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Old 01-17-2018, 11:15 AM   #1
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CPAP / APAP 12v and 24v conversion ?????

Long-time camper but new to the CPAP. Still on a trial period and will have to purchase a machine soon as DW really appreciates the decreased noise in the bedroom. Will also need if for camping, frequently without shore power so I will need the battery capacity to run the CPAP for 1 to 3 nights before firing up the generator to recharge batteries.

I would prefer to not deal with the inefficiency of an inverter. Couple of models I am looking at one that will run on 12v DC, the other will run on 24v DC. The portable battery packs are ridiculously expensive with very limited run duration. An additional deep cycle battery or two strapped to the camper would be a much more cost effective solution.

I know the difference between hooking batteries up in parallel and series, but would it be possible to the same batteries for the normal 12v system on the camper and connected to a 24v outlet to use with the CPAP ? Could it be accomplished with a switch ? Would you connect the batteries 2X12v or 4X6v in series and then somehow reduce it to 12v for connection to TT with 24v running to an outlet in camper ?
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:36 AM   #2
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if you like the 24VDC system you can get a DC to DC BOOST converter (12>24VDC). Wire 2 in parallel and you will have 6 amps output. Any way you look at it the CPAP uses 2 amps without the humidifier and about 5 amps with the humidifier (I have one). Do the math.. 8 hours of sleep @ 5Amps (with humidifier... only way I can use mine)... 8Hrs * 5Amps = 40Ah's.

A standard size 24 battery is around 85Ah, but wait, you can only use 40Ah's of the 85 (battery 50% rule). So with 1 85Ah battery, you can use the CPAP for 1 night. And that is not running anything else. Add a second 85Ah battery and you will get 2 nights, without anything else (heat, lights,,....)

So, if you upgrade to a size 27 battery you will probably jump to 100Ah x 2 = 200Ah of which you can only use 100Ah. One size 27 still only gets you 1 night.

You want to go 3 days without charging, you will need to add a 3rd battery, but you may be running the generator all day on the 3rd day to get back to an 80% charge.

Another option is to get 2 separate size 27 batteries and wire your CPAP directly to them, but then you have 2 sets of batteries that would need to be charged separately on the 3rd day.

Why can't you charge them each day?

Or you could add 300 watts of SOLAR on the roof and that will care for your daily charging need, as my SOLAR does.

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Old 01-17-2018, 02:50 PM   #3
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DC/DC converter is the ticket there. For dry camping, I bought a DC cable from my medical device supplier that got it from the manufacturer. I went straight to the camper batteries, two 12V in parallel. One problem I had - when the heater would kick on, I got a low voltage alert on my CPAP (actually an ASV) and it shut off. I now have a dedicated 12V battery mounted up just for the CPAP and it works well.
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:03 PM   #4
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if you like the 24VDC system you can get a DC to DC BOOST converter (12>24VDC). Wire 2 in parallel and you will have 6 amps output. Any way you look at it the CPAP uses 2 amps without the humidifier and about 5 amps with the humidifier (I have one). Do the math.. 8 hours of sleep @ 5Amps (with humidifier... only way I can use mine)... 8Hrs * 5Amps = 40Ah's.

A standard size 24 battery is around 85Ah, but wait, you can only use 40Ah's of the 85 (battery 50% rule). So with 1 85Ah battery, you can use the CPAP for 1 night. And that is not running anything else. Add a second 85Ah battery and you will get 2 nights, without anything else (heat, lights,,....)

So, if you upgrade to a size 27 battery you will probably jump to 100Ah x 2 = 200Ah of which you can only use 100Ah. One size 27 still only gets you 1 night.

You want to go 3 days without charging, you will need to add a 3rd battery, but you may be running the generator all day on the 3rd day to get back to an 80% charge.

Another option is to get 2 separate size 27 batteries and wire your CPAP directly to them, but then you have 2 sets of batteries that would need to be charged separately on the 3rd day.

Why can't you charge them each day?

Or you could add 300 watts of SOLAR on the roof and that will care for your daily charging need, as my SOLAR does.

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Thanks so much for the info on the DC Boost Converter to get to 24v. I am sure the info is available on the web somewhere but it would have taken a long time to find. My math is not strong so the AH calculations are helpful as well. I wonder whether a 24v system would be less prone to low voltage alerts mentioned by Tom51.

I currently have 2 X 12v Deep Cycle (I think Group 27) batteries that were 110Ah when new but they are going into their 8th season which is twice as long as I have had my BHBE. The batteries have been sufficient to run water pump, LED lights and even limited furnace fan night use for 3 or 4 days without hooking up generator, but I question how they would hold up to a CPAP every night.

