Diesel vs. Gas Cost Analysis

[FeatherFam]

Okay, Fellers - I am ready for class:

Is there an accurate/reliable cost analysis of diesel vs. gas operation and ownership. I read about the added expense of diesel fuel and vehicle care, but what is the point at which the diesel becomes more financially viable than a gas vehicle? In other words, is there a mileage level where the diesels higher maintenance, service, and fuel costs are offset by the years and miles of operation? I am assuming that a diesel should be capable of a much longer service life. Maybe that assumption should be questioned as well(?).

For example, let's say you were going to put 200,00 miles on the TV. Would there be a cost advantage or disadvantage to the more expensive diesel? How much more would it cost to run a diesel vs. a gas TV for 200,000 miles (all maintenance, fuel, and service included for each)?

Let's operate under the fact that the diesel has clear power advantages when it comes to the biggest towable creatures, but let's figure that we are not towing the baddest beasts, but rather a low to mid level fiver (10,000-13,000# ) or 7,000-8,000# TT - stated/approx. GVWR.

[clubhouse]

Don't overthink this.

If you want a diesel for it premium towing experience, get one.

If you are concerned with potentially spending $100 year more in maintanence, and the initial $6000 premium (which you get back when sell) are to much for you then stick with a gasser.

[FeatherFam]

Originally Posted by clubhouse

Don't overthink this.

If you want a diesel for it premium towing experience, get one.

If you are concerned with potentially spending $100 year more in maintanence, and the initial $6000 premium (which you get back when sell) are to much for you then stick with a gasser.

Is this all there is to it? If so, thanks. If accurate, $100/yr is not much at all. Does this number factor in fuel, routine maintenance, repairs, and part costs over the vehicle's life? My cursory understanding is that diesels are more expensive to repair and their parts can be more expensive. Forgive me. I am very detailed in my research before making major purchases. DW regularly calls me the ombudsman.

This will be our retirement purchase (fixed income); we need to get it right. And we will need the TV to serve us well for 15 years. I estimate that we will put about 7,000-10,00/year on it. It will stay in a carport with me doing the regular maintenance, including tune up, drivetrain care, and fluid flushes, Lord willing.

[oldmanAZ]

Too many variables, IMO.

Will you be doing your own routine maintenance - lube, oil, filers, etc? Will you do them at the mileage stated by the manufacturer? More often? Less often?

When getting up grades, does engine longevity matter to you or do you want to show how many (Ford/Ram/Chevy/semis) you can pass?

In your example, when you say' 200,000 miles', do you mean towing miles or both towing and non-towing miles? If not all towing miles, what % would be towing miles - 1%, 10%, 75%, or ???

EDIT: I see you've answered some of my questions.

[Pfflyer]

Maintenance costs with modern diesels throws off calculations but considering just fuel costs it fairly easy to do. Last time I did this I had a gas truck that averaged 19mpg and a diesel van that averaged 23mpg. Every 1000 miles it would take 52.63 gallons to fill up the truck and 43.48 to fill up the van. With an average price of gas @$2.278 it would cost $119.89 every 1000 miles and with average diesel @$2.491 it would cost $108.31 every 1000 miles. With those #'s and your 200,000 miles you would save $2,316.00 with diesel. Diesels do have a higher resale value but also cost what $5,000 to $10,000 more than gas engines in similar equipped models. So initial cost and resale may be a wash. As far as maintenance costs go in tow vehicles go, I will leave that up to someone that has more recent experiences with modern gas and diesel trucks and costs for 200k service life. My experience with diesels is limited to 150,000 miles in a used 93 F250 7.3l diesel with no turbo (purchased with 250k miles) and about 150k almost trouble free miles in Mercedes diesels. Any recent repairs have been covered under the emissions warranty but could have easily cost more than 200,000 miles fuel savings listed earlier. My oil changes may cost more because of MB oil specs and because of luxury loaner vehicles or "free" drinks and snacks if I choose to wait for service. A DIY oil change costs about $100 alone in oil and parts but it is only every 10k miles.

