Well some salesman know very little about the products on thier lots, how can they know anything about our trucks...
I agree completely, which is why if they don't know anything about the customer's TV, they shouldn't be telling the customer what TT the customer's TV can tow.
Not sure, who you are referring to exactly, but Andy Thomson is often mentioned over AS forum. AFAIK, this is the one of the most knowledgeable people in America in relation to towing. His company is almost 50 years in business. Modified thousands of cars. He is advisor to SAE, car manufacturers and AirStream.
I know that many people are not capable of understanding this, but manufacturer recommendations are just good starting point to set up a good TV/TT combo. TV manufacturers cannot predict what the owners will be towing. The specs need to accommodate many variables.
Recently, he set up Camaro to tow 25 ft AirStream. Again, there was a lot of heat over AS forum from a few folks around why Camaro should not tow this trailer.
There is not much love for Andy from some, when he is saying that out of 9 towing combinations he drove last week new F250 & 30’ Classic was by far the least stable and likely the least safe (due to the suspension that was softened and the height was raised). The other combinations:
I wasn't specifically referring to Andy Thompson though I am familiar with his work. There are several people doing that type of work in the US and Canada as I'm sure you are aware.
My concern in the case of a business doing this type of work openly (I'm not questioning the knowledge or experience of the business owner) is the liability aspect associated with the modification of an existing product or use of a product outside of a manufacturers specifications.
I run a small corporation of approximately 65 full and part time employees. One of the biggest issues that I deal with is the paperwork trail and documentation of employee training/certification, equipment maintenance and safety, and customer training and support. If an accident, even a minor one occurs, the first thing that our attorneys/insurance company looks for is exactly what happened, when it happened, was there proper certification, training, safety procedures, was the equipment being used as designed etc.
I can't imagine what the liability would be if God forbid, an accident would occur while operating a vehicle or combination modified by one of these companies. This differs greatly from if an owner does modifications on their own. Though still potentially liable, the owner can at least attempt to claim ignorance of the results of those modifications. If those modifications are done by a company, their burden of liability is much greater since they are actively marketing/selling a product that has been altered from its original design. I can only imagine what their liability insurance must cost them, if in fact their carrier knows exactly what is happening at that business.
Again, not in any way questioning the experience or knowledge of these individuals. I just have never been able to understand how they can openly run a business with such potential risk.
At the end of the day, when someone gets behind the wheel of TV pulling an 4 or 5 ton RV down the highway, it's THEIR responsibility to be sure that they are operating this potentially lethal weapon in a safe responsible manner. Manufacturers publish all the numbers and in today's day and age, the info is easily obtained. We need to stop pushing the responsibility off the owner/operator. People need to think for themselves and take responsibility.
At the end of the day, when someone gets behind the wheel of TV pulling an 4 or 5 ton RV down the highway, it's THEIR responsibility to be sure that they are operating this potentially lethal weapon in a safe responsible manner. Manufacturers publish all the numbers and in today's day and age, the info is easily obtained. We need to stop pushing the responsibility off the owner/operator. People need to think for themselves and take responsibility.
I agree completely , Which is why the dealer should not be telling and or lying to the customer what their tow vehicle can Tow.
Not being a lawyer, I see the risk only in the situation when the modification was the cause of the accident. Similar to manufacturers of the cars, Can Am or other guys who modify towing equipment cannot control what people are towing. It is the operator of the vehicle, who is responsible.
I have never heard about any accident resulting from the modification and I spend long hours looking for such information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightmoon
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Again, not in any way questioning the experience or knowledge of these individuals. I just have never been able to understand how they can openly run a business with such potential risk.
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We purchased our RV from RV Express in Middlebury, Indiana.. part of the process BEFORE they ordered the RV was to ask what vehicle we were towing with, and they checked to make sure it was capible of safely hauling the vehicle. They can NOT be responsible for how much cargo you put in the RV OR in your tow vehicle.
If a law suit was pursed it would only add one additional very fine line to your contract...it may already be there. "customer to be responsibile that an adequte tow vehicle is used to tow this RV".
In the end it's ALWAYS buyer beware.. Before purchasing our Tundra I went to Ford...gave them all my requirements as to Tow capacity, cargo capacity etc... he gave me a copy of the truck he ASSURED me was the one I wanted. Since they carry no brochures anymore when I got home I looked up online and found the two capacity and cargo capacity was NOT what he had written on the copy of the Truck invoice... I called him back and when I said you lied...he got indignant until I pointed out the numbers...than got very quiet and I said thanks, but I can't trust you and hung up.
In the end it's ALWAYS Buyer beware....
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2011 Toyota Tundra double cab
2015 27RLS
If folks used a little common sense and some basic elementary school math, they would be able to take a few numbers and see if their proposed TT was within BASIC specs of their TV.
1st. Does the GVW of the TT fall below the specified Tow Capacity of the TV?
2nd. Does calculated TW(tongue weight) fall within the Payload of the TV including occupants and cargo? (I use TT GVW x 15% to get max TW)
these 2 calculations should get you the required answers for safe towing.
Can you tow 15000lbs with a half ton? maybe....
Should you? probably not as you will be WAY over TW AND Payload.
Assume nothing when it comes to TT or TV dealers. do your research.
it seems more a case of buyer beware.
My TT dealer asked me what i was going to tow my 28BHBE with and i told him a 92 Ford Ranger. he told me he would not let me off the lot with it.
