lithium-ion battery love affair by some???

[Bassdogs]

Will someone explain the apparent love affair some have with Lith-Ion batteries for RV uses? Why are they willing to shell out 3 or 4 times the $$$ for a power source in their RV? I understand this type battery has been used in PC's, mobile devices, etc for years but even in those applications there were problems in the early stages. More recently were the well publicized fires on jumbo jets and just last year with the hoverboards. I've read they are good at delivering a lot of power for relative short bursts but require special charging procedures and should not be connected to systems that are back fed by a conventional 12v source. But the main negative I see is the cost. The 2nd is the apparent risk of overheating and having these things under a bench or bed in my TT. There are some who jump on new stuff ahead of the general public and people like me who wait for the $$$ and problems to get sorted out of things like HDTV that went from thousands of $$ to a couple hundred after a few years.

Am I missing something?? Why do I feel completely comfortable with my twin 6v cart batteries? Without getting technical, I don't want to know how to build the clock, what time is it in regard to the lith-ion battery craze?

[charles_cincy]

1) Less weight for the same power
2) longer life
3) Quicker charging

Check out this page
Lithium Ion Batteries for RV House Systems / LiFePO4 | Technomadia

I imagine lithium will eventually be mainstream. Telsa's already doing it for houses.

[Cdash]

I'm ready for better battery technology, but I'll be waiting for several glowing reviews of new battery technology from people like those on here, and for the prices to become reasonable, which will likely be a long while. I can't see paying a high $$ premium for a little more power. I think new technology holds promise, but we aren't there yet. There are always the types who want the latest and greatest, even though they end up being beta testers. If we didn't have people like them, we'd never get advance input. I'll let others do the testing for me.

Maybe it will be ready after my first set of 6 volts on the soon to be delivered trailer die out!

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by Cdash

I'm ready for better battery technology, but I'll be waiting for several glowing reviews of new battery technology from people like those on here, and for the prices to become reasonable, which will likely be a long while. I can't see paying a high $$ premium for a little more power. I think new technology holds promise, but we aren't there yet. There are always the types who want the latest and greatest, even though they end up being beta testers. If we didn't have people like them, we'd never get advance input. I'll let others do the testing for me.

Maybe it will be ready after my first set of 6 volts on the soon to be delivered trailer die out!

Agree in spades. I remember when a 30" HD tv with something like 780p was $5000. Just put a new LG43' led 1080i in my White Hawk for $325. The people paying the big bucks for new stuff end up buying new stuff a couple years later when their original item is totally old news just like plasma TV's. Was just wondering if the regular folks were missing something buying conventional 6v to replace their oem 12v.

[Camper_bob]

I'm with you on this one Bassdogs. I'm always one to wait it out. For cars, TVs, whatever. I'm not going to be the early adopter shelling out gobs of cash for untested/unproven technology. So I'll continue to use the "old-school", battle-tested 12V or perhaps even 6V batteries, and anxiously read about the development of LiIon (and possibly other) technology.

That being said, I truly do appreciate those who are early adopters. They're paving the way for the rest of us, working out kinks, and refining as they go. Heck, if I had the money, I might be right there with them...

[hoppers4]

Originally Posted by charles_cincy

1) Less weight for the same power
2) longer life
3) Quicker charging

Check out this page
Lithium Ion Batteries for RV House Systems / LiFePO4 | Technomadia

I imagine lithium will eventually be mainstream. Telsa's already doing it for houses.

Very interesting reading Charles. Hope to have better RV batteries some time in the next 5 to 10 years.

[Subaru297]

Increased capacity as well as you can discharge them down to 20% capacity rather than the usual 50% for lead acid. So you get to use more of the available power.

[Mustang65]

Originally Posted by Camper_bob

So I'll continue to use the "old-school", battle-tested 12V or perhaps even 6V batteries, and anxiously read about the development of LiIon (and possibly other) technology....

Come on Camper Bob.... we have to move on sometime or we would all be using the computers with That good old 10Mhz 8088 processor without the math-coprocessi9ng chip because of the expense. Running DOS, OK you may think this is crazy but my home control PC (still running XP, uses DOS bats that I wrote, HAL doesn't run that great on the old Win7 box)...

.... But in this case I will sit back and enjoy the (2) 6 volt batteries charged by the sun that get the job done. Maybe when they work out all the bugs with the new batteries, the battery management system and they drop about $1500, I may think about it.

By the way the clock on my old NEC 8088 10Mhz mother board still works flawlessly... see below. This is the mother board of my 2nd computer that I purchased in 1984.

Don

[gocarp]

Just sit back and thank the early adopters that allow businesses to continue to operate and drive down the cost of the products.

[Flapper]

I wouldn't hold my breath for costs to come down much....
Lithium Iron batteries were invented in 2005. A123 Systems, the original mfg. in Michigan tried hard to break into the electric car market, but went into bankruptcy in 2012. The remains were picked up by a Chinese company, where almost all of the manufacturing of these types of batteries is now located. There has been a rise in many Chinese versions, but is unclear whether they are rebrands of the original, complete rip-offs of them, or both. It's your own guess as to how well made they may or may not be.
Suffice it to say, if the Chinese haven't been able to drop prices dramatically by now, it probably will not happen anytime soon....
Lithium Iron (if manufactured like A123 did) are very safe. But they don't quite have the same power output of some of the other types of Lithium batteries (the ones that catch fire!)
Their expected life span is much longer than lead acid. But they do have to be babied a lot more to reach that. ie - if not being used for more than a couple of weeks, they need to be discharged to a specific storage level. They can't be kept out in the cold for prolonged periods. Even once accidentally discharging them to zero can ruin them. The charging systems have to be a lot "smarter" to maintain them correctly. Etc.
Much higher capacity, much less weight, potentially longer life. But at the trade off of cost and greater babysitting.