[FeatherFam]

Originally Posted by oldmanAZ

Too many variables, IMO.

Will you be doing your own routine maintenance - lube, oil, filers, etc? Will you do them at the mileage stated by the manufacturer? More often? Less often?

When getting up grades, does engine longevity matter to you or do you want to show how many (Ford/Ram/Chevy/semis) you can pass?

In your example, when you say' 200,000 miles', do you mean towing miles or both towing and non-towing miles? If not all towing miles, what % would be towing miles - 1%, 10%, 75%, or ???

EDIT: I see you've answered some of my questions.

Thank you! Yes, I will be doing the maintenance as long as I can; I am in decent shape, so far.

I anticipate 75% of the mileage will be towing as the truck will be a dedicated TV after a couple of years of ownership. While I do not want to sputter and bog down to a crawl, we are mellow cruisers on the road - no hurry or need to blow by anyone. The big 8's and a stout differential seem like more than enough for us. But that is part of the ask - I am not sure since I have never owned a nice 2500 or 3500. Would a well-equipped gasser struggle with the weights that I am considering?

[robkelly]

Originally Posted by clubhouse

Don't overthink this.

If you want a diesel for it premium towing experience, get one.

If you are concerned with potentially spending $100 year more in maintanence, and the initial $6000 premium (which you get back when sell) are to much for you then stick with a gasser.

X2

[FeatherFam]

Originally Posted by Pfflyer

Maintenance costs with modern diesels throws off calculations but considering just fuel costs it fairly easy to do. Last time I did this I had a gas truck that averaged 19mpg and a diesel van that averaged 23mpg. Every 1000 miles it would take 52.63 gallons to fill up the truck and 43.48 to fill up the van. With an average price of gas @$2.278 it would cost $119.89 every 1000 miles and with average diesel @$2.491 it would cost $108.31 every 1000 miles. With those #'s and your 200,000 miles you would save $2,316.00 with diesel. Diesels do have a higher resale value but also cost what $5,000 to $10,000 more than gas engines in similar equipped models. So initial cost and resale may be a wash. As far as maintenance costs go in tow vehicles go, I will leave that up to someone that has more recent experiences with modern gas and diesel trucks and costs for 200k service life. My experience with diesels is limited to 150,000 miles in a used 93 F250 7.3l diesel with no turbo (purchased with 250k miles) and about 150k almost trouble free miles in Mercedes diesels. Any recent repairs have been covered under the emissions warranty but could have easily cost more than 200,000 miles fuel savings listed earlier. My oil changes may cost more because of MB oil specs and because of luxury loaner vehicles or "free" drinks and snacks if I choose to wait for service. A DIY oil change costs about $100 alone in oil and parts but it is only every 10k miles.

Helpful and interesting - Thank you!

[repacs0103]

It will be much more than $100/yr.

15 years ago a diesel could pay for itself over a gasser in about 150,000-200,000 miles. Nowadays I don't think a diesel ever pays for itself, but I still drive a diesel because of the power advantage that I'm willing to pay for. Modern diesels get the same or worse fuel economy than older engines, plus require more frequent fuel filter changes, DEF, and have a higher incidence of turbo and injector failures.

In the first few years I'd say the added annual cost is only about $200-$400/year depending whether you do the work yourself or not (additional diesel oil capacity, fuel filter changes and DEF)

If you're going to keep the truck for 15 years though, be ready. On my Ford 6.7 it got a new long block at 38,000 and a new turbo at 165,000. Somehow I'm now at 198,000 on the original DPF. I know I'm headed for injectors and a DPF or DPF delete soon. I've also religiously changed fluids and filters (including fuel, coolant, oil, brake, ps, trans) at Ford's recommended schedules. This is especially important with fuel filters and coolant in regards to maintaining the injection system and the turbo. All are $$.

