Jayco RV Owners Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-18-2017, 10:26 AM   #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bend
Posts: 15
Safe to decrease tongue weight from 14.5% to 12.5%?

I'm towing a 2007 213 Exp behind a 2014 Grand Cherokee with the 5.7L V8. It tows fine for the most part. I feel the vacuum feeling sucking me to the side when cars pass which I assume would be lessened with a longer wheel base on the tow vehicle but I've never towed with anything else.

I would like to re-balance my trailer because the tongue weight I'm measuring is 695 lbs when the trailer is loaded to 4800 pounds. That comes out to 14.5% of the trailers weight on the tongue.

I know it is generally not a good idea to start making changes to trailer balance but since my trailer is near the extreme end of acceptable tongue weight (10-15% rule of thumb) would I be causing issues by moving weight back to reduce tongue weight to something more suited for my Jeep? I'm thinking about shooting for 13%. I would just move gear towards the back but the storage in this trailer is all right at the front under the bunks.

Another member pointed out that putting in mass way in the rear of the trailer has an effect on swaying separate from the effect on reduction on tongue weight. To eliminate that scenario when I move weight from the front of the trailer back I would place it over the axles. That said I know some trailers have the storage in the back and start out with overly heavy tongues that balance out when the gear is the back of the trailer.

I don't think balancing your trailer properly with gear placement is anything new but I think I raised a red flag when I said what I would like to do is move my battery and spare tire from the tongue to the back of the trailer permanently. If I moved them to the axle that would take 75 lbs off the tongue. If I moved it to the far rear that would maybe take 100 lbs off the tongue. This would still leave me around 600 lbs on the tongue which would be about 12.5% on the tongue.

My goal is to leave a little margin on my jeep's max tongue weight of 720 lbs and leave some room for driving with waste tanks full when there is not a dump station available. With full waste tanks I'm probably over the 15% rule of thumb which doesn't seem safe to me.My fresh water is over the axles and both waste tanks are forward of the axles.

Am I overlooking something or is this safe to do and basically the same thing as moving gear around to balance my trailer?
__________________

pitchlynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2017, 11:37 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Posts: 1,542
You state "I feel the vacuum feeling sucking me to the side when cars pass"


If you feel it when cars pass it must drive you nuts when a semi passes you


I did not notice if you are using sway bars or not. If not I suggest you use them.


Something that I do and you may want to try When a vehicle is passing me and I feel like I am being sucked over I will increase my speed about 2-3 MPH This will not interfere with the vehicle that is passing you but it will help to decrease the vacuum between the two vehicles


Also keeping as far to the right of your lane as safely possible will help.
__________________

__________________
2004 Jay Feather 25E
2001 Ford Expedition 4X4 EB 5.4 3.55 rear
2004 Ford Expedition 4X4 EB 5.4 3.73 rear
bedrck46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2017, 11:51 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
oldmanAZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: AZ
Posts: 6,873
It's good you're concerned about safety and checking the actual weights and capacities of your TT and TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchlynn View Post
I'm towing a 2007 213 Exp behind a 2014 Grand Cherokee with the 5.7L V8. It tows fine for the most part. I feel the vacuum feeling sucking me to the side when cars pass which I assume would be lessened with a longer wheel base on the tow vehicle but I've never towed with anything else.
** In a previous post your sway sounded more serious than the above 'sucking'. Yes, a longer wheelbase would help, but so would an anti-sway component (built in or added on) as part of the hitch and increasing TT and TV tire pressures.

I would like to re-balance my trailer because the tongue weight I'm measuring is 695 lbs when the trailer is loaded to 4800 pounds. That comes out to 14.5% of the trailers weight on the tongue.

I know it is generally not a good idea to start making changes to trailer balance but since my trailer is near the extreme end of acceptable tongue weight (10-15% rule of thumb) would I be causing issues by moving weight back to reduce tongue weight to something more suited for my Jeep? I'm thinking about shooting for 13%. I would just move gear towards the back but the storage in this trailer is all right at the front under the bunks.
** Do you have a dinette in your TT and is there storage under those seats?

Another member pointed out that putting in mass way in the rear of the trailer has an effect on swaying separate from the effect on reduction on tongue weight. To eliminate that scenario when I move weight from the front of the trailer back I would place it over the axles. That said I know some trailers have the storage in the back and start out with overly heavy tongues that balance out when the gear is the back of the trailer.

