Electrical Experts

[Vicr]

Originally Posted by djglover7

OK, I know very little. Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.


Question:


My cargo trailer/toy-hauler had AC power installed by the original owner. Looks just like a small panel you see in a garage or shop. The lead from the RV 30 amp has 3 conductors, black, white, and green. I was told by someone to construct two(2) grounding/neutral blocks inside the RV panel and then connect them. It was referred to a "floating" ground. All receptacles are grounded with neutral.


Am I going to die?

No your not going to die but there is no such thing as a floating ground and receptacles need a neutral and a ground.

[Thomson]

It's interesting to watch this thread. There is a guy named Mike Sokol who studied electricity sine he was little. He has no degree and is not a certified electrician. However, he wrote a book explaining among many other things how I almost got killed due to an RPBG. I touched the ladder on my fiver and got knocked to the ground. Fortunately I landed on my chest that restarted my heart; else i would have gone to the morgue as a heart attack, and the pedestal would have been waiting for its next victim. I'm going back to the thread "Who's drinking beer?"

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by Conservationman

As long as you are all here, can you tell me

Should the neutral be bonded to the ground in the camper, in the box or at the transformer?
Wally

It should NOT be bonded in the camper, the camper panel acts as a sub-panel. The neutral is bonded to ground in the main supply panel, where your rig is plugged into.

Here's a picture of my panel in my rig. The neutrals and grounds are on a separate buss.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by djglover7

The lead from the RV 30 amp has 3 conductors, black, white, and green. I was told by someone to construct two(2) grounding/neutral blocks inside the RV panel and then connect them. It was referred to a "floating" ground. All receptacles are grounded with neutral.

Am I going to die?

Well, that's close. It should have two separate blocks (bus bars). One for the grounds, that's mounted to the case, grounding the case too. The second one should be for the neutrals, and when that block (bus bar) is mounted to the case, it should be insulated off of the case, so it's not connecting with the grounds (this might be where his "floating" came from). This way all three conductors are isolated from each other.

[djglover7]

The neutral and grounding buses are both mounted inside the box. The components are all from the same manufacturer and supposedly designed for that application. Pic coming real quick.


And, the AC system and panel do NOT touch or conduct to the trailer.

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by Conservationman

As long as you are all here, can you tell me

Should the neutral be bonded to the ground in the camper, in the box or at the transformer?
Wally

No, the neutral should NOT be bonded with the camper. The Grounds should. The neutral needs to be Isolated from the camper. That is why it is called a floating neutral! The neutral does not get bonded to the grounds until it get ALL THE WAY BACK. to the park service entrance main disconnect. Not in your panel, not at the ped.

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by djglover7

The neutral and grounding buses are both mounted inside the box. The components are all from the same manufacturer and supposedly designed for that application. Pic coming real quick.


And, the AC system and panel do NOT touch or conduct to the trailer.

The AC system GROUND is bonded to the RV frame. Neutral does not.

[Cavie]

[QUOTE=wags999;871583]

Originally Posted by Cavie

You almost got it right. Actually what we ran was called 10/3 plain. Black, white and a green, White was a hot leg


Actually White is always a neutral...in this case black would be hot and green would be ground.

What is not always neutral when using Romex wire. you use black and white for 240 volts and mark the with with black tape.

I ran 10/3 plane to 240 dryers for over 20 years before the code changed to 4 wire dryer and range plugs,

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by Vicr

This is an interesting point, it all starts with the code phrase “service” is the converter/ panel the service for an RV or the pedestal that we plug into. I’ll dig out my code book and get back to you on this. I have several electrical inspections coming soon on a high rise project I’m doing in Seattle and I’ll ask a few of the inspectors how they interpret the code.

Neutrals and grounds are bonded at the "service entrance" only. After that everything else must be 4 wire with the neutrals and grounds separate. Neutrals do not get bonded to any metal pipe or panel box after the "Service Entrance Disconnect". RV's and PEDESTALS are not bonded. Neutral is floating.

Guess I should have added 2 year Electric Building Inspector to my signature.

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by djglover7

OK, I know very little. Thank you for letting me get that off my chest.


Question:


My cargo trailer/toy-hauler had AC power installed by the original owner. Looks just like a small panel you see in a garage or shop. The lead from the RV 30 amp has 3 conductors, black, white, and green. I was told by someone to construct two(2) grounding/neutral blocks inside the RV panel and then connect them. It was referred to a "floating" ground. All receptacles are grounded with neutral.


Am I going to die?

The panel the PO installed must have a ground buss bonded to the frame of the trailer and the metal Box. The Neutral must be floating and NOT connected to the frame or the metal of the breaker box.

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by RetiredOne

It should NOT be bonded in the camper, the camper panel acts as a sub-panel. The neutral is bonded to ground in the main supply panel, where your rig is plugged into.

Here's a picture of my panel in my rig. The neutrals and grounds are on a separate buss.

Main supply panel, in the case of a camp ground, is not where the RV is plugged in. (ped). Main supply panel is the campgrounds main service where all the peds are hooked up. PEDs are neutral and grounds separate as is all the RV's.

[djglover7]

Here is a pic of the current panel (yes I know it is a residential panel).

