Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
Jayco RV Owners Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-04-2017, 01:21 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 88
Enough Truck?

Hi Everyone,

Recently we upgraded to the 2017 White Hawk 28DSBH. The Unloaded Vehicle Weight is 6115, the Dry Hitch Weight is 680 and the Gross Vehicle Weight is 7500. Right now my TV is a Dodge Ram with the 5.7 Hemi with an Axle Ratio of 3.92. GVWR is 6900, Payload is 1510, GCWR is 13,800 and the Max Trailer Weight Rating is 7,990. Anyone think I'll run in to problems if I don't upgrade my truck. I know the numbers are close but everyone I've asked says the truck should be fine. All opinions are welcomed! Thank you in advance!
#1Remembories is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2017, 01:28 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: --
Posts: 2,392
Take the weight of your family, expected gear, and add 100 pounds for your WDH. Figure out what that number is. Subtract it from you 1510 payload. Take THAT number and divide it by .15. That's the MAX weight your truck is rated to pull assuming 15% tongue. Adjust your tongue down if you want.

Ex.

You + Wife + Kids = 500 pounds. 100 for WDH, that makes 600 pounds. 1510 - 600 = 910. Mind you there is no gear in the bed of your truck for this example.

910/.15 = 6066 pounds max.

If you want to hedge a little and try 14% tongue:
910/.14 = 6500 pounds max
__________________
2023 Ford F-150 XLT SCREW 3.5EB (Max Tow Pkg., Black Appearance Pkg., Bed Utility Pkg.)
1727 Payload / 4150 RAWR

On the sidelines taking it all in.


Jopopsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2017, 01:36 PM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jopopsy View Post
Take the weight of your family, expected gear, and add 100 pounds for your WDH. Figure out what that number is. Subtract it from you 1510 payload. Take THAT number and divide it by .15. That's the MAX weight your truck is rated to pull assuming 15% tongue. Adjust your tongue down if you want.

Ex.

You + Wife + Kids = 500 pounds. 100 for WDH, that makes 600 pounds. 1510 - 600 = 910. Mind you there is no gear in the bed of your truck for this example.

910/.15 = 6066 pounds max.

If you want to hedge a little and try 14% tongue:
910/.14 = 6500 pounds max
Thanks Jopopsy, I didn't want to have to buy another TV if I didn't have to.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
#1Remembories is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2017, 02:26 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Dale Hollow Lake Tn/Ky
Posts: 2,525
Factoring in the loaded weight, you'll most likely be heavy on the limit. A big factor on your decision, at least in the short run, is what kind of travel do you expect to undertake? 150 =/- mile trips to a near by state park and driving in flat or slightly hilly geography and you'll be OK as long as you pack as lightly as possible and keep speed down. Others will say you will be unsafe to yourself or the other travelers on the road near you. I can only say I have towed over my limit many times when younger pulling a pup with a straight 6 in a station wagon fully loaded with family and gear. Finally gave that vehicle to good will years later with95k miles and after 2 teen drivers cut their teeth on it.

I upgraded to a White Hawk 30DSRE a few years ago when I had a half ton Silverado. I knew I was over limits and upgraded to a 2500Hd after a few months. No doubt in my mind I could have towed safely if all I was planning was short trips. Being retired and plans for multi week trips, the upgrade was a given.
Bassdogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2017, 02:37 PM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassdogs View Post
Factoring in the loaded weight, you'll most likely be heavy on the limit. A big factor on your decision, at least in the short run, is what kind of travel do you expect to undertake? 150 =/- mile trips to a near by state park and driving in flat or slightly hilly geography and you'll be OK as long as you pack as lightly as possible and keep speed down. Others will say you will be unsafe to yourself or the other travelers on the road near you. I can only say I have towed over my limit many times when younger pulling a pup with a straight 6 in a station wagon fully loaded with family and gear. Finally gave that vehicle to good will years later with95k miles and after 2 teen drivers cut their teeth on it.

