Increase payload capacity with air bags

[JohnWedell]

Not looking to start an argument but I find posts like this funny. There’s always someone out there looking for affirmation to tow something heavier than they can legally, but because somebody else is doing it it eases their mind that they can too.
On a minor fender bender nobody really cares what you’re towing, but have someone die at the scene and good luck. You’ll lose everything you own. There has to be a reason the manufacturers come out with these numbers. I’d rather be safe than sorry. (by that reasoning I can use a 12K hitch to pull a 14k fifth wheel). I am truly sorry if I insulted anyone, It was not my intention.

[Midnightmoon]

Originally Posted by JohnWedell

Not looking to start an argument but I find posts like this funny. There’s always someone out there looking for affirmation to tow something heavier than they can legally, but because somebody else is doing it it eases their mind that they can too.
On a minor fender bender nobody really cares what you’re towing, but have someone die at the scene and good luck. You’ll lose everything you own. There has to be a reason the manufacturers come out with these numbers. I’d rather be safe than sorry. (by that reasoning I can use a 12K hitch to pull a 14k fifth wheel). I am truly sorry if I insulted anyone, It was not my intention.

Not discounting your position, but the laws concerning GVWR are not often clearly understood, especially since they often vary from state to state. Here is PA's direct wording on the subject from the vehicle code.

§ 4942. Registered gross weight.

* * *

(c) Combination.--No combination containing a trailer having a gross weight or registered gross weight in excess of 10,000 pounds shall be operated with a gross weight in excess of the registered gross weight of the truck or truck tractor for a combination. This subsection shall not apply to a combination of vehicles consisting of a motor vehicle towing a recreational trailer or recreational cargo trailer, registered as such, as long as the combination weight does not exceed the sum of the manufacturer's rated axle capacities or the gross combination weight rating, whichever is less.

Here's the full document.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs...sInd=0&act=138


As you can see, here in PA the only numbers that matter are the Axle capacities (Much like DOT regs by the way) and GCWR. Manufacturers GVWR does not apply. Only things to be considered are your registered gross weight for the combination if you are commercial and axle ratings and GCWR for RV's. So if the OP of this thread would be registered here in my home state of PA, the unit would be perfectly legal as long as axle capacities or GCWR were not exceeded.

[JohnWedell]

Understood, but I mean if it’s legal it’s legal. I’m talking about if it’s over that’s where the problem is.If it is over however the state defines it then it is over. Even if you have airbags or Timbrins or whatever it will not make it legal.

[Midnightmoon]

I can agree with that.

[spoon059]

Originally Posted by JohnWedell

There’s always someone out there looking for affirmation to tow something heavier than they can legally.

Again... what makes it ILLEGAL? If you are at or under your registered weight (which has nothing to do with the sticker on your door) and at or under your combined tire weights, and at or under the federal bridge limits... what is ILLEGAL about it? Every state in the union allows you to register a vehicle for MORE than the door sticker. I registered my 2010 Tundra (7200 lbs GVWR sticker) for 10,000 lbs because Maryland only offered a 7000 lbs GVWR or a 10,000 lbs GVWR tag. If I only registered for 7000 lbs, I would "lose" 200 lbs of payload on a truck that already had pretty low ratings. I had E rated tires, so it was PERFECTLY LEGAL to drive down the road weighing 2800 lbs more than the Toyota sticker indicated.

People on the interwebs like to throw out the term "illegal" as if they understand what they are saying. There is absolutely nothing illegal about it. You could put E rated tires on a 4 cylinder Tacoma and register it for 12,000 lbs if you wanted. I doubt it would move 12,000 lbs (certainly not uphill), but it would be 100% legal and there is nothing that a police officer, the department of motor vehicles or the highway department could do to stop you. Now, that's not very safe or smart, but it would be legal...

Originally Posted by JohnWedell

There has to be a reason the manufacturers come out with these numbers.

There IS a reason... in order to make it a class 2B truck instead of a class 3. A class 2B truck can get you around some DOT or commercial regulations in some states. A class 2B truck can get you around HOA restrictions. A class 2B truck can get you around roadway restrictions in some states. A class 2B truck can save you registration fees in most states. They don't limit what the truck CAN do, they just artificially limit the GVWR in order to keep the truck in class 2B if the owner so desires.