I am looking into new batteries this spring and a couple of extra T105's would be less expensive than one 12v plus a CPAP battery. If my math is correct, if I had 4 X T105's @ 220Ah each I would have 440Ah at 12v of which 220Ah would be usable according to 50% Rule. Not going without humidifier unless I absolutely have to, so presuming the CPAP I get draws the same 5amps for 40Ah per night, I should be able to go 3 or 4 nights without the necessity of starting the generator. We do a lot of 4 to 5 trips during summer so I can either run the generator the 4th or 5th day or we are home plugged into shore power.

I would prefer to avoid having to charge up batteries every day to ensure the longevity of a new battery pack. A lot of the State Parks we go to have fixed hours for generators. Back when I just had a single battery, I hated having to arrange my day around the generator hours ie. have to be back by 4:00 pm to fire up generator for 3 hours or waiting to shut off generator at 11:00am before going kayaking to make sure batteries were charged up.

You solar install would be ideal, but I little too complex for my limited abilities. Our current needs do not make it practical enough to justify the time and expense but if we had as much sunshine here as you do in Florida I would definitely place it higher on the priority list. I am currently looking into portable solar for kayak camping, not for the CPAP, but that is for another thread.

Thanks again for the great info !
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:18 PM   #5
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Check with the mfr of the CPAP machine to see if they already have a 12VDC plug option for their machine. I know some mfr do have them... as an option of course.

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Old 01-17-2018, 05:39 PM   #6
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My Cpap machine came with a 12 volt adapter which I connected directly to the batteries along with a 400 watt inverter which I rarely use. I have 200 watts of solar on the roof connected to two 220 amp batteries. I have gone many days and never got the batteries to halfway. The only time I got close was in 17 degree weather for two days and no sun, the furnace uses lots of battery. Left there and driving in the sun the batteries came back to full off of solar and the truck.
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:50 PM   #7
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The two models my CPAP vendor is recommending are the Phillips and ResMed. The Phillips will run on 12v with a proprietary cable you can buy and plug into any cigarette lighter type 12v outlet. The ResMed apparently runs on 24v or you can get a proprietary 24v battery for about $400. I do not think the ResMed battery would have as long of a lifespan as $400 worth of deep cycle batteries that are properly maintained.

If anybody is interested, here is a link to the Technical Services Battery Guide from ResMed which has some good information on inverters, converters (more efficient than inverters) as well as the current draws for the various ResMed machines and estimated battery size for 8 hour use including a 50 % safety margin endorsed by battery experts, including those here on JOF.

https://www.resmed.com/us/dam/docume...de_glo_eng.pdf

I would imagine the current draws would be comparable for other brands similarly equipped. It is interesting to note the different draws depending on different pressure and humidifier settings.
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Old 01-17-2018, 07:15 PM   #8
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Here is a 12volt > 24Volt voltage booster and it is 8 amps. No need to purchase (2) 3 amp models.

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Old 01-17-2018, 10:27 PM   #9
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https://www.resmed.com/epn/en/health...w-output-.html
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Old 01-18-2018, 05:16 PM   #10
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So, I just ran into this. Sounds like others have their fixes. I haven't fixed mine.

I am replying because I have the Resmed Airsense 10. I too have a generator to recharge the batteries. I bought the ridiculously expensive 24v to 12v adapter. I have 2 Costco 6V batteries in series for batteries.

My first trip out last month I was able to get through the night, but like others have said, late during the night when the heater would kick on (it was really cold) I would wake up because the CPAP would reboot. I can't be sure that it was the heater every time as I swear I caught it rebooting before the heater would come on. My batteries were full when we went to bed (as close as I could get them, but we did use lights for a while after turning off the generator).

My plan was to add another set of 6v batteries in parallel to get the capacity I need. 90% of the time we are plugged in at a campground so I surely don't want to do that if I am not going to fix my problem while boondocking.

Can others confirm I should be ok? I think by adding the second bank I should discharge at ~50% less right during the night?
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Old 01-18-2018, 11:53 PM   #11
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So, I just ran into this. Sounds like others have their fixes. I haven't fixed mine.

I am replying because I have the Resmed Airsense 10. I too have a generator to recharge the batteries. I bought the ridiculously expensive 24v to 12v adapter. I have 2 Costco 6V batteries in series for batteries.