Neutral bar and grounding bar DO NOT connect.
Neutral does NOT connect to box.
Ground DOES connect to box.

Neutral or ground DO NOT go to the RV.


What is the rational/physics that require the ground to go to the RV chassis if the chassis is NOT grounded? Would that require a grounding rod outside the trailer?


Am I going to die?

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by djglover7

Here is a pic of the current panel (yes I know it is a residential panel).

Neutral bar and grounding bar DO NOT connect.
Neutral does NOT connect to box.
Ground DOES connect to box.

Neutral or ground DO NOT go to the RV.


What is the rational/physics that require the ground to go to the RV chassis if the chassis is NOT grounded? Would that require a grounding rod outside the trailer?


Am I going to die?


Attachment 60822

Ground goes to the frame to keep from getting a "hot skin" condition. In case there is a problem it prevents YOU from becoming a Ground rod.

No driven ground rod. The chassis is bonded to a ground rod at the "Main Service Disconnect" thru the shore power cord, the ped and the wireing all the way back to the main service..

[Click_here]

With the collective knowledge of all the folks on this particular thread, maybe someone can help.

We bought our Greyhawk new in Dec of 2017. Almost year to the day, our house battery (this model only has one) was unable to raise my auto leveling jacks. Checked the light on the panel and it showed E. Spoke to the dealer who said it was a maintenance issue. "Batteries go bad," he told me. He also said I shouldn't keep it plugged in at our house, where we park in the drive and have a 30amp outlet installed (by licensed electricians!), that it would ruin our battery.

Bought a new one and now, a little over a year later, had the same situation. We had unplugged and parked in the street across our driveway so I could level to drain our fresh water. When I went to retract, same problem. Battery status shows 1/3 and would not raise the jacks. Started the engine and of course, worked fine.

I have one of the volt meters you plug into the 12volt outlet on the dash and when the engine is running, I am guessing I am looking at the engine battery not the house battery, right? Shows 13.4 +/-

So what is the deal, should we *not* keep it plugged in? Did we just get a 2nd crappy battery? We never boondock, obviously, would like to one day, but I am not sure we could last without running the generator daily.

Thoughts, advice?
Thanks in advance.

[djglover7]

How does this work when my 12v system uses the same RV chassis (and at times the TV)?

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by djglover7

Here is a pic of the current panel (yes I know it is a residential panel).

That looks like a sub-panel, that might explain why the grounds and neutrals are separate.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by Cavie

Main supply panel, in the case of a camp ground, is not where the RV is plugged in. (ped). Main supply panel is the campgrounds main service where all the peds are hooked up. PEDs are neutral and grounds separate as is all the RV's.

I did say "main". The PED is a intermediate point.

[RetiredOne]

Originally Posted by Click_here

Bought a new one and now, a little over a year later, had the same situation. We had unplugged and parked in the street across our driveway so I could level to drain our fresh water. When I went to retract, same problem. Battery status shows 1/3 and would not raise the jacks. Started the engine and of course, worked fine.

I have one of the volt meters you plug into the 12volt outlet on the dash and when the engine is running, I am guessing I am looking at the engine battery not the house battery, right? Shows 13.4 +/-

So what is the deal, should we *not* keep it plugged in? Did we just get a 2nd crappy battery? We never boondock, obviously, would like to one day, but I am not sure we could last without running the generator daily.

First, you have something draining the battery. Many rigs (with auto levelers) have parasitic drains that will kill the battery if it sits.

Could be a bunch of different issues. First, the voltmeter you plugged into your dash reads the chassis battery. Should be 14+ when the engine is running, and will float between 13.4 and lower into the 12's, the longer the rig sits.

Best way to start troubleshooting is to go buy a digital voltmeter at Home Depot, Lowes, etc., and start tanking voltage readings on your house battery. When the engine is running, you should see the same voltage on the house battery as your dash voltmeter, since both charge when the engine runs.

Then check the battery voltage with nothing running and has been sitting for a while, it should be 12.6 or higher, if it's a good battery. Lower than that (like 12.2 or lower, it's hurt). When plugged into shore power, the voltage should jump into the 13's on the house battery, if your converter is charging it.

Once you start taking and checking these voltages, you can go onto the next chapter.

[Cavie]

Originally Posted by djglover7

How does this work when my 12v system uses the same RV chassis (and at times the TV)?

12 volt systems uses the chassis as a current caring conductor. AC systems have a neutral (return line ). It is insulated. AC ground is NOT a current caring conductor.. It has O volts on it unless there is a short at witch point it is used to immediately trip the circuit breaker and current flow instantly stops.

[djglover7]

Originally Posted by Cavie

12 volt systems uses the chassis as a current caring conductor. AC systems have a neutral (return line ). It is insulated. AC ground is NOT a current caring conductor.. It has O volts on it unless there is a short at witch point it is used to immediately trip the circuit breaker and current flow instantly stops.

So, my understanding of GFCI protected circuits is exactly that, an imbalance between hot and neutral (part going to ground) (??).


How would this work on my air conditioning (A/C) and/or water heater AC circuit? (they are not on a GFCI).



Could an AC short circuit harm my other 12v DC systems and TV?