If buying a new truck, get the 1 ton and save yourself the grief. If you have a 3/4 ton truck already, know that there is MINIMAL difference between the two and that LEGALLY you can do anything in a 3/4 ton truck that you can in a 1 ton single rear wheel truck.

[TxLoser]

My truck is actually registered with an 8500lb GVWR per my registration renewal here in Texas. Or close to that. Don’t recall the exact number. Not sure how that happened. Didn’t matter enough to argue it. Based on that, I’m way way over weight.

[TxLoser]

Wife just showed me this. What does this guy do? I bet he doesn’t have a yellow sticker. Really just my excuse to post a cool photo.

[bono]

Manufactures' towing ratings are only recommendations. They are not supported by any law. In almost all of the states there is no law restricting what cars/trucks can tow for recreational purposes. Any restrictions relate to commercial towing. PA's law is just one of the exception.

I am not suggesting people should tow over the specs (I see enough ignorance on the roads already), but I do not like spreading FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt).

[Big1]

Originally Posted by Midnightmoon

Not discounting your position, but the laws concerning GVWR are not often clearly understood, especially since they often vary from state to state. Here is PA's direct wording on the subject from the vehicle code.

§ 4942. Registered gross weight.

* * *

(c) Combination.--No combination containing a trailer having a gross weight or registered gross weight in excess of 10,000 pounds shall be operated with a gross weight in excess of the registered gross weight of the truck or truck tractor for a combination. This subsection shall not apply to a combination of vehicles consisting of a motor vehicle towing a recreational trailer or recreational cargo trailer, registered as such, as long as the combination weight does not exceed the sum of the manufacturer's rated axle capacities or the gross combination weight rating, whichever is less.

Here's the full document.

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs...sInd=0&act=138


As you can see, here in PA the only numbers that matter are the Axle capacities (Much like DOT regs by the way) and GCWR. Manufacturers GVWR does not apply. Only things to be considered are your registered gross weight for the combination if you are commercial and axle ratings and GCWR for RV's. So if the OP of this thread would be registered here in my home state of PA, the unit would be perfectly legal as long as axle capacities or GCWR were not exceeded.

That is how it is here in Washington State they register my 3/4 ton for 12,000 lbs it's good to know what is the law in your State.

[Big1]

Originally Posted by TxLoser

Wife just showed me this. What does this guy do? I bet he doesn’t have a yellow sticker. Really just my excuse to post a cool photo.

Attachment 51480

Is that for real, do he tow that?

[Big1]

Originally Posted by TxLoser

My truck is actually registered with an 8500lb GVWR per my registration renewal here in Texas. Or close to that. Don’t recall the exact number. Not sure how that happened. Didn’t matter enough to argue it. Based on that, I’m way way over weight.

The next time you renew I would ask all they can say is we are not doing it.

[Mad5581]

Originally Posted by spoon059

Again... what makes it ILLEGAL? If you are at or under your registered weight (which has nothing to do with the sticker on your door) and at or under your combined tire weights, and at or under the federal bridge limits... what is ILLEGAL about it? Every state in the union allows you to register a vehicle for MORE than the door sticker. I registered my 2010 Tundra (7200 lbs GVWR sticker) for 10,000 lbs because Maryland only offered a 7000 lbs GVWR or a 10,000 lbs GVWR tag. If I only registered for 7000 lbs, I would "lose" 200 lbs of payload on a truck that already had pretty low ratings. I had E rated tires, so it was PERFECTLY LEGAL to drive down the road weighing 2800 lbs more than the Toyota sticker indicated.

People on the interwebs like to throw out the term "illegal" as if they understand what they are saying. There is absolutely nothing illegal about it. You could put E rated tires on a 4 cylinder Tacoma and register it for 12,000 lbs if you wanted. I doubt it would move 12,000 lbs (certainly not uphill), but it would be 100% legal and there is nothing that a police officer, the department of motor vehicles or the highway department could do to stop you. Now, that's not very safe or smart, but it would be legal...


There IS a reason... in order to make it a class 2B truck instead of a class 3. A class 2B truck can get you around some DOT or commercial regulations in some states. A class 2B truck can get you around HOA restrictions. A class 2B truck can get you around roadway restrictions in some states. A class 2B truck can save you registration fees in most states. They don't limit what the truck CAN do, they just artificially limit the GVWR in order to keep the truck in class 2B if the owner so desires.