I upgraded to a White Hawk 30DSRE a few years ago when I had a half ton Silverado. I knew I was over limits and upgraded to a 2500Hd after a few months. No doubt in my mind I could have towed safely if all I was planning was short trips. Being retired and plans for multi week trips, the upgrade was a given.
Thanks Bassdog! We're going to the site we're staying at next year for the season, this weekend. It's about an hour and 20 minutes drive from home to use and make sure everything works in the trailer. Next year we'll be leaving the trailer there for the season. It will give me an idea how it tows. I pulled it about 2 and a half hours from the dealership with no issues. I don't really want to put out the money for a 2500 although I would if it meant keeping my family and everyone out there safe. I was thinking of possibly, if I had to upgrade, get the 15000 Ram with the 3.92 axle ratio. It's supposed to pull 10,000lbs.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
#1Remembories is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2017, 04:49 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
ALJO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Sparwood, BC
Posts: 2,800
Send a message via Skype™ to ALJO
I debated with myself about the issue of 1/2 ton or 3/4 too. I choose half ton as it has the softer ride and installed the Air-Lift 1000 in the coils to stay level. My TW is around 900 lbs. I use a 1200 lbs. WDH bars with dual sway control. The sway control more due to the wind.
__________________
2014 Ram 1500 CrewCab 4x4 5.7 Hemi 3.92 Rear and Air Lift 1000
2005 Jayco Jay Feather LGT - 29Y GVWR-7000 lbs.
Dexter Axle Lift 4-9/16" - installed with sub-frame.
Pro Series 1200 lbs. WDH with Double Sway Bar.
Champion 3100/2800 watt Inverter/Generator-Onboard Solar Power
ALJO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2017, 05:01 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALJO View Post
I debated with myself about the issue of 1/2 ton or 3/4 too. I choose half ton as it has the softer ride and installed the Air-Lift 1000 in the coils to stay level. My TW is around 900 lbs. I use a 1200 lbs. WDH bars with dual sway control. The sway control more due to the wind.
Hi ALJO, I'm considering air bags for my truck to work with my weight distribution system. I have the Equalizer system that works really well. Going on the first camping trip in the new trailer loaded and I'll see how it works out.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
#1Remembories is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2017, 06:19 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
ALJO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Sparwood, BC
Posts: 2,800
Send a message via Skype™ to ALJO
Air-Lift 1000 (or Firestone) is a very easy install. Jack under the frame and just loose the shock bottom bolt; jack under the axle and lower the axle, remove spring and slip the air-bag in. Install the airline and re-install the spring and jack up the axle and install the shock bolt. Do the same thing for the other side. Takes about an hour.
Don't try the suggested in the manual; to fold it through the spring, because it might damage the bag.
__________________
2014 Ram 1500 CrewCab 4x4 5.7 Hemi 3.92 Rear and Air Lift 1000
2005 Jayco Jay Feather LGT - 29Y GVWR-7000 lbs.
Dexter Axle Lift 4-9/16" - installed with sub-frame.
Pro Series 1200 lbs. WDH with Double Sway Bar.
Champion 3100/2800 watt Inverter/Generator-Onboard Solar Power
ALJO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2017, 07:04 PM   #9
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALJO View Post
Air-Lift 1000 (or Firestone) is a very easy install. Jack under the frame and just loose the shock bottom bolt; jack under the axle and lower the axle, remove spring and slip the air-bag in. Install the airline and re-install the spring and jack up the axle and install the shock bolt. Do the same thing for the other side. Takes about an hour.
Don't try the suggested in the manual; to fold it through the spring, because it might damage the bag.
Thanks ALJO, I'm going to look into them! I won't be camping after this weekend so I'll take it easy on the roads and get it done before next season.

Sent from my STV100-1 using Tapatalk
#1Remembories is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2017, 05:05 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Kirkland
Posts: 193
It's not always "can my truck pull this trailer"... more often it becomes "can my truck STOP this trailer".

We upgraded after sliding through a few stoplights - on downhill grades in the rain - even though our truck was fully rated for the weight. There may have been some other tweaks we could have done to help - like bumping up the trailer brake signal - but we both enjoyed the added amenities of the newer truck, too.
__________________
Tina & Dave
plus the co-pilot Denna (english mastiff)
2015 Seneca 37TS
crumgater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2017, 07:51 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Dale Hollow Lake Tn/Ky
Posts: 2,525
Quote:
Originally Posted by crumgater View Post
It's not always "can my truck pull this trailer"... more often it becomes "can my truck STOP this trailer".

