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Old 06-17-2015, 04:32 AM   #11
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It's just the configuration the manufacture of the generator decides to use.He is a list,it's for compatibility with a transfer,but still a useful list.

www.generlink.com/CompatibleGenerator.pdf
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Old 06-17-2015, 04:36 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by VicS1950 View Post
I just can't resist...

If this Neutral - Ground cheater plug is such a safe and great solution, and it is approved by all jurisdictions, why isn't every RV that "needs" one supplied with it from the factory? It just seems odd to me given the money people are shelling out for a new RV that such a simple inexpensive solution wouldn't be standard equipment. Are these cheater plugs commercially available?

vic
Neither my generator or trailer need the plug,It's the progressive industry's hard wired surge protector that needs it.Progressive industry's recommended the plug.
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Old 06-17-2015, 05:44 AM   #13
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For one, it is not universally needed. Most people who rv, do not even carry or need a generator.
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Old 06-17-2015, 07:14 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicS1950 View Post
I just can't resist...

If this Neutral - Ground cheater plug is such a safe and great solution, and it is approved by all jurisdictions, why isn't every RV that "needs" one supplied with it from the factory? It just seems odd to me given the money people are shelling out for a new RV that such a simple inexpensive solution wouldn't be standard equipment. Are these cheater plugs commercially available?
vic
It is not one of the safest things one can do.

However, in your MAIN residential panel, ground and neutral are bonded together. Only where power enters the house since the utility company only supplies 120--0--120 power.

Your main breaker panel is locally grounded. It then divvies things up to provide 120V, 240V and neutral (normal return path) and ground (abnormal return path).

Since a generator is an independent power supply, many of the rules of residential power become irrelevant. Although, not providing a safe path to ground should be avoided, if possible.
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:35 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WrenZ71 View Post
Neither my generator or trailer need the plug,It's the progressive industry's hard wired surge protector that needs it.Progressive industry's recommended the plug.
Thanks.

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Originally Posted by mike837go View Post
It is not one of the safest things one can do.

However, in your MAIN residential panel, ground and neutral are bonded together. Only where power enters the house since the utility company only supplies 120--0--120 power.

Your main breaker panel is locally grounded. It then divvies things up to provide 120V, 240V and neutral (normal return path) and ground (abnormal return path).

...
Not quite. It has nothing to do with 120 - 0 - 120 power. The neutral is bonded in the main distribution panel to establish a 0 volts reference to ground for safety.

The neutral is similarly bonded in 208/120 and 480/277 3 phase systems and even 4160/2300 distribution.

I see no real advantage to bonding at the generator. Unless there is a proper grounding method my preference with a stand alone 120 volt generator is to keep the ground and neutral separate with a GFI device used very close to the source (generator receptacle). I realize that some units come with a neutral bonded to the frame.

FWIW. vic
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Old 06-17-2015, 08:53 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by VicS1950 View Post
Not quite. It has nothing to do with 120 - 0 - 120 power. The neutral is bonded in the main distribution panel to establish a 0 volts reference to ground for safety.

I'd rephrase that as "The neutral is bonded in the main distribution panel to establish a 0 volts reference and establish a separate ground for safety"

The neutral is similarly bonded in 208/120 and 480/277 3 phase systems and even 4160/2300 distribution.
No disagreement. I just didn't want to confuse things with commercial power systems.
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Old 06-17-2015, 09:06 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by WrenZ71 View Post
Neither my generator or trailer need the plug,It's the progressive industry's hard wired surge protector that needs it.Progressive industry's recommended the plug.
Question.

Did they comment whether the surge protector was still effective when using the cheater plug? Some surge protection designs use the ground as part of the spike suppression.

The cheater may not be really doing anything for you other than satisfying/fooling the power ground monitor feature.

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Old 06-17-2015, 01:19 PM   #18
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Question.

Did they comment whether the surge protector was still effective when using the cheater plug? Some surge protection designs use the ground as part of the spike suppression.

The cheater may not be really doing anything for you other than satisfying/fooling the power ground monitor feature.

vic
Honestly I didn't ask,I know the surge feature still works.If my gens are in Eco and I fire up the colman Mach 15 a/c it will cut power.If the other features work with the plug doesn't matter,my only other option is to not run the plug and flip the switch on the ems to off which makes it only a surge protector anyway.

I don't see how this can be any safer or Un safer then running a non inverter style gen.Most have the neutral bound to ground internally anyway.

Also another thing I read is most transfer switches bond neutral to ground on the generator side.
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Old 06-17-2015, 01:26 PM   #19
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Also read though this

https://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_Hur..._generator.pdf
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Old 06-17-2015, 02:06 PM   #20
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Thanks for the reference.

Safe Work Practices

• Never attach a portable generator directly
to the electrical system of a structure
(home, office or trailer) unless the generator
has a properly installed open-transition
transfer switch
.

(Just not plugging your RV into the pedestal works too, but remember to do that.)

Grounding Requirements for Portable
and Vehicle-mounted Generators


Under the following conditions, OSHA
directs (29 CFR 1926.404(f)(3)(i)) that the
frame of a portable generator need not be
grounded (connected to earth) and that the
frame may serve as the ground (in place of
the earth):

• The generator supplies only equipment
mounted on the generator and/or cord and
plug-connected equipment
through
receptacles mounted on the generator,
§ 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(A), and

• The noncurrent-carrying metal parts of
equipment (such as the fuel tank, the internal
combustion engine, and the generator’s
housing) are bonded to the generator
frame, and the equipment grounding conductor
terminals (of the power receptacles
that are a part of [mounted on] the generator)
are bonded to the generator frame,
§ 1926.404(f)(3)(i)(B).

Thus, rather than connect to a grounding
electrode system, such as a driven ground
rod, the generator’s frame replaces the
grounding electrode.

If these conditions do not exist, then a
grounding electrode, such as a ground rod,
is required.

If the portable generator is providing electric
power to a structure by connection via a
transfer switch to a structure (home, office,
shop, trailer, or similar) it must be connected
to a grounding electrode system, such as a
driven ground rod. The transfer switch must
be approved for the use and installed in
accordance with the manufacturer’s installation
instructions by a qualified electrician.

*************************

It reads to me that the first quoted section knocks RV's out for using a cheater plug, not to mention some of the further grounding requirements.

They do mention to use GFI's in the document too.

Be careful with portable generators. The electricity they supply can kill people just as dead as the voltage from a power grid.

vic
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