If buying a new truck, get the 1 ton and save yourself the grief. If you have a 3/4 ton truck already, know that there is MINIMAL difference between the two and that LEGALLY you can do anything in a 3/4 ton truck that you can in a 1 ton single rear wheel truck.

No disrespect but you are dead wrong. Call your insurance company. If you tell them you have a 3/4 ton and you intend to pull a 40 foot or bigger toy hauler that is 18k empty they will let you pay to cover it but will leave you hi and dry if anything big happens. I have seen this with multiple different insurance companies. And law or no law stop and think how sue happy people are nowadays. Heck if someone stupid and negligently was pulling 3 to 5k over the capacities of their truck and killed my wife or kids on the road I would own them at the end of the day. Not for personal gain but out of principal alone. The sticker on the truck is not a "suggestion" it is what the manufacturer says you are safe to handle with that truck. Can you pay the state more for them to post a higher number on your registration sure I've never seen a government that wasn't happy to take your money. This dose not change the fact your truck is "safe" to what the manufacturer says on the sticker. Can you exceed the stated limitations? Yes is it the best idea? No...

[DrSmart]

Originally Posted by Mad5581

No disrespect but you are dead wrong. Call your insurance company. If you tell them you have a 3/4 ton and you intend to pull a 40 foot or bigger toy hauler that is 18k empty they will let you pay to cover it but will leave you hi and dry if anything big happens. I have seen this with multiple different insurance companies. And law or no law stop and think how sue happy people are nowadays. Heck if someone stupid and negligently was pulling 3 to 5k over the capacities of their truck and killed my wife or kids on the road I would own them at the end of the day. Not for personal gain but out of principal alone. The sticker on the truck is not a "suggestion" it is what the manufacturer says you are safe to handle with that truck. Can you pay the state more for them to post a higher number on your registration sure I've never seen a government that wasn't happy to take your money. This dose not change the fact your truck is "safe" to what the manufacturer says on the sticker. Can you exceed the stated limitations? Yes is it the best idea? No...

Well said. IMO What is SAFE based on manufacturers engineered ratings has priority over registered weights. A truck may handle more than rated, but I don't like to gamble with safety.

[bono]

FUD again. Insurance company will pay even if you are towing above the RECOMMENDED towing capacity of the car. They are paying also for drunk accidents. However, they may not be willing to insure you going forward.

The sticker on the car is recommendation / suggestion. Your believe will not change it. Simply there is not legal industry towing standard to make the sticker anything more that a suggestion. Also, from simple logic, the manufacturer may not test all the towing setups, etc. Therefore, they suggest what in their opinion would work in all of the cases. Each trailer tows differently, each hitch provides different experience (just imagine the performance difference between a regular WDH and Hensley or ProPride).

Originally Posted by Mad5581

No disrespect but you are dead wrong. Call your insurance company. If you tell them you have a 3/4 ton and you intend to pull a 40 foot or bigger toy hauler that is 18k empty they will let you pay to cover it but will leave you hi and dry if anything big happens. I have seen this with multiple different insurance companies. And law or no law stop and think how sue happy people are nowadays. Heck if someone stupid and negligently was pulling 3 to 5k over the capacities of their truck and killed my wife or kids on the road I would own them at the end of the day. Not for personal gain but out of principal alone. The sticker on the truck is not a "suggestion" it is what the manufacturer says you are safe to handle with that truck. Can you pay the state more for them to post a higher number on your registration sure I've never seen a government that wasn't happy to take your money. This dose not change the fact your truck is "safe" to what the manufacturer says on the sticker. Can you exceed the stated limitations? Yes is it the best idea? No...

[Midnightmoon]

Originally Posted by Mad5581

No disrespect but you are dead wrong. Call your insurance company. If you tell them you have a 3/4 ton and you intend to pull a 40 foot or bigger toy hauler that is 18k empty they will let you pay to cover it but will leave you hi and dry if anything big happens. I have seen this with multiple different insurance companies..

Which insurance companies?

