Lithium battery in the Jay Feather Micro’s?

[Larry Mac]

Before I discuss what Lithium battery, I first want to know if the converter that is installed with the 190 w solar panels is compatible with Lithium batteries already, or do I have to upgrade that as well. Some threads are suggesting a drop in Lithium would be good. I would never trust myself, so there would be I assume significant labor $ involved with that, much more than just a drop in Lithium. (btw, trailer has just recently been ordered)

[kiqman]

Originally Posted by Larry Mac

Before I discuss what Lithium battery, I first want to know if the converter that is installed with the 190 w solar panels is compatible with Lithium batteries already, or do I have to upgrade that as well. Some threads are suggesting a drop in Lithium would be good. I would never trust myself, so there would be I assume significant labor $ involved with that, much more than just a drop in Lithium. (btw, trailer has just recently been ordered)

The converter charger below your sink (wf-8735p) is not lithium compatible, but your solar charge controller on the wall near the bathroom (gp-pmw-30-sq) is lithium compatible.
No issues charging a lithium with the 8735, it just won't get a lithium 100% full. The solar charge controller however, will.
You can also plug a lithium compatible charge controller with solar panel into the go-power port on the driver's side of the tongue to fully charge a lithium.

[Larry Mac]

Originally Posted by kiqman

The converter charger below your sink (wf-8735p) is not lithium compatible, but your solar charge controller on the wall near the bathroom (gp-pmw-30-sq) is lithium compatible.
No issues charging a lithium with the 8735, it just won't get a lithium 100% full. The solar charge controller however, will.
You can also plug a lithium compatible charge controller with solar panel into the go-power port on the driver's side of the tongue to fully charge a lithium.

thanks for your expertise! So there’s hope. Your last statement sounds cheaper, but is it the best? Would it be best to replace the converter with a lithium compatible version? Would it still be compatible with the solar controller?
If so, do you know any recommendations for an upgrade of the the converter to do this?

[RogerR]

I had a similar problem in that my 195RB factory battery charger was for flooded lead acid and would not charge a lithium battery beyond 80 to 85%.

Renogy told me that by using a solar panel with a MPPT solar controller will top it up to 100% if sun power was available.


Renogy's reassurance that no harm would come to the battery convinced me to get 200 watts for my occasional long weekends and traveling stops with no fear of running my old flooded battery down and killing it (again).


Plus a 100 amp lithium will give almost as much power as 2 group 27 flooded batteries at a fraction of the weight.

[ARoamer]

If you're using a 100ah lithium and have 190 watts of solar with a lithium compatible charge controller I wouldn't be worried about your converter. I never turn my breaker on for my non lithium converter and let the solar do it's thing. Even if you did need a charge and it only gets to 80 percent you're still better off than a 100ah lead acid. Plus, only charging a lithium to 80 percent will likely prolong it's life. You can always install a lithium compatible converter later if you need that extra 20 percent.

[Larry Mac]

Originally Posted by RogerR

I had a similar problem in that my 195RB factory battery charger was for flooded lead acid and would not charge a lithium battery beyond 80 to 85%.

Renogy told me that by using a solar panel with a MPPT solar controller will top it up to 100% if sun power was available.


Renogy's reassurance that no harm would come to the battery convinced me to get 200 watts for my occasional long weekends and traveling stops with no fear of running my old flooded battery down and killing it (again).


Plus a 100 amp lithium will give almost as much power as 2 group 27 flooded batteries at a fraction of the weight.

What is a MPPT solar controller? Is that what’s in the 190 watt solar system in the Jayfeather Micro TT’s?

[ARoamer]

Originally Posted by Larry Mac

What is a MPPT solar controller? Is that what’s in the 190 watt solar system in the Jayfeather Micro TT’s?

A MPPT solar controller is a more efficient and expensive type of solar controller. PMW is a cheaper and somewhat less efficient controller.

[Larry Mac]

Originally Posted by ARoamer

A MPPT solar controller is a more efficient and expensive type of solar controller. PMW is a cheaper and somewhat less efficient controller.

So what you are saying is that the Solar controller in the Micro is the PMW?

[ARoamer]

I do not know what the installed controller is, but kiqman says it's a PMW.

Originally Posted by kiqman
The converter charger below your sink (wf-8735p) is not lithium compatible, but your solar charge controller on the wall near the bathroom (gp-pmw-30-sq) is lithium compatible.

[Larry Mac]

Will all the wires have to be changed to make it efficient with solar, or can you just rotate out solar control units? Also what would be best to do first— the converter or the controller?

[ARoamer]

Wires shoud be fine. Personally I'd use what you have and see if it's adequate for your needs.

[RogerR]

MPPT controllers produce about 20% more power to the battery charge because they are more efficient. They can also produce power when the solar array is shaded because of the way they can adjust voltage.