My first trip out last month I was able to get through the night, but like others have said, late during the night when the heater would kick on (it was really cold) I would wake up because the CPAP would reboot. I can't be sure that it was the heater every time as I swear I caught it rebooting before the heater would come on. My batteries were full when we went to bed (as close as I could get them, but we did use lights for a while after turning off the generator).

My plan was to add another set of 6v batteries in parallel to get the capacity I need. 90% of the time we are plugged in at a campground so I surely don't want to do that if I am not going to fix my problem while boondocking.


Can others confirm I should be ok? I think by adding the second bank I should discharge at ~50% less right during the night?
I have the same PSAP and two 6V Costco batteries as you. My battery power comes from the 12v socket / Cell phone power in the bedroom.
My machine will reboot the same as yours but I believe I need to run a larger gauge wire to reduce the voltage drop and eliminate the reboot.

When I tent camp, I use a one 12v car battery with 12 gauge wire. No problems at all. I get about three nights sleep (no CPAP Humidifier) before I have to charge via the generator.
Yes... I paid $89.00 for that Resmed 24v to 12v adapter!
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Old 01-19-2018, 07:26 AM   #12
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So, My first trip out last month I was able to get through the night, but like others have said, late during the night when the heater would kick on (it was really cold) I would wake up because the CPAP would reboot. I can't be sure that it was the heater every time as I swear I caught it rebooting before the heater would come on. My batteries were full when we went to bed (as close as I could get them, but we did use lights for a while after turning off the generator).
Before you do anything else, get yourself a Digital Voltage Meter that you can leave on, and monitor your voltage. Your CPAP is probably rebooting due to a voltage drop, possibly when the heater fan kicks on. If that is the case then your batteries are not fully charged, or your heating system has drained your batteries to a dangerously LOW voltage, due to the cold or your batteries are just plain tired/old. When this happens, it usually means that your batteries are operating below 12VDC (50% battery rule) and each time this happens the life of your battery is shortened. Which means less time your CPAP machine will have the proper voltage to operate. Most heaters in the COLD weather may use all your batteries reserve power over night. Short bursts of a generator will not bring the batteries back to 100% or even 80%. One of the other members lets his generator run for 3 hours just to get the batteries back up to 80%.

Personally, if you must depend on the CPAP machine, I would recommend a couple of size 27 RV/Marine 100Ah batteries and wire your CPAP machine directly to them. This will keep your heater battery load on the TT batteries and your CPAP on its own battery(s). The problem with this is that these batteries need to be charged separately from the TT batteries as the will be different Ah ratings and age.

The easiest and best for most CPAP users would be to increase the TT's battery power. Adding additional batteries (same Mfr, Mfr Date, Model, Ah rating), which would probably mean going out and getting all new batteries so that they are all equal. But this method will be a pain for the normal RVer.

You also need to monitor the Ah's leaving your battery over night and how many your generator is putting back into them while charging. You can then get a good idea as to how long you need to run the generator.

For the time being you may want to turn your thermostat down a degree or 2 so that it will not kick on as much, but you need to be the judge of that as you are out in the elements with water in your pipes.

You did not mention the age of your batteries, and how you maintain them.. have they ever dropped below 10.5 VDC? Or lower? Are all the cable connections clean and tight? Water level always high? Water level ever expose the lead cells? Use an inverter for TV... LED bulbs, or regular?

A lot of things can have an effect on your batteries ability to produce enough power through the night.

Below are a few ideas for monitoring your batteries. The Volt/Ah meter would be the better of the 2. Start with the plug in model. You can also buy a 12VDC 1x2 outlet adapter, which turns 1 12Volt accessory plug into 2 outlets. The installation of the Ah meter is not difficult, and here is a link to what the other members have done with it.

Hope this helps!

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Old 01-19-2018, 10:25 AM   #13
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Before you do anything else, get yourself a Digital Voltage Meter that you can leave on, and monitor your voltage. Your CPAP is probably rebooting due to a voltage drop, possibly when the heater fan kicks on. If that is the case then your batteries are not fully charged, or your heating system has drained your batteries to a dangerously LOW voltage, due to the cold or your batteries are just plain tired/old. When this happens, it usually means that your batteries are operating below 12VDC (50% battery rule) and each time this happens the life of your battery is shortened. Which means less time your CPAP machine will have the proper voltage to operate. Most heaters in the COLD weather may use all your batteries reserve power over night. Short bursts of a generator will not bring the batteries back to 100% or even 80%. One of the other members lets his generator run for 3 hours just to get the batteries back up to 80%.