I don't think balancing your trailer properly with gear placement is anything new but I think I raised a red flag when I said what I would like to do is move my battery and spare tire from the tongue to the back of the trailer permanently. If I moved them to the axle that would take 75 lbs off the tongue. If I moved it to the far rear that would maybe take 100 lbs off the tongue. This would still leave me around 600 lbs on the tongue which would be about 12.5% on the tongue.
** My concern was moving mass to the rear of your TT when it seemed sway was already an issue for you.

My goal is to leave a little margin on my jeep's max tongue weight of 720 lbs and leave some room for driving with waste tanks full when there is not a dump station available. With full waste tanks I'm probably over the 15% rule of thumb which doesn't seem safe to me.My fresh water is over the axles and both waste tanks are forward of the axles.
** As long as other weight limits (hitch, receiver, TV) are not exceeded, going over %15 tongue weight is not moving into an 'unsafe' realm; generally the greater % of tongue weight the less tendency for sway. It sounds like most of your camping is boondocking and you need a dump station when you are in route home or to your next site, not long stretches with full waste tanks. Is that true? BTW, when boondocking, there are places where dumping gray water is permitted and I believe your gray tank is larger than your black tank.


Am I overlooking something or is this safe to do and basically the same thing as moving gear around to balance my trailer?
** IMO, you are being cautious and methodical and haven't overlooked things.
__________________
Sherm & Terry w/rescues Eydie (min Schnauzer) Steve RIP (std Poodle)
2015 Jay Flight 27RLS (Camped: 102 nights '15, 90 nights '16, 70 nights '17 so far)
2006 Ford F350 6.0 PSD, Lariat, 4WD, CC, LB, SRW, auto., Camper pkg.
oldmanAZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2017, 11:52 AM   #4
dee
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mckinney
Posts: 23
My opinion is you are playing with Fire. You can find several TT accidents on YouTube and many of them have stuff mounted on the rear bumper. I tend to believe that you are compounding the issue of a marginal tow vehicle by moving this weight around . If you were towing this with a dually, you could probably get away with moving the weight(ignoring the fact that you wouldn't need to). But with your vehicle, your margin of error is significantly less.

You seem to want to do this because of the weights you are seeing. If it is sagging, a wdh and airbags might help a little with that. The short wheelbase is also a big negative to stability.
__________________
2017 Jayco Jay Flight 28BHBE
2016 Ram 4x4 Crew Cab Laramie Diesel
dee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2017, 12:21 PM   #5
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bend
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by bedrck46 View Post
You state "I feel the vacuum feeling sucking me to the side when cars pass"


If you feel it when cars pass it must drive you nuts when a semi passes you


I did not notice if you are using sway bars or not. If not I suggest you use them.


Something that I do and you may want to try When a vehicle is passing me and I feel like I am being sucked over I will increase my speed about 2-3 MPH This will not interfere with the vehicle that is passing you but it will help to decrease the vacuum between the two vehicles


Also keeping as far to the right of your lane as safely possible will help.
The feeling of being sucked over isn't drastic or scary but I do feel it and sometimes slightly correct for it. I had the same thought as you that if a car/suv sucked me over that a semi would be worse but the few that have passed me wasn't any worse.

I'm using a EAZ-Lift WDH with no friction brake so I don't think there is any anti sway built in. I've thought about adding a friction brake to avoid sway in an emergency maneuver and to reduce that feeling when cars pass but haven't felt the need for it and one more thing to hassle with.

Thanks!
pitchlynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2017, 12:34 PM   #6
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bend
Posts: 15
Thank you for your replies. I pulled out your questions to make my response shorter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanAZ View Post
** Do you have a dinette in your TT and is there storage under those seats?
Yes. The dinette is just behind the axles. There is storage under half of each bench. I have light items under there plus a 29 lb generator which I put back there on purpose.
** My concern was moving mass to the rear of your TT when it seemed sway was already an issue for you.
Right, I don't have any issues with sway or handling beyond the sucking feeling which doesn't seem alarming to me.

