2014 Cherokee and X17Z, WDH, Tongue Weight...

Jayshaw91 · 06-20-2015, 02:44 PM

Essentially another 'can I tow it?'. I know. Great first post

Anyway, we went to the CAT scale today. Assuming I did everything right, the x17z supposedly has a tongue weight of 620 with LP, battery, and loaded. I've seen somewhere that someone had a similar TW, which is really interesting seeing the trailer is 3500lbs.

The Cherokee can pull this fine. Barely breaks a sweat with the factory tow package. We've got a WDH, and here's where I've got questions.

Class III hitches are rated for 500lb TW, 5000 tow weight without a WDH. With a WDH those numbers double to 1000TW/10,000 tow (from what I've read).

The Cherokee - NOT A GRAND - has a TW max of 450lbs without a WDH. I cannot, for the life of me, find any info on what the TW capacity is for the vehicle when using a WDH. It's obviously more than 450lbs... but nobody has a clue. The dealer didn't have info. The parts guy spend 20 minutes trying to help to no avail.

So, would we be idiots towing the x17z with my Cherokee due to TW issues, or do you think the WDH will make it ok?

The Cherokee and trailer are level when hooked up. The deal did a good job with that setup.

Thanks!

Rustic Eagle · 06-20-2015, 03:07 PM

Jayshaw91,

Welcome to JOF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayshaw91

snip.......The Cherokee - NOT A GRAND - has a TW max of 450lbs without a WDH. I cannot, for the life of me, find any info on what the TW capacity is for the vehicle when using a WDH. It's obviously more than 450lbs... but nobody has a clue. The dealer didn't have info. The parts guy spend 20 minutes trying to help to no avail.....snip

Unfortunately the 450b maximum tongue weight (from Cherokee Owners Manual) that you are referencing is just that, the maximum tongue with or without a WDH. I believe you will find that your Owners Manual doesn't distinguish between Weight Carrying and Weight Distribution in the Trailer Towing Weight specifications....., all weights specified are maximum.

It also explains why there isn't any available documentation sighting a Weight Distribution tongue weight value (W/WDH).

Also, please keep in mind that the Owners Manual Trailer Towing Weights trumps your OEM receiver weight ratings.

Bob

Filthy-Beast · 06-20-2015, 03:43 PM

On both of my trucks there was a sticker on the hitch that listed max tongue weight. I had crawl under the trucks to find it. Not sure it the Jeep has the same thing.

Filthy-Beast · 06-20-2015, 03:54 PM

that tongue weight is over the max recommend of 15%, if you re-balance the load in trailer and get down to the 12 to 13% for tongue weight you be right at the max for your hitch.

On my trucks a WD hitch is not required until you go over pulling 5,000# your hitch might not be built to take a WD hitich. What's in the manual about towing?

Tigger1 · 06-20-2015, 04:24 PM

Welcome to the forum!
I bought a Sherline 2000 trailer scale and recently checked the tongue weight at the ball coupler and it was 495-500 lbs. loaded. This included full propane tanks, battery, spare tire, and power Jack. We don't carry any water and generally pack light. Your tongue weight seems a little high but you may be storing more in your x17z then we are.

Jayshaw91 · 06-20-2015, 07:17 PM

I think we're packed pretty light, but that's opinion, I guess. I could be wrong.

I just read the 'how to' guide for weighing your vehicle. That's not at all how we did it. We disconnected the trailer from the TV and put the tongue on the first plate, and the trailer was on the second plate. We took the weight off of the first plate as our tongue weight. Was that completely wrong?

If so, it looks like another trip to the CAT is in order.

Filthy-Beast · 06-20-2015, 07:26 PM

that will be close, did you add the weight from both scale pads together to get your total weight of 3500?

I ask because if the rear was 3500 you add the tongue weight to that for a total trailer weight of 4150 and 15% of that is close to your tongue weight of 620.

Rustic Eagle · 06-20-2015, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayshaw91

snip...... Was that completely wrong?........snip

No..., that will give you a pretty good representation of your tongue weight.

Just a FYI, CAT Scales have 40lb plus/minus tolerance.

Bob

Jayshaw91 · 06-20-2015, 09:18 PM

Thanks for the feedback, folks. This sucks. We bought the Cherokee and the X17Z thinking it'd work. I guess I can thank the trailer salesman for that one. I told him the tongue weight we were working with and he told me I'd be fine.

I have no idea how this thing has a 620lb tongue weight.

