G-N bonding plug?

[mike837go]

Originally Posted by VicS1950

Thanks for the reference.

Safe Work Practices...snip...

Be careful with portable generators. The electricity they supply can kill people just as dead as the voltage from a power grid.

vic

Amen! Brother Vic, amen.

Let's all be safe out there

[Filthy-Beast]

Did you see this part?

Bonding and grounding are separate requirements for generators and other electrical distribution systems. Grounding means the connection, or the establishment of a connection, of an electric circuit or equipment to reference ground, which includes the generator’s frame. Bonding is the intentional connection between the grounded circuit conductor (neutral) and the grounding means for the generator, which includes the generator’s frame. Thus, effective bonding of the neutral conductor to the generator’s frame is also a concern for the safe use of the equipment. As with grounding terminal connections, proper bonding of the neutral terminal of a power receptacle may be confirmed via testing by a competent electrician with the correct equipment, and the ohmic resistance should measure near zero and must not be intermittent, which indicates a loose connection

[mike837go]

Originally Posted by Filthy-Beast

Did you see this part?

Bonding and grounding are separate requirements for generators and other electrical distribution systems. Grounding means the connection, or the establishment of a connection, of an electric circuit or equipment to reference ground, which includes the generator’s frame. Bonding is the intentional connection between the grounded circuit conductor (neutral) and the grounding means for the generator, which includes the generator’s frame. Thus, effective bonding of the neutral conductor to the generator’s frame is also a concern for the safe use of the equipment. As with grounding terminal connections, proper bonding of the neutral terminal of a power receptacle may be confirmed via testing by a competent electrician with the correct equipment, and the ohmic resistance should measure near zero and must not be intermittent, which indicates a loose connection

Yes, and all it does is explain what bonding does and that it should be checked to see that it is set up properly.

The bulk of the text is about electrical safety around generators.

BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF ALL THIS is the electricity must have an alternate path to ground OTHER THAN PEOPLE when a tool or appliance malfunctions!

[Nighthawk 96]

I have a wired EMS from PI. I have spoken with one of their telephone reps, who was very helpful. He suggested using the grounding plug in a portable generator.

Reason he gave was that one might forget to switch the unit back into the protect mode when not using the generator(s) My model has an external monitor with a switch to turn it off - actually to by pass it.

I am not worried about surge with inverter generators in use. Well maybe lighting could strike, but we would probably be fried anyway if the strike were that close!

[VicS1950]

Originally Posted by Filthy-Beast

Did you see this part?

Bonding and grounding are separate requirements for generators and other electrical distribution systems. Grounding means the connection, or the establishment of a connection, of an electric circuit or equipment to reference ground, which includes the generator’s frame. Bonding is the intentional connection between the grounded circuit conductor (neutral) and the grounding means for the generator, which includes the generator’s frame. Thus, effective bonding of the neutral conductor to the generator’s frame is also a concern for the safe use of the equipment. As with grounding terminal connections, proper bonding of the neutral terminal of a power receptacle may be confirmed via testing by a competent electrician with the correct equipment, and the ohmic resistance should measure near zero and must not be intermittent, which indicates a loose connection

Yes.

I believe that I understand the definitions of grounding and bonding. I have applied them and worked with them for decades.

Please provide more detail as to how you feel this applies to the cheater plug under discussion improving the safety of a system.

I believe that I've shown that I'm open to discussion.

vic

[mike837go]

Hi All,


First an apology and correction; It is required that a genset have its ground and neutral bonded when used as an independent power system.


I am sorry for saying that it is unsafe to do so.


Hello. My name is Michael and I am
a loud-mouthed shnook who should
check his facts first.


When connecting a genset to a building for backup power, one must NOT bond the ground and neutral in the genset.


I sat down and reviewed the materials on what the ground lead is expected to do.


In any power system, there must be exactly ONE point of bonding between neutral and ground. It has to exist for the ground to be able to do its job as the abnormal return path.


Without a bonding point, the ground wire is floating and useless.


Having multiple points of bonding is bad because a fault in the neutral wire between the bonding points will cause the ground wire to carry normal return power.

[VicS1950]

Originally Posted by mike837go

...


Hello. My name is Michael and I am
a loud-mouthed shnook who should
check his facts first.

Insert my name above sometimes too.

Originally Posted by mike837go

When connecting a genset to a building for backup power, one must NOT bond the ground and neutral in the genset.


I sat down and reviewed the materials on what the ground lead is expected to do.


In any power system, there must be exactly ONE point of bonding between neutral and ground. It has to exist for the ground to be able to do its job as the abnormal return path.


Without a bonding point, the ground wire is floating and useless.


Having multiple points of bonding is bad because a fault in the neutral wire between the bonding points will cause the ground wire to carry normal return power.

I agree that it depends upon how the generator is being used especially when feeding an existing system, and not cord connected equipment.

Bonding the neutral current carrying conductor to the electrically high and dry floating generator frame can have some benefit, but of itself it is not the answer to really safe operation.

Consider a scenario where a cord connected device (drill motor, power saw, etc.) has line side leakage to the metal frame outside parts. When a properly grounded supply is used that leakage is taken to ground by the the green wire. If the supply is an ungrounded generator frame with no neutral bond then that leakage will travel back on the green wire to the floating generator frame and elevate the frame to some voltage above ground potential. I say some voltage above ground potential because without a ground rod (the frame and generated voltage is floating) there is no set ground potential.