The other end of the spectrum is the tuned up 94 Cummins 5.9 I have in a work truck. It finally got a new turbo 2 years ago at 402,000. Original injectors, pump and all other internals. It puts out about 340 hp and 780 tq, so very close to my 6.7 Ford, but it gets 2 mpg better in a truck that weighs 2000# more. It also doesn't take DEF and most parts are readily available and cheap, plus it's 100% mechanical- the only wire it needs to run is to the starter. Ah, the good old days.


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[FeatherFam]

Originally Posted by repacs0103

It will be much more than $100/yr.

15 years ago a diesel could pay for itself over a gasser in about 150,000-200,000 miles. Nowadays I don't think a diesel ever pays for itself, but I still drive a diesel because of the power advantage that I'm willing to pay for. Modern diesels get the same or worse fuel economy than older engines, plus require more frequent fuel filter changes, DEF, and have a higher incidence of turbo and injector failures.

In the first few years I'd say the added annual cost is only about $200-$400/year depending whether you do the work yourself or not (additional diesel oil capacity, fuel filter changes and DEF)

If you're going to keep the truck for 15 years though, be ready. On my Ford 6.7 it got a new long block at 38,000 and a new turbo at 165,000. Somehow I'm now at 198,000 on the original DPF. I know I'm headed for injectors and a DPF or DPF delete soon. I've also religiously changed fluids and filters (including fuel, coolant, oil, brake, ps, trans) at Ford's recommended schedules. This is especially important with fuel filters and coolant in regards to maintaining the injection system and the turbo. All are $$.

The other end of the spectrum is the tuned up 94 Cummins 5.9 I have in a work truck. It finally got a new turbo 2 years ago at 402,000. Original injectors, pump and all other internals. It puts out about 340 hp and 780 tq, so very close to my 6.7 Ford, but it gets 2 mpg better in a truck that weighs 2000# more. It also doesn't take DEF and most parts are readily available and cheap, plus it's 100% mechanical- the only wire it needs to run is to the starter. Ah, the good old days.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you so much! I appreciate your candor. I have often heard that the older diesels would churn longer with fewer problems, but I have no actual experience myself.

I am wondering where the jump off point is, from a gasser to a diesel. At what tow weight does a gasser become so much more less desirable than a diesel? Surely, a "beefy" gasser has some range of excellent performance capability. (?)

[clubhouse]

Originally Posted by FeatherFam

Is this all there is to it? If so, thanks. If accurate, $100/yr is not much at all. Does this number factor in fuel, routine maintenance, repairs, and part costs over the vehicle's life? My cursory understanding is that diesels are more expensive to repair and their parts can be more expensive. Forgive me. I am very detailed in my research before making major purchases. DW regularly calls me the ombudsman.

This will be our retirement purchase (fixed income); we need to get it right. And we will need the TV to serve us well for 15 years. I estimate that we will put about 7,000-10,00/year on it. It will stay in a carport with me doing the regular maintenance, including tune up, drivetrain care, and fluid flushes, Lord willing.

My 10 year old Duramax, dedicated tow vehicle and weekender task truck, has had 2 repairs...

Replacement of Body Control Module .... ~$1000
Replace 2 glow plugs .... ~$125 each

I put about 7500 miles a year on it. I'm the second owner, currently it has 125,000 miles.

I don't do my own maintenance, so I pay the "quick lube" shop ...

~ $80 per oil change @ 5000
~ every other oil change I replace the fuel filter ~$50
~ my Allison Transmission is running Transynd. Per Allison its 100k+ fluid, so I all I do is change the spin on filter every 10k miles and top off the lost fluid ... $20/ time

Fully realize I can cut this cost in 1/2 if I did it myself.

So yes, it's only $100-$200 more depending on mileage.

As for fuel economy, and I don't need DEF, I get ~12 towing & ~18 not towing, vs when I had a 1500 gasser I experienced ~9 towing and the same ~18 not towing.

If the finances are your primary concern then maybe a diesel isn't for you. If you can justify the few hundred $ more per year, there is no comparison to towing with a diesel.

This is a personal decision only your value system and financial situation can determine.

I will never got back to towing with a gasser.