Seeing this is way over tongue weight and there isn't really much we can remove from the camper, I guess I'm buying a new vehicle. Wonderful.

Pots and pans (light stuff, not cast iron), PLASTIC plates and bowls, four camper chairs (bagged ones), a handful of tools - really, some lights, a cheap coffee maker, silverware, and a mattress pad is about all that's in the camper. There's more, but it isn't a lot. Like I said, that's not much. I don't know how you travel with less.

Filthy-Beast · 06-20-2015, 10:01 PM

Can you shift weight rear of the wheels of the TT? It will remove weight from the tongue.

You could also add more stuff and put it rear of wheels. While it will increase total weight it will remove tongue weight.

ttavasc · 06-20-2015, 10:45 PM

It might be worth investing in the Sherline scale - they run about $140 from etrailer.com. You can experiment with various different loading scenarios without having to run to the scales every time you want to check the TW. As suggested earlier if you can get it down to 11-12% you should be OK. However, it may be that with battery and 2 full LP tanks on the tongue staying under 450 when fully loaded on this model might not be possible.

I found the Sherline to be a great help as I was able to just spend an afternoon seeing how various load configurations affected the TW and what the effect was of having partial or full black/grey tanks.

Rustic Eagle · 06-20-2015, 11:03 PM

Jayshaw91,

Unfortunately the X17Z has a very limited amount of cargo capacity, the yellow sticker on the side of your HTT will have the actual CCC weight value "as shipped" ((includes weight when LP tank(s) are filled), but doesn't include weight of battery (dealer supplied).

I would take your loaded TV/HTT back to the CAT scale and do the 3-step weigh-in process described in the link below. This will confirm if there was any unknown issue (location on scale platforms, etc.) with the prior CAT visit when the HTT was weighed independent from the TV.

CAT Scale how-to: http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...v-tt-3871.html

Also, I assume that you didn't have any fluid in your tanks (fresh water, etc.), because this can effect tongue weight dramatically.

But I agree, a 620lb tongue weight is on the heavy side for 3,500b GVWR HTT. The recommended loaded tongue weight range for the X17Z with a gross weight of 3,500lbs is 350lbs to 525lbs (10% to 15% of gross).

Here are a couple of recent JOF threads on the subject of the X17Z's limited cargo capacity that may provide some further insight:

http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...n-17330-2.html

http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...n-17330-2.html

http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...it-9733-2.html

Here is another JOF member's X17Z CAT scale results:

http://www.jaycoowners.com/forums/f3...s-11421-2.html

Maybe something in the above links will provide a solution for you without the expense of a new TV.

Bob

Jayshaw91 · 06-21-2015, 09:15 AM

Really guys, I cannot thank you enough for all of this info.

And that's the issue with the X17Z is the limited CCC, plus there is little storage space behind the axle. Most of it is forward of the axle. The X19H, a bigger TT, has a lighter tongue weight. The X17Z is just a tongue heavy TT from what I'm reading.

A lot of "live and learn" has happened here. Even if I get the weight down to 500lbs on the tongue, it's still 50lbs over the vehicle max. Tomorrow I'm going to go and get a GMC Sierra. Problem (partly) solved for the X17Z - and solved for pretty much any future travel trailer we buy. I still have to get the tongue weight figured out.

Tigger1 · 06-21-2015, 10:38 AM

Life is full of trade-offs isn't it. We had to upgrade our TV also for the 17z. On the positive side, this is a nice HTT for the two of us. We can get into all camping spaces without worrying. It also fits nicely into the rear of our driveway so no need to pay for storage somewhere. We are really enjoying ours but this is from the perspective of life-long pop-up campers looking to get a little more amenities as we get older, like a bathroom! The trailer has also been solid, no problems.
Best of luck and hope you Enjoy your trailer!

Rustic Eagle · 06-21-2015, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayshaw91

snip...... Tomorrow I'm going to go and get a GMC Sierra. Problem (partly) solved for the X17Z - and solved for pretty much any future travel trailer we buy. I still have to get the tongue weight figured out.

With the Sierra as a TV you can place your supplemental X17Z cargo in the cargo bed of the TV while in tow (addresses the X17Z overweight issues). A couple large Rubbermaid storage containers will keep your HTT items together, and when your HTT is not in use just store the filled containers in the HTT.

The Sierra TV will allow you to load the X17Z such that you will be able to meet the recommended 10% to 15% tongue weight range easily, without exceeding it's GVWR of 3,500lbs.

