'd be putting more into or taking more out of the battery bank than that. In other words, I biased toward having the lowest circuit breaker possible. I'd rather have it trip than to withstand a short circuit load far above what my system would ever be pulling during normal circumstances. Do you have any circumstance where you'd actually be pulling or charging close to 200 amps?
   https://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f...tml#post972117
   
   Also, have you thought about putting in a circuit breaker rather than a fuse and a master switch? A circuit breaker can be manually tripped to behave just like a switch. One component that serves both purposes.
   
   
   Your current setup still has the battery shunt downstream from the busbar. The busbar theoretically has a load (because of resistance) that won't get read by the shunt. Additionally, future branch circuits--if attached to the negative busbar--won't get read by the shunt.
   
   
3. If you're not heavily wedded to the idea of attaching each battery independently to the busbars, I'd recommend going to a more traditional parallel setup where the battery terminals are connected together and then a single positive wire---->Master fuse------>Master switch. Then from the Master switch to the busbar (a mini power distribution panel). Then distribute power from your busbar to the branch circuits (each independently fused). The concern about imbalanced charge or draw can be mitigated by just attaching the positive and negative wires to opposite ends of the battery bank as indicated in that diagram above. I personally wouldn't want all the drawbacks of your current schematic (more unfused wires and components, drawbacks for future branch circuits, components not measured by the battery shunt, etc.) just to gain the advantage of balanced charging, especially when unbalanced charging in a traditional wiring setup can be mitigated just by connecting the opposite ends of my battery bank to the busbars.

[MrKABC]

OK, let's try this on for size!

@BobK: I changed the diagram to wire the batteries like you said, what do you think?

I ordered the Progressive Dynamics 4135 panel so I will replace my WFCO when I do the batteries. Got tired of waiting for the WFCO LiS vaporware panel.

I'm also going to use this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KOTALG...lig_dp_it&th=1

As the fuse. It's a Blue Sea Systems 100ADC circuit breaker.

Does this setup look like it would work?

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by MrKABC

OK, let's try this on for size!

@BobK: I changed the diagram to wire the batteries like you said, what do you think?

I ordered the Progressive Dynamics 4135 panel so I will replace my WFCO when I do the batteries. Got tired of waiting for the WFCO LiS vaporware panel.

I'm also going to use this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KOTALG...lig_dp_it&th=1

As the fuse. It's a Blue Sea Systems 100ADC circuit breaker.

Does this setup look like it would work?

I'm just one opinion, but that looks spot on to me. That circuit breaker is pretty snazzy, too. The wires from the batteries to the busbars just needs to be capable of handling your maximum master circuit breaker load...100 amps.

[Pacman1214]

Originally Posted by MrKABC

OK, let's try this on for size!

@BobK: I changed the diagram to wire the batteries like you said, what do you think?

I ordered the Progressive Dynamics 4135 panel so I will replace my WFCO when I do the batteries. Got tired of waiting for the WFCO LiS vaporware panel.

I'm also going to use this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KOTALG...lig_dp_it&th=1

As the fuse. It's a Blue Sea Systems 100ADC circuit breaker.

Does this setup look like it would work?

I'm far from an expert, but through my research on solar that seems pretty much spot on. The only thing I would change would be to switch the negative (or positive) lead to the opposite battery. +Bus to +batt1 jumper to +batt2, -bus to -batt2 jumper to -batt1. Should help keep the batteries balanced better. In a smallish setup with 2 batteries like yours it may not matter or make much difference, but in a 3 or more battery system it will. Is that what you were thinking about using the buss bars for originally?

On a converter side note, my dealer did a lithium upgrade on my trailer which included a 55 amp converter replacement and cutting the main power from the 7 pin so the trailer doesn't try to power my TV. They did not replace the whole PDC, they just bypassed the integrated converter and installed a lithium converter behind it. It's a good idea for lithium capability without messing with the whole panel. I know you already ordered your PD panel so it's not much help now, but it may be an option for someone else.