We upgraded after sliding through a few stoplights - on downhill grades in the rain - even though our truck was fully rated for the weight. There may have been some other tweaks we could have done to help - like bumping up the trailer brake signal - but we both enjoyed the added amenities of the newer truck, too.
Main tweak would be to adjust the brake controller. Unless the wheels were locked, which you don't want, the controller s/b adjusted to lock the wheels and then back off one number. The trailer s/b be able to pretty much stop itself or at least take most of the push out of the TT.

This guy is going to a seasonal site next year so he sure doesn't need to go out now and upgrade to a 3/4 ton.
Bassdogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2017, 08:14 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Nukeneck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Northern Nevada
Posts: 277
You'll be fine. I have the same exact trailer (2015) and pull it with a '14 F150 eco Lariat. My payload is actually a tad lower than yours by about 100#. I've added Firestone ride rite airbags and E rated Michelins to help with the ride. Truck pulls and stops fine. Just don't drive like you needed to get there yesterday. I'm right at or just above my truck's specified limits. I try and distribute any items into the trailer and not the bed so as to exceed the truck's payload. If I were a full timer, I'd probably buy a 3/4 ton but this is my daily driver and unfortunately we don't camp as much as we would like to in the summer
__________________
2015 Jayco White Hawk 28dsbh
2014 Ford F150 4x4 w/Ecoboost
H/D tow package

2005 Forest River Rockwood 2601 (Sold)
2011 Ford Expedition XLT (Sold)
2008 Jeep Wrangler (Just for fun!)
Nukeneck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 09:01 AM   #13
Lost in the Woods
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by #1Remembories View Post
Hi Everyone,

Recently we upgraded to the 2017 White Hawk 28DSBH. The Unloaded Vehicle Weight is 6115, the Dry Hitch Weight is 680 and the Gross Vehicle Weight is 7500. Right now my TV is a Dodge Ram with the 5.7 Hemi with an Axle Ratio of 3.92. GVWR is 6900, Payload is 1510, GCWR is 13,800 and the Max Trailer Weight Rating is 7,990. Anyone think I'll run in to problems if I don't upgrade my truck. I know the numbers are close but everyone I've asked says the truck should be fine. All opinions are welcomed! Thank you in advance!


I tow a slightly heavier trailer with a bit more payload on my F150 and my setup is safe and solid as a rock in a wide variety of weather and wind conditions, although I have not yet towed through hurricane winds. Again this spring I went on an 3600 mile round-trip to Florida and back this spring and the setup was relaxed and stable. Always able to hold the speed limit through the Pa and Va mountains unless I was stuck behind a semi that could not maintain the speed limit.

You will be fine for power as you'll have similar torque to the gas 250/2500's, but you'll have to be careful with your tongue weights and loading to ensure you are properly setup as you have less payload to work with. Those that are having stability problems while towing within their manufacturer ratings don't know how to properly adjust their setups. Trailer brakes stop trailers and 250/2500's do not stop trucks and trailers in shorter distances. This is an internet myth and if you are sliding through intersections you are A) driving too fast; B) have improper tongue weight; C) Don't know how to adjust your brake controller; and/or D) are severely overloaded.

Consensus is that 12-15% hitch weight is recommended and I have found that my ideal hitch weight is right around 11 to 12 % with my Propride hitch. If you have any concerns about stability look into a Propride/Hensley hitch. Towed for 3 full seasons now and would not tow without it. They are a bit more $$ than other WD hitches but, but much cheaper than the loss on a trade for a 2500 and well worth the piece of mind when you are pulling in the upper limits of your TV. The Propride/Hensley also do an excellent job of distributing weight to the TV front axle and trailer axles. The weight of the WD hitch is included in your 12-15% recommended weight, not in addition to the 12-15% of your loaded trailer weight.

My setup is based on the actual loaded weight of my trailer, not the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating which is over 2000lbs more than my actual loaded weight, but I do not travel with filled fresh water tanks.