Bob

Jayshaw91 · 06-21-2015, 05:20 PM

I've got a trip planned for this weekend, hence these questions and my statement on getting a new vehicle tomorrow. That may happen, but I'm now backup up a step due to what I've read.

My plan, now, is to take one of the LP tanks off (I could probably remove both - won't need them) and put the spare tire in the trunk of the Cherokee. That looks like 85lbs (45 for the spare, I read, and 40 for the tank). That gets me to 535lbs on the tongue, roughly.

Then we're re-balancing the load and moving a lot of things near the front of the trailer to the bathroom. That should help considerably. And trust me when I say there is still plenty front-loaded stuff. The tongue weight is like 345 from the factory, so there's no way I can see I'd get the tongue below 10%. If I did, I'd have to load up the entire rear of the trailer, which, in itself, is terribly unsafe.

Ok, correct my thinking if I am wrong here. Math story problem time

Moving a 20lb object from the front of the TT to behind the axle will actually reduce the tongue weight by more than 20lbs, right? Can you say it'd change it by 40lbs? I'm guessing that's a 'no' and it'd depend on where it was placed behind the axle, plus knowing the front of the TT is more heavily balanced toward the front, my guess the effect would be minimized by this. Think of it like a teeter totter that isn't balanced directly in the middle.

Anyone dare to venture a guess on how much weight I'd need to move fore to aft to reduce the tongue weight by about 100lbs?

Rustic Eagle · 06-21-2015, 08:19 PM

Jaysaw91,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayshaw91

snip..... a 20lb object from the front of the TT to behind the axle will actually reduce the tongue weight by more than 20lbs, right? Can you say it'd change it by 40lbs?

I don't believe you would see a full 40lb reduction at the tongue, because the 20lb item's original front location didn't impact a full 20lbs at the tongue (tongue weight is measured at the hitch ball coupler). For a 100% item weight effect on the tongue the item would have to be placed right above the HTT's coupler. The closer an item's location is to the coupler, the higher percentage of it's actual weight is realized at the tongue (coupler). Depending on how far to the rear of the HTT the original 20lb item can be placed IMO will result in a tongue weight reduction greater then 20lbs (including the original % of item weight removed) just how much more is difficult to predict. Your "teeter totter" analogy is spot-on.

I think your plan has merit..., remove & place the spare in the Cherokee, remove one LP tank, and move as many items as possible within the HTT to the rear. Place the front bed mattress on the top of the rear bed, stack cushions to the rear, etc.. Removal of the spare tire and the one LP tank will reduce the gross weight and will reduce the 10% to 15% tongue weight range as well (in your favor). The only way to confirm your efforts would require a CAT scale visit with your Cherokee/X17Z combination.

Just curious, did you state that when you weighed the X17Z independently at the CAT scale that it's gross CAT scale weight (weight of both scale platforms) was 3,500lbs?

Bob

Jayshaw91 · 06-21-2015, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustic Eagle

Jaysaw91,

Just curious, did you state that when you weighed the X17Z independently at the CAT scale that it's gross CAT scale weight (weight of both scale platforms) was 3,500lbs?

Bob

Yep... that I did. Assuming the weight of the trailer was spot on and the tongue weight was right, the total was 3480. 2860 for the trailer, 620 for the tongue.

This is why this thing may not make it more than one season...

I was just reading a thread on another RV forum talking about the X17Z - and all TT's like it - being almost criminal in that they're sold. No cargo capacity, the axle is all but maxed out, and most 3500lb rated TVs (i.e. the Cherokee!) can't actually pull this thing - or at least shouldn't. Sums it up about right, IMO.

Rustic Eagle · 06-22-2015, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayshaw91

Yep... that I did. Assuming the weight of the trailer was spot on and the tongue weight was right, the total was 3480. 2860 for the trailer, 620 for the tongue.......snip

Thanks for the follow-up...., just wanted to make sure we weren't dealing with an overweight issue, I had assumed we weren't.

Bob

Subaru297 · 06-23-2015, 08:01 AM

I wouldn't give up on it yet. I think a fair number of trailers have the problem off too much front storage. In our trailer the first time we took it out we were over 15% tongue weight too. We have to pack all non permanent items in the rear bunkbeds whenever we travel to keep the tongue weight around 13%.
You just need to reorganize some things to shift the weight around. You are not overweight.

What is the Jeeps payload capacity? It will be on a sticker on the drivers door jamb. If you have capacity in the Jeep after passengers and tongue weight then you can load extra camping stuff there.

Cheers

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