But -- they cost quite a bit more. I would try the PWM and see if it meets your needs but if you keep falling short an upgrade might be better than adding more panels.

Renogy gave me a good deal on the package and keeps sending me discounts I can share if you want. Last one was 7% off deal to share with a friend. Your welcome to that number if it is still active when/if you order.

http://73renogy.refr.cc/rogerraydon

[Larry Mac]

Originally Posted by ARoamer

Wires shoud be fine. Personally I'd use what you have and see if it's adequate for your needs.

Thank you.
Probably what I will do. Might just upgrade the battery.

[Larry Mac]

Originally Posted by RogerR

MPPT controllers produce about 20% more power to the battery charge because they are more efficient. They can also produce power when the solar array is shaded because of the way they can adjust voltage.



But -- they cost quite a bit more. I would try the PWM and see if it meets your needs but if you keep falling short an upgrade might be better than adding more panels.

Renogy gave me a good deal on the package and keeps sending me discounts I can share if you want. Last one was 7% off deal to share with a friend. Your welcome to that number if it is still active when/if you order.

http://73renogy.refr.cc/rogerraydon

What model did you get? I’m assuming all is well and you are happy.

[RogerR]

I got the 20 amp Rover MPPT charge controller. I think that 200 watts of panels are about the max it can take but that is all I will need based on my camping model. (no microwave or other AC products, gas fridge, water and furnace, we use for heat, led lights and laptop/phone charging. )

[Larry Mac]

Originally Posted by RogerR

I got the 20 amp Rover MPPT charge controller. I think that 200 watts of panels are about the max it can take but that is all I will need based on my camping model. (no microwave or other AC products, gas fridge, water and furnace, we use for heat, led lights and laptop/phone charging. )

Roger: what model/size Lithium battery do you have connected to your Rover?

[RogerR]

I currently have nothing in my RV as mine is in winter storage. I intend to buy a 100 amp Lithium to replace my aged Group 27 lead battery.

My kit includes wire from roof to inside the storage under the bed. i will put the Lithium battery near there also under the bed with the wires included with the bed. I will re-route the current wires connect to the tongue area battery box into the same area and to the battery via a cut off switch and a fuse. I will also have a cutoff and fuse between the solar and the MPPT Rover controller.

I have no intent to change my built in house controller.


I am looking at Chins or Ampere Time brands as they have good (not perfect) reviews and should serve my needs. I don't need low temp as I don't winter camp.

[Larry Mac]

Originally Posted by RogerR

I currently have nothing in my RV as mine is in winter storage. I intend to buy a 100 amp Lithium to replace my aged Group 27 lead battery.

My kit includes wire from roof to inside the storage under the bed. i will put the Lithium battery near there also under the bed with the wires included with the bed. I will re-route the current wires connect to the tongue area battery box into the same area and to the battery via a cut off switch and a fuse. I will also have a cutoff and fuse between the solar and the MPPT Rover controller.

I have no intent to change my built in house controller.


I am looking at Chins or Ampere Time brands as they have good (not perfect) reviews and should serve my needs. I don't need low temp as I don't winter camp.

That’s a great explanation— thank you for that! I don’t understand it, but with your explanation, probably my son will. LOL
Interesting that I had looked at Chin as well that were seemingly much more affordable yet I didn’t know enough to tell the difference between a Chin and Renogy that appear to have similar specs but one was twice as much as the other. I need to learn a lot more.

[TomC_AZ]

Larry,
Lots of good info on here so far, I would like to add to it in hopes it will help clear things up some more for you.

First, which model of jay feather micro do you have?

On the stock solar system - the 190w GoPower system has a PWM controller it is compatible with LiFePo4 batteries and has no issue charging a single battery.

A MPPT controller that has been mentioned will help in cloudy or shaded areas with a more efficient power generation/transfer to the batteries.

The stock WF-8735 power center will charge a LiFePo4 battery, just not to 100% so the solar has to make up for that. Swapping this out with a WF-8740LIS or 8740AD will charge up to 100%. But, be careful on this as I went to do this and found that WFCO and Jayco/Airstream custom made the powercenter in my 166FBS... it has a extra cable on it to allow charging of the battery even when the battery disconnect switch has been turned off. Jayco and WFCO told me that this is for those who store inside a garage and no solar.

On MPPT controllers most are sized in this way. Say you are looking at a Victron MPPT and its a 75/20 or 100/30 or 100/50. The first number is the amount of voltage it will handle. It does not show what its max wattage is, so you have to look at the company documents to find that. The 100/30 controller will do 100v but only 400w and will clip anymore above that or fry if too far above that wattage. The 100/50 will do 100v and 700w, meaning three 200w panels can be supported by the second but will be clipped on the first if it produces full power. The second number is the amount of amps it is capable of pushing out to the batteries, i.e. faster or slower charging. (of course amount of sun impacts this)

If you just want a single 100ah LiFePo4 battery dont worry about changing out the controller or the power center. But if you go with more batteries you will want to consider swapping one or both.