Airbags won't increase your payload but they definitely help handle the load in the upper limits of your TV and they will increase the lifespan on the rear shocks of your TV. When it comes time for new TV tires, consider the small additional cost of LT tires. Again they won't increase maximum ratings but they will handle weights in the upper limits TV much better than the P-rated tires your 1500 came from the factory with.
Ottawasteve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 09:48 AM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukeneck View Post
You'll be fine. I have the same exact trailer (2015) and pull it with a '14 F150 eco Lariat. My payload is actually a tad lower than yours by about 100#. I've added Firestone ride rite airbags and E rated Michelins to help with the ride. Truck pulls and stops fine. Just don't drive like you needed to get there yesterday. I'm right at or just above my truck's specified limits. I try and distribute any items into the trailer and not the bed so as to exceed the truck's payload. If I were a full timer, I'd probably buy a 3/4 ton but this is my daily driver and unfortunately we don't camp as much as we would like to in the summer
Thanks for your input Nukeneck, we're gong out on our first trip with the trailer with a load camping. We wanted to take it out at lease the one time to make sure the trailer is functioning properly. Sounds like we do about the same amount of camping although we'll be doing more next year at our new seasonal site. I appreciate all the great advice I get on this forum!

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
#1Remembories is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 09:56 AM   #15
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawasteve View Post
I tow a slightly heavier trailer with a bit more payload on my F150 and my setup is safe and solid as a rock in a wide variety of weather and wind conditions, although I have not yet towed through hurricane winds. Again this spring I went on an 3600 mile round-trip to Florida and back this spring and the setup was relaxed and stable. Always able to hold the speed limit through the Pa and Va mountains unless I was stuck behind a semi that could not maintain the speed limit.

You will be fine for power as you'll have similar torque to the gas 250/2500's, but you'll have to be careful with your tongue weights and loading to ensure you are properly setup as you have less payload to work with. Those that are having stability problems while towing within their manufacturer ratings don't know how to properly adjust their setups. Trailer brakes stop trailers and 250/2500's do not stop trucks and trailers in shorter distances. This is an internet myth and if you are sliding through intersections you are A) driving too fast; B) have improper tongue weight; C) Don't know how to adjust your brake controller; and/or D) are severely overloaded.

Consensus is that 12-15% hitch weight is recommended and I have found that my ideal hitch weight is right around 11 to 12 % with my Propride hitch. If you have any concerns about stability look into a Propride/Hensley hitch. Towed for 3 full seasons now and would not tow without it. They are a bit more $$ than other WD hitches but, but much cheaper than the loss on a trade for a 2500 and well worth the piece of mind when you are pulling in the upper limits of your TV. The Propride/Hensley also do an excellent job of distributing weight to the TV front axle and trailer axles. The weight of the WD hitch is included in your 12-15% recommended weight, not in addition to the 12-15% of your loaded trailer weight.

My setup is based on the actual loaded weight of my trailer, not the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating which is over 2000lbs more than my actual loaded weight, but I do not travel with filled fresh water tanks.

Airbags won't increase your payload but they definitely help handle the load in the upper limits of your TV and they will increase the lifespan on the rear shocks of your TV. When it comes time for new TV tires, consider the small additional cost of LT tires. Again they won't increase maximum ratings but they will handle weights in the upper limits TV much better than the P-rated tires your 1500 came from the factory with.
Thanks Ottawasteve, first trip with the loaded trailer this weekend! Going to take it easy and get there and back safe! I'll let everyone know how everything went when we get back! Hopefully I'll get to keep and not have to trade my truck in for a 3/4 ton! Great comments and advice on Jayco Forums! Lots of great people camping!🖒

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
#1Remembories is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 11:11 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
Dustdevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Orange County
Posts: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jopopsy View Post
Take the weight of your family, expected gear, and add 100 pounds for your WDH. Figure out what that number is. Subtract it from you 1510 payload. Take THAT number and divide it by .15. That's the MAX weight your truck is rated to pull assuming 15% tongue. Adjust your tongue down if you want.

Ex.

You + Wife + Kids = 500 pounds. 100 for WDH, that makes 600 pounds. 1510 - 600 = 910. Mind you there is no gear in the bed of your truck for this example.

910/.15 = 6066 pounds max.

If you want to hedge a little and try 14% tongue:
910/.14 = 6500 pounds max
I haven't seen this done quite this way, but it makes complete sense. I have a motorhome now. But I tow a toad. I have towed trailers since I was 16 years old, and I am a big fan of having enough truck to properly and safely handle the weight of the trailer. I've done it the other way, and it takes the fun out of trips because you have to drive like you're strapped to the hood all the time. Gotta pay hyper-attention to what you are doing all the time, else it's just not safe. Easier to relax when all is adequate for the loads involved.