** As long as other weight limits (hitch, receiver, TV) are not exceeded, going over %15 tongue weight is not moving into an 'unsafe' realm; generally the greater % of tongue weight the less tendency for sway. It sounds like most of your camping is boondocking and you need a dump station when you are in route home or to your next site, not long stretches with full waste tanks. Is that true? BTW, when boondocking, there are places where dumping gray water is permitted and I believe your gray tank is larger than your black tank.
I boondock 2-3 times a summer. If I can find a dump close by I make a point to stop but my last trip was in the middle of no where on a dry lake. Interesting that you can dump gray water some places. I'll have to research as that would help a lot to get rid of.

Good to know going over 15% isn't a stability issue but I would be over my jeep's max tongue weight and rear axle at that point for sure.

[/COLOR]
pitchlynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2017, 12:45 PM   #7
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Bend
Posts: 15
I've watched those videos! That's why I'm on here asking for advice and not just jumping into this. Thank you. I agree that with my TV any change is more drastic and could quickly become unsafe.

I'm using a WDH and the Jeep is air ride so there is no sagging or anything that concerns me other than the Jeep's loading numbers. My intent is just to add a little margin to the numbers while being careful not to end up unsafely balanced. But I hear you. It would be definitely be the safer choice to stay on the heavier side with the tongue weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dee View Post
My opinion is you are playing with Fire. You can find several TT accidents on YouTube and many of them have stuff mounted on the rear bumper. I tend to believe that you are compounding the issue of a marginal tow vehicle by moving this weight around . If you were towing this with a dually, you could probably get away with moving the weight(ignoring the fact that you wouldn't need to). But with your vehicle, your margin of error is significantly less.

You seem to want to do this because of the weights you are seeing. If it is sagging, a wdh and airbags might help a little with that. The short wheelbase is also a big negative to stability.
pitchlynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2017, 12:49 PM   #8
Moderator Emeritus
 
Rustic Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 7,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchlynn View Post
snip..... I've thought about adding a friction brake to avoid sway in an emergency maneuver and to reduce that feeling when cars pass but haven't felt the need for it and one more thing to hassle with. Thanks!
IMO it's worth the hassle...., it's a cheap one-time insurance investment. As you stated, it's a pro-active and reactive sway control device.

Bob
__________________

2016 GM 2500HD 6.0L/4.10
2018 Jay Flight 24RBS
2005 Jayco Eagle 278FBS (retired)
1999 Jayco Eagle 246FB (retired)
Reese HP Dual Cam (integrated sway control)
Rustic Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2017, 01:14 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
ALJO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Sparwood, BC
Posts: 1,329
Send a message via Skype™ to ALJO
Definitely sway control. And TW is always an spectacle never ending debate. In Europe and Australia they recommend 7 to 8% in North America 10 to 15%, just wonder who are the experts. A short wheel base doesn't help either and also the weight and stability of the TV vehicle. When you feel comfortable pulling that's what counts. Pulling a trailer always feels different than going solo. Know your equipment and drive it accordingly.
__________________
2014 Ram 1500 CrewCab 4x4 5.7 Hemi 3.92 Rear and Air Lift 1000
2005 Jayco Jay Feather LGT - 29Y GVWR-7000 lbs.
Pro Series 1200 lbs. WDH with Double Sway Bar.
Champion 3100/2800 watt Inverter/Generator-Onboard Solar Power

ALJO 'Forever Young @ Heart' provide on their travels Music Entertainment to Senior Care Homes
ALJO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2017, 02:47 PM   #10
Moderator Emeritus
 
Rustic Eagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 7,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALJO View Post
snip...... And TW is always an spectacle never ending debate. In Europe and Australia they recommend 7 to 8% in North America 10 to 15%, just wonder who are the experts.....snip
One would find the RV industry in Europe and Australia typically produce lighter/shorter trailers due to the vast amount of smaller TV's. IMO travel trailer tongue weights in those countries are in the ballpark of boat trailer tongue weights here. Safety and/or rating standards very...., plus trailer design configurations very in other countries (i.e.; axles placed further forward, etc.).

Just thinking out load here....

Bob
__________________

__________________

2016 GM 2500HD 6.0L/4.10
2018 Jay Flight 24RBS
2005 Jayco Eagle 278FBS (retired)
1999 Jayco Eagle 246FB (retired)
Reese HP Dual Cam (integrated sway control)
Rustic Eagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Virginia State Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2002-2016 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.