Personally, if you must depend on the CPAP machine, I would recommend a couple of size 27 RV/Marine 100Ah batteries and wire your CPAP machine directly to them. This will keep your heater battery load on the TT batteries and your CPAP on its own battery(s). The problem with this is that these batteries need to be charged separately from the TT batteries as the will be different Ah ratings and age.

The easiest and best for most CPAP users would be to increase the TT's battery power. Adding additional batteries (same Mfr, Mfr Date, Model, Ah rating), which would probably mean going out and getting all new batteries so that they are all equal. But this method will be a pain for the normal RVer.

You also need to monitor the Ah's leaving your battery over night and how many your generator is putting back into them while charging. You can then get a good idea as to how long you need to run the generator.

For the time being you may want to turn your thermostat down a degree or 2 so that it will not kick on as much, but you need to be the judge of that as you are out in the elements with water in your pipes.

You did not mention the age of your batteries, and how you maintain them.. have they ever dropped below 10.5 VDC? Or lower? Are all the cable connections clean and tight? Water level always high? Water level ever expose the lead cells? Use an inverter for TV... LED bulbs, or regular?

A lot of things can have an effect on your batteries ability to produce enough power through the night.

Below are a few ideas for monitoring your batteries. The Volt/Ah meter would be the better of the 2. Start with the plug in model. You can also buy a 12VDC 1x2 outlet adapter, which turns 1 12Volt accessory plug into 2 outlets. The installation of the Ah meter is not difficult, and here is a link to what the other members have done with it.

Hope this helps!

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Thanks - great reply. I just replaced my batteries before our last trip (see note below). I do not monitor them well enough to know what they are charging back up to or dropping down to over night. I was just going off the trailer battery meter (if you can call it that). I will definitely go grab one of those monitors you suggested. I would run my generator for a couple of hours. The worst night was when we watched TV with the generator running for a few hours. The battery meter showed full, but I doubt we were actually all the way full. I have the standard incandescent lights right now. I am waiting for a couple of styles of LED samples to arrive. I am going to replace every bulb inside and out with LED's. I just want to make sure they are the warm bulbs so I ordered a couple. They are taking forever to arrive. I don't mind adding the batteries. My problem is - 1. We don't boondock as much as I would like so I hate to spend the money and only use it a couple times a year, I could just sleep without the CPAP and not spend anything. 2. I want to make sure if I do add the batteries that I actually fix the problem with capacity.

While I am on the subject of LED's - not to take over the thread - but what bulbs do you use and where did you get them? I ordered a couple different styles below.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Note: I have from time to time (with the old batteries) had a small shock within the trailer. Mostly from opening the door on the trailer - grab the door handle. With the new batteries I know I have a problem as we are getting a much larger shock. I know it is only with the batteries and not the 30amp cable. I haven't had time since we came back to investigate. I have a battery cutoff switch so my batteries aren't discharging in storage.
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Old 01-20-2018, 12:00 PM   #14
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While I am on the subject of LED's - not to take over the thread - but what bulbs do you use and where did you get them? I ordered a couple different styles below. .
LED's!!!! Has to be one of the big topics that will get you a zillion opinions. It will finally come down to you making your own final decision.


Output Color chart
M4 LED Color Ranges and Base Cross Reference Scroll down.

The ones we chose are 1600 Lumens. PERFECT for our use. The 600 Lumens were not bright enough for us.

These are the LED's we use "NATURAL White"(DW hated Warm as it was to Yellowish) in the living area. We originally had 600 Lumens but they were not bright enough.
Exclusive M4 LED double aluminum plate light

These are the LED's I used above the kitchen sink lights and in the bathroom. I opted for the "COOL-White" non-natural as we wanted a bright light shining down on the food preparation area and in the bathroom where I shave and DW loves them. Really brighten up the bathroom. You can use a night light at night if you really deed one.
Exclusive M4 LED double aluminum plate light
They come with a number of different wire connectors for different types of sockets.

I have now replaced all the LED's in the TT and DW is really happy with the selection. Originally, I purchased some of the CHINA specials and watched the LED's die one by one and the base really got warm and the double sided tape fell off.

Are they more expensive, not really, as I have probably matched the cost by trying all the cheap ones over the years.

This is a GREAT company to do business with.

Good luck
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Old 01-20-2018, 03:11 PM   #15
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LED's!!!! Has to be one of the big topics that will get you a zillion opinions. It will finally come down to you making your own final decision.


Output Color chart
M4 LED Color Ranges and Base Cross Reference Scroll down.

The ones we chose are 1600 Lumens. PERFECT for our use. The 600 Lumens were not bright enough for us.