It sometimes doesn't really make as much of an impact until you do have the right TV with ample safety factor in its capabilities. With our toy hauler trailer, I used to pull it with a 3/4 ton 4X4 Chevy Suburban with the big block and towing package. I just put up with the poor handling and mediocre braking capability of that vehicle, even though it was my best choice to date at that time, and just wound up the trailer brake controller to compensate. I also remained very patient on long climbs, because I had an engine that was pretty gutless for a big block, and it paid not to get in too much of a hurry. Then I switched to a Duramax/Allison crew cab 4X4 pickup with about twice the GCWR as the suburban, and twice the drivetrain. Even the distance between the rear axle and the ball for the hitch was much shorter, and made a world of difference, along with the added braking capability. Like night and day, and driving with a 10,000-lb trailer was a joy.

To the OP: You don't necessarily need to be in a huge hurry to upgrade your TV, but you won't ever skimp on that part of the rig ever again once you truly get the right TV, regardless of brand. You will be amazed at the difference.
__________________
2006 Jayco Seneca 34SS
2006 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Toad
Dustdevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 11:17 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
Dustdevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Orange County
Posts: 644
BTW, the above is one of the main reasons we selected a Super C on a truck chassis instead of a Class A on a purpose-built chassis. The truck chassis just isn't quite as comfortable to drive (ie: not as "cushy") as the Class A units. But it is awesome in the control and fatigue department. I can drive this Seneca all day long. And I understand my first generation isn't even as good as the newer M2 Freightliners. Having more chassis rigidity, power, braking capability, and strength does make a difference.
__________________
2006 Jayco Seneca 34SS
2006 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon Toad
Dustdevil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2017, 03:37 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 857
We have a very similar Ram with 1,600lbs. of payload. I will not pull a trailer the size that you are talking about. It "can" do it, but IMHO, I would not nor do I think I should.
FeatherFam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2017, 07:38 AM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Pembroke, NY
Posts: 181
I pull our 2017 28 DSBH with a 2001 F-150 shorty. I have the 5.4 engine and my payload is 1,782 lbs. I travel with only 2 people in the cab, 4 bicycles, a tool box, and a grill in the bed and I'm just about at my max payload. The trailer dry weight is about 6,400 lbs and I have the big propane tanks and dual 6v batteries on the tongue so my tongue weight is more likely heavier than your 28 DSBH. You will be close on payload, probably exceeding rating but you will have more than enough pulling power with that engine and rear end and braking won't be an issue if you have your trailer brakes setup properly. Invest time in setting up your hitch properly and take it to a truck scale to verify your weights. The 28 DSBH tows very nicely.
Attached Thumbnails
IMG_3059.jpg  
__________________


2001 Ford F-150 4x4 5.4

2012 Prime Time Tracer 2670BHS (sold)
2017 White Hawk 28DSBH (*Special Ordered w/ almost all the options in 10/16. Delivered on 5/19/17)
oldnnew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2017, 09:45 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
SOMBATFAMILY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Frederick
Posts: 261
Quote:
Originally Posted by #1Remembories View Post
Hi Everyone,

Recently we upgraded to the 2017 White Hawk 28DSBH. The Unloaded Vehicle Weight is 6115, the Dry Hitch Weight is 680 and the Gross Vehicle Weight is 7500. Right now my TV is a Dodge Ram with the 5.7 Hemi with an Axle Ratio of 3.92. GVWR is 6900, Payload is 1510, GCWR is 13,800 and the Max Trailer Weight Rating is 7,990. Anyone think I'll run in to problems if I don't upgrade my truck. I know the numbers are close but everyone I've asked says the truck should be fine. All opinions are welcomed! Thank you in advance!
Your setup should be fine. I have a heavy GVWR trailer but the heaviest we loaded have been about 8,500lbs and our TV payload is 1230lbs and we gone over that number. My TV axles are rated for 4000 lbs in the front and 4250lbs in the rear. I towed about 5000 miles so far in NY, VA, PA, NJ,MD, TN and OH mountains. I have plenty of power for the East Coast mountains and no problem braking. No sway. MPG is 10 less when towing but it is expected. Never towed with anything else and can't imagine it towing any better.
__________________
Sombat family
2008 Toyota Sequoia Limited
2017 Jay Flight 28BHBE
mod: Dimming awning
Dimming Floor light
Shocks
Custom bike/kayak rack
SOMBATFAMILY is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Jayco, Inc. or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2002-2016 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.