With the generator frame bonded to the neutral current carrying conductor the drill frame leakage as described above is combined with the neutral conductor and carried back to generator coils. The floating generator frame may still be elevated to some potential above ground.

Neither of the above situations is ideal.

To me the safe answer is to make certain that a tested GFI is always used right at the generator plug. As I have stated earlier, the GFI doesn't need a ground to do it's job. If more than 5 mA of current goes anywhere but back to the generator coils the GFI will trip.

That said, if one is going to bond the generator frame and neutral I feel it should be done by properly hard wiring the bond at the generator, not by using some cheater plug.

I still question whether a bonded neutral to an ungrounded generator frame brings devices such as the Progressive Industry unit to full protection operation.

FWIW. vic

[mike837go]

Originally Posted by VicS1950

Insert my name above sometimes too.

... snip ...
To me the safe answer is to make certain that a tested GFI is always used right at the generator plug. As I have stated earlier, the GFI doesn't need a ground to do it's job. If more than 5 mA of current goes anywhere but back to the generator coils the GFI will trip.

That said, if one is going to bond the generator frame and neutral I feel it should be done by properly hard wiring the bond at the generator, not by using some cheater plug.

I still question whether a bonded neutral to an ungrounded generator frame brings devices such as the Progressive Industry unit to full protection operation.

FWIW. vic

Never thought of using a GFCI with a genset. Good Idea!

[That's gonna mean some really wild mods to the ol' EMXFQS 5500]

Generally, because a portable generator has a metal frame that is in contact with the physical ground, it is considered grounded. But nothing beats driving a 3 foot length of copper rod into the ground and connecting it properly to the generator's frame.

Again, a GFCI makes that even that kind of protection redundant.

[VicS1950]

Originally Posted by mike837go

...

Generally, because a portable generator has a metal frame that is in contact with the physical ground, it is considered grounded. ...

Many generators sit on rubber feet to minimize noise and vibration, or on plastic wheels for portability.

As you mention, even when the painted metal frame is in direct contact with bare ground it doesn't really "ground" the frame properly.

vic

[Rustic Eagle]

Originally Posted by VicS1950

snip...... Are these cheater plugs commercially available? vic

A little late to the thread...., but to your question, Yes.

I ran across the following "cheater" product sold by Progressive Industries just a couple days ago....., thought you might find it interesting. Mike Sokol of the "No-Shock-Zone" (referenced earlier in this thread) states he developed the new Generator Plug product (refer to video in link).

Generator Plug: Progressive Industries RV Surge and Electrical Protection industry lea

Bob

[WrenZ71]

Been using mine since this thread with zero problems.I only use it with the generators and not when plugged into shore power.

I spoke to my cousin in law about it a few months back.He is a certified electrician,Walked out to his trailer,same gens,same EMI and same plug.

He laughed when I said you guys said it was unsafe.Then went onto explain a bunch of stuff I didnt really understand.Now I kinda know how people feel when I explain to the what's wrong with there cars or how there car works.

[Rustic Eagle]

Originally Posted by WrenZ71

Been using mine since this thread with zero problems......snip

Made my "cheater" a couple years ago for my Yamaha/PI-EMS setup....., still works fine.

Bob

[VicS1950]

Originally Posted by WrenZ71

...

He laughed when I said you guys said it was unsafe.T...

The cheater plug when used in the intended situation/system is not of itself unsafe. It is not recommended to bond the neutral to ground anywhere but at the panel. What could be unsafe is when a cheater plug is applied improperly in the wrong system.

It is a bastardized common design plug. Has anybody thought to label it
"Special. Only Use with Generator System" or some other warning?

Don't worry at all. Everything is fine until it isn't.

vic

[mike837go]

To re-state:


The safest AC electrical system will have EXACTLY one (1) point of bonding between neutral and ground.


When the RV is plugged into a house or at the campground, the facility's panel handles the bonding.


When running an RV from genset, you have to provide the point of bonding AND a good solid ground.


But who is going to carry three 6' sections of grounding rod, pound them into the ground and wire it all up?

[SkyBound]

Thread resurrection!

I am facing this issue now. After a phone chat with Champion Power Equipment, it seems that California is to blame! All US model Champion Generators come from California, and the open neutral is to meet their own electrical code.

All units sold in Canada come ground-neutral bonded, but have the dumb twist-lock 30A plug which requires an adapter.

WHY CAN'T THERE JUST BE BOTH? NO ADAPTERS OR PLUGS NEEDED!!!

So I guess I have to make one of these bonding plugs. I get that the bottom pin is the ground, but how do you know which of the two top plugs is the neutral? Is it possible to screw it up and connect the hot to ground?

[ROC-REQS]

Originally Posted by SkyBound

...So I guess I have to make one of these bonding plugs. I get that the bottom pin is the ground, but how do you know which of the two top plugs is the neutral? Is it possible to screw it up and connect the hot to ground?

SkyBound,

Look closely at RoyBraddy's pictures in post # 6. Align the plug same as in the picture and wire the plug same as in the pictures.

Typically, the silver screw is the neutral and the green is the ground, with the gold being the hot. You want to wire up green to silver (ground to neutral).

Hope this helps.

[Vicr]

The generator is a separately derived source and the NEC states this is the location of bonding the neutral to ground, hence those using their home fabricated "plugs".