On batteries this can get "religious" but basically you have those with low temp cutoff and those who do not. Almost all cheap batteries do not have it, this will only come into play if the internal temp of the battery is below 32deg. Remember that it is not the same as the external air temp as the battery does make some heat when used and electrons flow. In most cases the ones with low temp cutoff are going to be $700+ for 100ah (a couple options exist that are lower). The next thing to look at is continuous charge and discharge amp rating. The nicer ones have at least 100amps for charge and can do 150-200amp or more continuous and higher for short periods. The ones that share this info also are sure of it, thus higher quality. Others dont share all of this info as its inferior or questionable.

Hope this helps and good luck, its a learning opportunity and can be fun and frustrating all at the same time.

[Larry Mac]

Originally Posted by TomC_AZ

Larry,
Lots of good info on here so far, I would like to add to it in hopes it will help clear things up some more for you.

First, which model of jay feather micro do you have?

On the stock solar system - the 190w GoPower system has a PWM controller it is compatible with LiFePo4 batteries and has no issue charging a single battery.

A MPPT controller that has been mentioned will help in cloudy or shaded areas with a more efficient power generation/transfer to the batteries.

The stock WF-8735 power center will charge a LiFePo4 battery, just not to 100% so the solar has to make up for that. Swapping this out with a WF-8740LIS or 8740AD will charge up to 100%. But, be careful on this as I went to do this and found that WFCO and Jayco/Airstream custom made the powercenter in my 166FBS... it has a extra cable on it to allow charging of the battery even when the battery disconnect switch has been turned off. Jayco and WFCO told me that this is for those who store inside a garage and no solar.

On MPPT controllers most are sized in this way. Say you are looking at a Victron MPPT and its a 75/20 or 100/30 or 100/50. The first number is the amount of voltage it will handle. It does not show what its max wattage is, so you have to look at the company documents to find that. The 100/30 controller will do 100v but only 400w and will clip anymore above that or fry if too far above that wattage. The 100/50 will do 100v and 700w, meaning three 200w panels can be supported by the second but will be clipped on the first if it produces full power. The second number is the amount of amps it is capable of pushing out to the batteries, i.e. faster or slower charging. (of course amount of sun impacts this)

If you just want a single 100ah LiFePo4 battery dont worry about changing out the controller or the power center. But if you go with more batteries you will want to consider swapping one or both.

On batteries this can get "religious" but basically you have those with low temp cutoff and those who do not. Almost all cheap batteries do not have it, this will only come into play if the internal temp of the battery is below 32deg. Remember that it is not the same as the external air temp as the battery does make some heat when used and electrons flow. In most cases the ones with low temp cutoff are going to be $700+ for 100ah (a couple options exist that are lower). The next thing to look at is continuous charge and discharge amp rating. The nicer ones have at least 100amps for charge and can do 150-200amp or more continuous and higher for short periods. The ones that share this info also are sure of it, thus higher quality. Others dont share all of this info as its inferior or questionable.

Hope this helps and good luck, its a learning opportunity and can be fun and frustrating all at the same time.

Very helpful Tom. Thanks very much for your time and experience.We have ordered the Jayco Jayfeather Micro 199 mbs. Obviously first timers. I may wait awhile— like maybe 6 months before making significant decisions now that I have put my toes in the Lithium battery/solar ocean which is very big and deep— and pricey. I guess by then we should have an idea on what we need. My F150 is the Hybrid so we will always have the on board generator for emergencies or even off the grid. It will run the entire 30 amp Micro 199 mbs. But I still would be interested in upgrading either solar and/or the battery, so if you don’t mind, I’ll check back with you later. I do have two questions for now. I’ve read ( or saw on you tube) where people have said you can store your Lithium batteries inside your RV.
Our Micro 199 mbs has very limited storage especially inside so the DW may balk at losing any for a battery.
Is the reason people have mentioned that inside Lithium storage because of the extreme value of those systems leading to vandals and thief’s if left in the normal battery compartment behind the propane outside?
Second question is when you get lists of like the top 10 batteries on Google there will be some in the $350 category and others in the $700 and above range. After reading your post, I have a little better understanding of why there is a difference now. But would it be worth, just to start with, trying to get credit for the “starter” battery and applying it to one of those $350 type Lithium’s just to start. And then 6 months later, if we feel it’s needed, add another better Lithium and upgrade the converter and solar controller? What do you think? Thanks again, Tom