[goducks]

Diesels are more $$$ to maintain than gassers plain and simple. Yes if you tow 1000's of miles then the cost of fuel can offset that. But how many recreational towers ever do that? Diesels last longer than gassers. So what. How many on here keep their trucks for 10-15 years. I'm tired of mine after 7-8 years. If you want or need a diesel then just get it. I look at the diesel option as I look at any other option. I don't need leather seats so I didn't get them. I needed a diesel so I got it. I don't look at resale any different either. Some say you get more on resale with a diesel. Well you should, it costs more up front.

[Mustang65]

You may find this interesting....

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1...nt-and-future/

Don

My Registry

RVing with SOLAR

[Rustic Eagle]

Originally Posted by FeatherFam

snip...... Would a well-equipped gasser struggle with the weights that I am considering?

IMO no......, but it also depends on your personal towing expectations under different towing conditions (mountains, etc.) and personal loading habits.

My present Eagle's (9,000lb GVWR) loaded weight on extended trips (4-6 months) is 8,500lbs with a 1,300lb loaded tongue weight (CAT scale). My prior TV was a 2002 2500HD 6.0L/4:10 (14 year ownership) gasser which for the most part met my TV/TT towing expectations except the torque of a diesel in some mountain travel conditions would have been a nice plus. My new 2016 2500HD 6.0L/4:10 gasser has proven to do a better job in the limited mountain travel this past year with the same 8,500lb loaded weight TT.

In my case I decided that a heavy (9,000lb plus "loaded" weight) FW or TT wasn't in my future so my new TV remained a 3/4 ton gasser..., otherwise I would have purchased a diesel with the cost differential being moot. So, based on my personal towing expectations and travel history a 9,000lb "loaded weight" was my gasser/diesel cross-over point.

Bob

[TWP723]

Too many variables for such a comparison in my opinion. Comparing a gas truck with a diesel truck is like comparing a helicopter to an airplane. They both fly but do it in complete different ways. Diesels habitually cost more to buy and maintain. Gas vehicles are cheaper to operate opposed to diesels. Contrary to what many think, not every fueling station carries diesel. Diesel oil changes are double and in some cases triple the cost of a gas oil change. When diesels break, they break bigtime. Nothing's cheap on them. Diesels tow more weight with ease (something to think about if you think you may upgrade your RV). Gas engine vehicles have approx. 1/2 the torque a comparable diesel truck has. If you're buying new, diesel warranties are considerably more than gas warranties due to the parts they cover. When the warranty ends, diesel repairs can be a back breaker. All sorts of stupid little things to consider.


And I just priced this out for a cash customer...


Diesel drop-in engine. $13,212.00 (engine only..no labor)

[bdreinv]

If your towing a camper over 9000 lbs. Diesel. You wont regret it. We have an 06 Ram 3500 dully bought new. It works for us!

[FeatherFam]

Of course, the savings will have the final say. We have our dream rig, but we also have to be real about our finances. We could handle the initial outlay for the diesel, but an expensive repair or two could be a significant blow to our travel budget. If we were to move out of "1/2 ton towables," it seems that there are numerous TT models that a 3/4 ton would handle really well. By the same token, it seems that in the FW realm we would be more limited with the gas 3/4 ton. One FW that we like has an 11,200 "gross dry weight" and a 16,000 GVWR and a 2,700 "dry hitch weight." How do you think a gas 2500 would handle that? It seems like diesel and 3500 territory to me.

I do think costly repairs and parts could be a financial back-breaker for us. That is a concern for me. We will not have an excessive expendable income. I also think that I can personally (physically, tools, and cost) manage the routine care of a gas TV a bit easier than a diesel. I am also anticipating being able to less of the servicing myself as I age.

[Midnightmoon]

Let me add my $.02 here. Sorry, this is going to be long.

