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Old 04-13-2011, 10:47 AM   #21
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Westom, yes, your explanation is in-line with my suggestion, which is, the popular surge protectors aren't what many people expect.

Progressive industries does sell a surge protector model SSP-30, which plugs into the pedistal, then you plug your RV into it. They sell for $99. I'm afraid to ask the price in Canada This item would equal the Cutler-Hamer unit you mentioned.
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Old 04-13-2011, 05:15 PM   #22
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Moving right along now, I don`t even have a surge protector yet! I may have to put one on my wish list. One of Crabman`s many wants and needs.
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Old 04-13-2011, 05:17 PM   #23
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Great discussion and info!

So jwmmck -- hope you got your question answered - or at least a good amount of varied opinion and info so you are able to make an informed decision. You will find a lot of good discussions on these types of topics.

Be safe out there playing with electricity! Remember it is not the volts, its the amps



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Old 04-13-2011, 05:35 PM   #24
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First, I don't mean any ill-will,
So, in the interest of engineering accuracy, you will see in the attached thumbnail, for the V130LA20B MOV, when voltage reaches 350 volts, the MOV will be drawing about 30 amps (that much clamping action). If this event duration last for more than a few milli-seconds, which it could, this extra MOV current draw through the main breaker, will trip that breaker. Power dissipation ability of the MOV must be matched to the expected energy content (watt-seconds) of sustained over-voltage, until the main breaker opens up. The two will work in harmony. Note that, in the case of a direct lightning strike, this system is only marginally helpful. Mighty Thor has too much power available.
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:35 AM   #25
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Since the orginal post was about voltage regulation, here is a link to an industrial product which truly does regulate an AC supply source. That is, it will boost a steady low voltage condition, or reduce a steady over voltage condition, under load. The company is called Sola.

http://www.solahd.com/products/power...g/mcr_hard.htm

For the RV world, the AC supply protection devices typically seen, only shut down in a low voltage or over voltage situation. That approach is not regulation, but rather is protection. See Progressive Industries link.

http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems_hw30c.htm

I think I have said enough on this topic.
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Old 04-14-2011, 05:15 PM   #26
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So, in the interest of engineering accuracy, you will see in the attached thumbnail, for the V130LA20B MOV, when voltage reaches 350 volts, the MOV will be drawing about 30 amps (that much clamping action). If this event duration last for more than a few milli-seconds, which it could, this extra MOV current draw through the main breaker, will trip that breaker.
OK. 30 amps creating 350 volts for 20 milliseconds means the MOV is degraded on a first surge (see datasheet charts). Anything longer will probably create 'completely unacceptable' catastrophic destruction. I cannot say more because a transient that long is not even listed in those charts. Transient that long violates what MOV manufacturers intend. And may create a human safety issue.

Meanwhile, a 30 amp transient on a 20 amp circuit takes between 20 and 200 seconds to trip (numbers for various Square D 20 amp breakers). The MOV would have vaporized in flames before that circuit breaker even thought about tripping. That was my point. MOVs are not installed to trip circuit breakers or fuses.

MOVs are thermal fused. A 30 amp transient through an MOV causes an unacceptable (catastrophic) failure that endangers human life. A tiny thermal fuse would disconnect the MOV long before any fire and before any circuit breaker tripped. An effective surge protector is for transients that are hundreds or thousands of amps. And that occur in microseconds.

Surge Guard is a switch that disconnects from AC mains if prolonged AC voltage exceeds (for example) 132 volts.

MOV protector and the Surge Guard are for two completely different events. MOV based protector is for a microsecond transient. And requires a short connection to earth ground. The second is for an anomaly that may occur for seconds or hours. And does not require any earth ground.

Bottom line: Not listed are solutions for other anomalies such as power factor, frequency variation, harmonics, neutral failures, rapid power cycling, etc. For RV shore power, Surge Guard addresses a most common problem. A surge protector at the pedestal addresses a different and rare anomaly that is also so catastrophic. Two completely different solutions for two completely different problems.
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Old 04-14-2011, 05:26 PM   #27
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Man...I am a pretty technical person, but you guys are taxing my brain lol!

I am going to stick with my Flux Capacitor. If my camper ever hits 88, watch out!



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Old 04-14-2011, 06:10 PM   #28
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Thanks to all

for the input.... Think I'll grab one of these...


http://www.campingworld.com/shopping...egulators/7507
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:14 PM   #29
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And....

maybe one of these.............................



http://www.campingworld.com/shopping...rge-guard/2279
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Old 04-14-2011, 06:30 PM   #30
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I am really trying to follow these posts but am struggling. I am picking up my RV in a week. I am not sure what I need to get to protect my trailer. Surge guard or surge protector. If I get nothing what then? I am just trying to understand.

Thanks for all the help.
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:12 PM   #31
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I am really trying to follow these posts but am struggling. I am picking up my RV in a week. I am not sure what I need to get to protect my trailer. Surge guard or surge protector. If I get nothing what then? I am just trying to understand. Thanks for all the help.
I know what you mean. re: Too much details is more confusing then staying high-level.

For my TT setup (and if getting a new trailer next week as well), I would:

A - Purchase 30A RV voltage Monitor / Management system. Progressive has an affordable system at: http://www.dyersonline.com/progressi...nt-system.html

Note: I love "hard wire" devices because once installed, they are a "leave it and read it" usage device. And, lower risk of someone illegally removing it. Especially when installed inside the TT.

If wondering, this device monitors "too low" and "too high" of electrical current. If current is outside normal range, it then "switches off" the main power. And, keeps the switch off - until the AC unit has time to decompress itself. And, this device has "some" built in MOV surge protection as well. And, it has a nice display. Which, allows the person to easily read its numbers.