[Parcany]

My .02 cents. The sticker on the door is the bible. You can put anything down for weights on the regristration but that means nothing. The door sticker is what the police, adot and whoever else goes by. The people who make the truck knows what the truck can do and the sticker is what lets you know. See what happens when you go down the road overweight and either kill somebody or hurt them really bad. The police will make the tow driver pick up every bit of wreckage and put it on his truck and take it to a yard. Then they will weigh every bit of truck, trailer as if it would be going down the road. If you are over the GCVW of the truck then there is a good possibility your roommate is called Bubba. I had a towing company for years and this is what we had to do. It was a pain but the investagaters wanted to make sure things were done right. Maybe other states are different.

[SOMBATFAMILY]

just want to chime in. Good conversations.

https://youtu.be/IZ-v7d2ngbs

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by Mad5581

No disrespect but you are dead wrong. Call your insurance company. If you tell them you have a 3/4 ton and you intend to pull a 40 foot or bigger toy hauler that is 18k empty they will let you pay to cover it but will leave you hi and dry if anything big happens. I have seen this with multiple different insurance companies.

I have a cousin who retired from the insurance industry and he says "JUST THE OPPOSITE" they will cover the claim. Any accident you have is because you did something wrong whether speeding, following too close, overloaded, on the phone, running a red light etc etc.

All liability coverage for any trailer is on the tow vehicle, you only put collision, fire, theft and comprehensive on your trailer.

They may cancel you after they pay, but they will pay.

[spoon059]

Originally Posted by Mad5581

If you tell them you have a 3/4 ton and you intend to pull a 40 foot or bigger toy hauler that is 18k empty they will let you pay to cover it but will leave you hi and dry if anything big happens.

Do you have anything to back up your claim? Why would I even tell them that I am towing an 18K trailer? They have never once asked me what trailer I am pulling. As I have said, and others after me... they cover drunk drivers all the time. You are throwing internet hyperbole at me, and you are wrong.

When it comes to a civil claim, you are STILL wrong. Simply being overweight is not, in and of itself, negligence and culpability. You would have to be shown, beyond a preponderance of evidence, that being overweight of a sticker was negligent on your part. I would present as part of my defense that Ram rated my rear axle for 6500 lbs (18" rims) and my front axle for 5500 lbs (18" rims), therefore the manufacturer has tested and approved the vehicle for 13,000 lbs GVWR. The sticker on the door that reads 1.5 tons less is a marketing tool to arbitrarily keep the vehicle in the class 2B rating. You would have to overcome the testing of the manufacturer to even began to suggest that I was negligent.

The fact that the state granted me a registration to haul 13,000 lbs, even though the sticker says 10,000 lbs, goes further to show a civil jury that the sticker is not the "end all, be all" for the vehicle. If it was so negligent for me to weight 13,000 lbs, why did the DMV allow me to register for those weights?

As I've said before, it would be far easier to argue that something other than the extra 3000 lbs caused the wreck and was contributory negligence... maybe my brake pads were at minimum spec, maybe I was speeding, maybe my tires pressure was too high/low, maybe my tire tread was faulty, maybe I was distracted by GPS or a passenger in the vehicle, maybe I was too tired to drive, etc. All of those are easier to argue negligence, and harder for me to disprove.

Come at me that I was over a random yellow tire loading index sticker? You are just wasting your time and your attorney's time and I'm likely to get an award to cover my attorney fees.

[spoon059]

Originally Posted by Parcany

The door sticker is what the police, adot and whoever else goes by.

See what happens when you go down the road overweight and either kill somebody or hurt them really bad. The police will make the tow driver pick up every bit of wreckage and put it on his truck and take it to a yard. Then they will weigh every bit of truck, trailer as if it would be going down the road. If you are over the GCVW of the truck then there is a good possibility your roommate is called Bubba.

The door sticker is nothing. The registered weight, tire rating and federal bridge limits are all that is enforceable. This is coming from 17 years of law enforcement. Look at your registration card, that lists the REGISTERED WEIGHT, not the weight written on a yellow sticker. You are simply wrong.

Going to jail for a vehicle collision? In what state? You'd have to be charged with vehicular manslaughter, which has an extremely high bar to cross. DUI wrecks that kill someone rarely have vehicular manslaughter attached, because the elements require an extremely high level of criminal negligence to charge the crime.

You guys are laughable... Isn't it camping season, shouldn't you guys be telling your tall tales over a beer at the campfire?