[Seann45]

I don't need to be the first boy on the group with these but I am watching and learning for when I need to replace my 6-6's in about 8 years.

[Bassdogs]

Just 2 expensive and special handling for me. My 6V's work fine on the TT and the houseboat. Getting 5 or 6 years out of a set. The set on the houseboat came off of my last tt and are on year 6 and still ticking.

Until they get more main stream and cheaper, I'm good with the current types. Will probably buy another set of 6's when the old ones die.

[Subaru297]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

Just 2 expensive and special handling for me. My 6V's work fine on the TT and the houseboat. Getting 5 or 6 years out of a set. The set on the houseboat came off of my last tt and are on year 6 and still ticking.

Until they get more main stream and cheaper, I'm good with the current types. Will probably buy another set of 6's when the old ones die.

I don't get the "special handling" excuse or they are too complicated to charge. They are easier to take care of than a lead acid battery.

To properly care for a lead acid battery:
Bulk stage
Absorption stage
Finishing stage
Float stage
Add in temperature compensation
Occasional equalization charge
Don't discharge less than 50%
Each manufacturer has specific charge voltages to get the most out of the battery.
Oh, and don't forget to top up the electrolyte
They are hard to overcharge but you can boil away the electrolyte.
Watch out for the self discharge rate while in storage.
Keep them ventilated... not in your trailer.

Lithium battery:
If it comes with a good BMS (battery management system) you can't over charge or discharge the battery.
Charge at specified voltage and ramp down the current until full.
Charge or discharge to 50% capacity if it is going to be stored for a while.
Most good programmable chargers will be able to handle lithium batteries, if you program them properly, but I would expect as soon as they become popular chargers, converters, and solar controllers will come out with lithium specific profiles

Do you find taking care of your cell phone battery more difficult than your rv battery or car battery? (Not directed at anyone, just making a point)

I do agree that cost is still prohibitive and my lead acid batteries work just fine for now but lithium is or will be a great alternative.

Cheers

[Nukeneck]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

Just 2 expensive and special handling for me. My 6V's work fine on the TT and the houseboat. Getting 5 or 6 years out of a set. The set on the houseboat came off of my last tt and are on year 6 and still ticking.

Until they get more main stream and cheaper, I'm good with the current types. Will probably buy another set of 6's when the old ones die.

Which 6v batteries are you using specifically? I'm looking into switching from my 2-12 volts

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by Nukeneck

Which 6v batteries are you using specifically? I'm looking into switching from my 2-12 volts

Sorry for delay in responding. Just got back from trip south and didn't have wifi for the last couple weeks.

My 6v's are Duracell procell #SLIGC125 and are rated at 132 min @ 75amps [same as Trojan T125. Got them thru my marine service shop. Think they were around $150 each.

[PlayersZ28]

I have 4x 6v Fullriver AGM's and would go Li next time around just for the drawn down space you have on them and the charge speed.

See Wheelingit.us for their writeup of a switch to Li.

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by PlayersZ28

I have 4x 6v Fullriver AGM's and would go Li next time around just for the drawn down space you have on them and the charge speed.

See Wheelingit.us for their writeup of a switch to Li.

Just don't need 4x of them. Don't run a full house inverter, just a 600w for the entertainment center and sat system. Can watch sat tv or movie from 7pm till midnite and the furnace all nite [near or just below freezing ] and a 2 hour charge with the Honda brings them back to full power.

[PlayersZ28]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

Just don't need 4x of them. Don't run a full house inverter, just a 600w for the entertainment center and sat system. Can watch sat tv or movie from 7pm till midnite and the furnace all nite [near or just below freezing ] and a 2 hour charge with the Honda brings them back to full power.

Mine won't be back to full from the overnight draw with a 2hr run. My fridge draws 1AH on propane. The OE charger won't do that as it goes into absorption mode too soon. The idiot lights on the panel say it's full but my monitor says I'm still short about 1/3 of the usage.

[Bassdogs]

Originally Posted by PlayersZ28

Mine won't be back to full from the overnight draw with a 2hr run. My fridge draws 1AH on propane. The OE charger won't do that as it goes into absorption mode too soon. The idiot lights on the panel say it's full but my monitor says I'm still short about 1/3 of the usage.

If I had a heavy use the night before, I connect a standalone charger hooked directly to the battery and I get a full charge usually within 2 hours or less. I don't rely on the on board charge thru the converter.

[Subaru297]

Originally Posted by Bassdogs

If I had a heavy use the night before, I connect a standalone charger hooked directly to the battery and I get a full charge usually within 2 hours or less. I don't rely on the on board charge thru the converter.

No offense intended here Bassdogs but how do you determine your battery is full?

I used to think my battery was full as well until I got a battery monitor as Players is referring to. With a battery monitor that measures amp hours removed and replaced you know what level you are at. Using voltage is a guessing game at best.

Cheers