B - Where possible (re: on LCD TV outlet, rear fridge outlet, Coffee Pot outlet, your DVD/CD/Media Player outlet), I'd install a low cost "outlet" MOV surge protection device. If a power spike snuck past the Main Panel device, the "outlet" level device might lower the spike. For example: http://sales.buysmrt.com/Monster+Cab...rge+Suppressor

Note: Do shop around. I've seen this same device for as low as $15. Buy a few each year and in 3 years, all TT "electronic" sensitive outlets are protected.

If wondering, Main Panel and wall Outlet surge protection is called a 2 tier system. Double layers of protection. Some RV devices cannot have a 2nd tier (re: Ceiling mount AC unit, behind the walls Microwave, electric Hot Water tank, outside 110/120V outlet, bathroom GFCI outlet) but installing a 2nd tier surge protection "were possible" is a good idea.

If one's Progressive Monitor/ Management system is always "cutting off / switching off" the main power because the main power line is consistantly too low (re: under 103V), then install a Voltage Regulator. Many Voltage Regulator units boost (increase) main power. For example, increase from 102V to perhaps 109V (which stops the Progressive Management device from switching OFF - because its main power is now above 103V).

If wondering, I may have to install a future Voltage Regulator at my seasonal camp site. When all TT AC units "on the same electrical grid" are ON, my TT's volts drops down to 101-103 range. And, my Surge Guard device sometimes cuts off its main power. I may have to install a voltage regulator to "boost" power above its current lower 103 Volt limit. Only time will tell...

Hope this helps in your research....

.
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:23 PM   #32
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I am really trying to follow these posts but am struggling. I am picking up my RV in a week. I am not sure what I need to get to protect my trailer. Surge guard or surge protector. If I get nothing what then? I am just trying to understand.
Most of us do not use any device to test the AC coming into our RV. I didn't until recently. The deal is that under or over voltage on the AC supply can hurt your trailer. Bad wiring at the pedestal can hurt your trailer and maybe you. Surges - that is very short over voltages - can hurt your electronic devices in your trailer, like your converter, the refrigerator controls, etc.

For the bad wiring at the pedestal, you can buy a simple outlet tester at a home supply store. It checks for bad grounds, and backwards wired hot and neutral supply.

For surges, you can't do much cheaply.

For under and over voltage supply, you could buy an AC voltmeter and check the supply- of course, that only tells you it's condition then, and not in the afternoon at 90 degrees when everybody has their AC cranked up.

You could buy one of these or similar http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ssp_30.htm

You could do nothing special. That's what I did for 10 years, and nothing happened. I did use a polarity tester when I first hook up.
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:27 PM   #33
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If I get nothing what then? I am just trying to understand.

Thanks for all the help.
The honest answer is probably nothing. I am just guessing, but I would say 95% of trailers do not have protection. I have a Progressive Industries EMS, but didnt have one for a while. I just like the piece of mind it gives me. Before that, I checked the pedestal before I plugged in and make sure it was the correct voltage and wired properly - and I also had a volt meter in the camper so I could keep an eye if it dropped too low when everyone had AC turned on.

I personally think of it more as insurance - you just have to choose if you want to live without it or not but I dont think you should worry if you go out the door without it.



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Old 04-16-2011, 06:18 AM   #34
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Bottom line: Not listed are solutions for other anomalies such as power factor, frequency variation, harmonics, neutral failures, rapid power cycling, etc. For RV shore power, Surge Guard addresses a most common problem. A surge protector at the pedestal addresses a different and rare anomaly that is also so catastrophic. Two completely different solutions for two completely different problems.
I agree totally.
There is a small chance of a surge protector going up in smoke, or a small chance of it going to a short circuit. Thus, pedistal location is best place for a surge protector.
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Old 04-16-2011, 06:23 AM   #35
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The honest answer is probably nothing. I am just guessing, but I would say 95% of trailers do not have protection. I have a Progressive Industries EMS, but didnt have one for a while. I just like the piece of mind it gives me. Before that, I checked the pedestal before I plugged in and make sure it was the correct voltage and wired properly - and I also had a volt meter in the camper so I could keep an eye if it dropped too low when everyone had AC turned on.

I personally think of it more as insurance - you just have to choose if you want to live without it or not but I dont think you should worry if you go out the door without it.
Yes, the chances of having problems when you use nothing, is very low. You would probably win the lottery first.
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:21 AM   #36
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Thanks for all the advice. My train of thought was if it was a serious issue wouldn't the trailer companies have them installed? Thanks once again.

Cheers
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:22 AM   #37
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Generac makes an expensive ac volt meter (on line 20.00+-)it plugs in and has an outlet on the face so you don't loose the outlet. I saw it work when I pluged in my son's truck block heater and the voltage went from 120v to 115v due to voltage drop(200' distance form the elect panel to the truck and 16ga wire in the cord)besides the numerical scale it also has a color change ie green, yellow & red to alert you of low voltage.
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Old 04-16-2011, 08:23 AM   #38
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Sorry, I meant to say INexpensive
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:26 AM   #39
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Generac makes an in-expensive ac volt meter (on line 20.00+-)it plugs in and has an outlet on the face so you don't loose the outlet. I saw it work when I pluged in my son's truck block heater and the voltage went from 120v to 115v due to voltage drop(200' distance form the elect panel to the truck and 16ga wire in the cord)besides the numerical scale it also has a color change ie green, yellow & red to alert you of low voltage.
Yes, and here is another low cost product to monitor for "brown-out" conditions, if you like to do that.

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Produc...uctid=MFJ-850B
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:31 AM   #40
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Yes, and here is another low cost product to monitor for "brown-out" conditions, if you like to do that.

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Produc...uctid=MFJ-850B
Now that one I have!
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