These are the LED's we use "NATURAL White"(DW hated Warm as it was to Yellowish) in the living area. We originally had 600 Lumens but they were not bright enough.
Exclusive M4 LED double aluminum plate light

These are the LED's I used above the kitchen sink lights and in the bathroom. I opted for the "COOL-White" non-natural as we wanted a bright light shining down on the food preparation area and in the bathroom where I shave and DW loves them. Really brighten up the bathroom. You can use a night light at night if you really deed one.
Exclusive M4 LED double aluminum plate light
They come with a number of different wire connectors for different types of sockets.

I have now replaced all the LED's in the TT and DW is really happy with the selection. Originally, I purchased some of the CHINA specials and watched the LED's die one by one and the base really got warm and the double sided tape fell off.

Are they more expensive, not really, as I have probably matched the cost by trying all the cheap ones over the years.

This is a GREAT company to do business with.

Good luck
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Did you go with the plates that you linked or the wedge base replacements - here - Cool Bright White Wedge Base LED Retrofit Light

I ask because if you did go with the plates I wanted to ask why and if they are better.

Thanks again.
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Old 01-20-2018, 04:03 PM   #16
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Did you go with the plates that you linked or the wedge base replacements - here - Cool Bright White Wedge Base LED Retrofit Light

I ask because if you did go with the plates I wanted to ask why and if they are better.

Thanks again.
I went with the plates because the round ones have to many LED's not angled down. Another issue is that the round ones do not have as many Lumens. The one you just linked is only 360 Lumens... that would be like going from a 100 watt light bulb to a 30 watt light bulb. The round design is for the old 1157 automotive design and people just started putting them in their RV's. The only place that I have the round LED's is in the fixture above the kitchen table, which has the 1157 base for automotive type bulbs.

You also need to scroll down on the product pace to see how many Lumen that particular bulb has.

If you do order any of these, make sure you look at the ending code:
CW=Cool White
NW=Natural White
SW=Soft White

They also have a dimmer switch for the lights, so you could go with the LARGEST Lumens and use the dimmer when necessary.

Hope that helps

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Old 02-01-2018, 11:19 AM   #17
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I have been using my CPAP (w/o humidifier) plugged into 110v outlet (inverted) without any issues. We have the standard coach battery that Jayco installed and using the Resmed Airsense 10 CPAP for a full night and found that the battery still reads 2/3 full by morning. Granted we only need to dry camp on occasion, but no major battery drain from one night use.
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Old 02-01-2018, 12:11 PM   #18
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I have been using my CPAP (w/o humidifier) plugged into 110v outlet (inverted) without any issues. We have the standard coach battery that Jayco installed and using the Resmed Airsense 10 CPAP for a full night and found that the battery still reads 2/3 full by morning. Granted we only need to dry camp on occasion, but no major battery drain from one night use.
The CPAP machine, without the humidifier uses less than 1 amp. With the humidifier operating, it jumps to 4 - 5 amps, depending on the setting.

1amp vs 5Amps, for all night (8 hours)

1Amp x 8 hours = 8 Amp Hours (not to bad)
5Amps x 8 hours = 40 Amp Hours (at the useable limit of a standard RV/Marine battery) [based on my CPAP machine]

Throw in an hour+ of central heat and you have pretty much drained the battery (battery voltage less than 12.0VDC).

Those battery level lights supplied with the RV leave a lot to be desired. Mine works as good as the water tank lights, so we do not even look at them any more. Remember what they were called in the automobiles back in the 60's. I would recommend getting a Digital Voltage Display like the one below. Your battery will be a lot happier. You will know when your battery hits 12.0 VDC and you can take appropriate shut-down action. It will also let you know by tracking the wake up voltage in the morning if your batteries have lost a lot of your rated Ah's, over time.... Another plus is that if you are constantly dropping below 12.0VDC by morning, you need to increase your battery power.

Don
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:10 PM   #19
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Location: Southern Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nunyadamn View Post
While I am on the subject of LED's - not to take over the thread - but what bulbs do you use and where did you get them? I ordered a couple different styles below.
We have these and very happy with the light. As close to the old 12V and only 1/10th the power. Available on Amazon as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GRV-T10-921...cAAOSwPh5ZHwJ6
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Old 02-01-2018, 04:31 PM   #20
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Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 256
Just started reading this thread, so I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents.
Have had an APAP machine for 4 years, and 80% of the camping we do is dry camping. I have two 6 volt batteries and an 85 watt solar panel. I've gone 4-5 days no problem, and that's with everything else running including the furnace occasionally. The solar panel is the secret. Without it, my batteries would be drained in a day.
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