I have owned and driven diesel vehicles since 1991 and have worked in my friends diesel repair/performance shop since 2001. I have done everything from minor maintenance to full performance engine builds and everything in between on everything offered from Ford, GM, and Dodge. My current fleet of personally owned diesel powered vehicles includes a 2007 Ram 2500 5.9L, a 2004.5 Ram 2500 5.9L, and a 2015 Mercedes-Benz Sprinter 2.1L. I have also owned in the past a 1985 Chevy K20 6.2L, 1992 Ram W-250 5.9L, and a 2005 Chevy Silverado 2500 6.6L Duramax.

Ok, on with my opinion. Up until the new diesel emission standards that appeared Jan of 2007, this would have been an easier answer. The old, pre-emissions diesels, were capable of being used day in and day out as daily drivers and weekend tow vehicles without issues. As long as you kept them reasonably well maintained (which literally meant regular oil changes and fuel filter changes) and ran clean fuel through them, the were long lasting excellent vehicles. Yes, there were some problems with some manufactures defects, but for the most part, they would be of zero issue. This is the time when diesel ownership or the allure of diesel ownership became so popular.

Post Jan 2007, with the need to comply with the new EPA standards, manufacturers added first diesel particulate filters and EGR and then SCR. With the addition of each system, the vehicles have become more complex, more difficult/expensive to maintain, and quite frankly less reliable. Now with that said, they are getting better with each passing year. To say that these emission systems have suffered growing pains would be an understatement. Before you decide to buy a modern diesel, please familiarize yourself with the issues that each brand has, and trust me when I say that they all have had and still have issues. I can tell you as plainly as I can that you will not be able to do any maintenance beyond fluid and filter changes on any new diesel truck that you would purchase without specific diagnostic equipment and lots of experience with these emission systems.

So let's talk about long term ownership of a modern diesel. As long as your new truck is under warranty, drive it and enjoy it. Once it comes out of warranty, here are some things that you may be faced with. DPF issues begin to tend to happen on these trucks in the 100K-150K range depending on drive/duty cycles and believe it or not, sometimes much sooner when these trucks are operated in short trip/light duty situations. Issues that we are seeing with the SCR systems tend to be more random in nature. They also seem to be more difficult to diagnose and repair. You will also read of turbo failures, egr cooler failures, injector issues, etc. Repairs of any of these systems and components run in the thousands, not hundreds of dollars. What's worse is that there are seemingly fewer dealership techs and independent shops that have a good handle on working on these things. I can't tell you the number of customer trucks that we have worked on recently that have just had parts thrown at them at other shops costing the owner $$$$$ without actually fixing the vehicle. Now someone will probably chime in and say that they have had their truck for X amount of time and it has been completely trouble free. Is that true and possible? Absolutely. Tens of thousands of happy owners exist out there. But our experience tells us that there is also a significant percentage of owners that don't have such a positive experience and we certainly know how costly those repairs are.

OK, now that I have scared you, let me bring this conversation back around. If you really want to tow on a regular basis, nothing beats a diesel. Once you tow with one, you simply will not want to go back to a gas powered truck. Just understand that you are not buying a vehicle that you can realistically expect 10-15 years of trouble free ownership without some sort of potentially costly repair. There are alternatives such a deletion of the emission systems that many owners choose to do instead of making the repairs. I'm not going to discuss that here since it is very hot button topic, but know that it does happen and why it often is what the owners choose to do.

If I were to buy an new truck tomorrow it would be a new diesel. The performance is that much better. Again, I didn't post this to scare you away from a diesel purchase. I just want you to be aware.

[norty1]

No cost studies here but I have owned 2 diesels and 2 gassers. If I were only planning to never pull over 8000 in a TT, I would not even look at a diesel.

If you think you will ever want a fifth wheel or a heavier trailer, it's decision time.

I can tell you that the cost of filters and quantity of liquids are more expensive for a diesel. I have had items go bad on both my diesels that I had no knowledge of how to even start the repair myself. Very costly.

I'm pulling a 13k fifth wheel so I am regulated to a diesel IMO, no matter the cost.

[FeatherFam]

Really interesting and very helpful! We have some true experts here.