I tow with the Silverado in my sig.
Also, What you pick up your chosen TT with does not necessarily mean that is what you tow with and the dealer know this too so it isnt always their fault.
Happy Camping
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Powerstop Brakes on all corners.
'15 JayFlight 28BHBE Elite Fibreglass
Andersen Hitch.
'07 Northern Lite 10-2RR Camper.
SuperSprings.
There is absolutely no need for any further regulation in this country. If You buy it, you’re responsible for it, period. No reason to blame or sue anyone else.
If a buyer doesn't understand TT/TV ratings what do they do when they switch TV's? Go to the RV dealer? Ask the TV dealer?
As far as the dealer lying about things... well I just do my own research whatever it is I'm buying. I'm sure the kid selling the television will be lying too (or at the least misinformed)
Interesting. I did exactly that. Not go to the RV dealer, but I asked the TV dealer. Guess what, they actually assisted me with the calculations to ensure that I was within my limits for the vehicle I was considering. The CAT scale proved that we were a bit closer than originally anticipated, but that was probably because I underestimated my cargo.
The point is, my reputable car dealership did the right thing. They sell a mix of cars and trucks, so probably don't do this every day. OTOH, an average RV dealer gets this question EVERY FREAKING DAY, and doesn't do the right thing. They should have the skills and knowledge to do it correctly as it is their bread and butter. Expecting an average consumer to do this properly is a bit much; we might face the situation 3-5 times in our entire RVing experience, and I expect only maybe 10% of the buyers even understand that the calculation is required.
ETA: another example. I bought a new furnace. I did not have to do the heat load calculations to determine the correct BTU output for my house. All 3 of the companies that quoted me automatically did this calculation for me, and all 3 quoted similar output furnaces that were the correct size for my house. Although I am an engineer, and can do this if I have to, I never felt it was necessary, the professionals are better equipped to do it than I am.
Not being a lawyer, I see the risk only in the situation when the modification was the cause of the accident. Similar to manufacturers of the cars, Can Am or other guys who modify towing equipment cannot control what people are towing. It is the operator of the vehicle, who is responsible.
I have never heard about any accident resulting from the modification and I spend long hours looking for such information.
Unfortunately, in my experience, attorneys tend to think differently than we would in any given situation. Especially, when liability and risk management is concerned.
We have a dedicated Risk Management team in place that covers this type of topic on a daily basis. Ours consists of 2 attorneys as well as our senior management team. This is in addition to the attorney provided by our insurance company. They like to throw the phrase "Risk Assumption" around all the time. Basically meaning, what is the calculated risk based upon any given policy change or product review, who assumes that risk, and does that risk calculation balance with the projected profit or growth from that action. It becomes even more complex when you start to factor ISO ratings, etc. I speak with other company presidents/CEO's on a regular basis and we are all doing this at this point. It is completely liability/insurance driven, but it is a fact of business practice in 2017.
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2018 F150 4x4 3.5L Ecoboost Max Tow
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Have no practical experience with this, so I will not go deeper into this discussion. The fact is that Can Am modified thousands of cars and they are still in the business. The cars are being modified for many years. Not that many years ago, hitches were being manufactured by local fabricators.
I am from Europe. One of the observations about the US is the fact that there are many rules, regulations and the lawyers have a good life.
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Easy though for the sale a dealer is required to write down the GVRW of the TV (off the door jam tag picture of it even) and that of the trailer. Then show the math it works loaded to the max and it fits inside the TV GVRW tag. Then it is a binding contract...
Here in FL the only reason that they are required to put the GVRW of the TV on the bill of sale is for the county tax collector to fit the TV into a category for TAX/License purposes. That is the only reason down here.
There is not much love for Andy from some, when he is saying that out of 9 towing combinations he drove last week new F250 & 30’ Classic was by far the least stable and likely the least safe (due to the suspension that was softened and the height was raised).
This statement is very disconcerting to me as I just bought a new '17 F-250 and will be towing our '12 36ft Eagle with it come spring. On the other hand, I agree with some of the above posters as in you bought it, you're responsible for it.
I have worked in A GM Dealership for over 35years ..... cannot count how many times a salesman has brought a customer to me and asked me for tow ratings on a certain vehicle. #1, not all sales people are alike ...... doesn't matter if you are selling the trailer, or the tow vehicle. We should not paint them all the same color. It should be up to the buyer to know what his vehicle is capable of, not your RV salesman. He has no idea what your axle ratio is, as they all very, if you have certain tow packages etc. Do your homework ...... and it all starts with your car salesman .....they know more regarding your vehicle.
As for RV Salesman, one of the biggest problems in the industry today is, more and more of these people have never stepped a foot in a campground. Case n Point, friends of ours who we see quite oftem camping just bought a new Jayflight 29RKS. Beautiful trailer, big side window, lots of cupboards/counter etc., but, the one thing they do is they have lots of family that show up on weekends, and the wife cooks alot ..... ya, they love to eat. Now, a good salesman would have directed them to a close layout, but with the outside kitchen ( they ordered it, it wasn't on the lot). They don't ask the right questions, because they don't know!
I have worked in A GM Dealership for over 35years ..... cannot count how many times a salesman has brought a customer to me and asked me for tow ratings on a certain vehicle. #1, not all sales people are alike ...... doesn't matter if you are selling the trailer, or the tow vehicle. We should not paint them all the same color. It should be up to the buyer to know what his vehicle is capable of, not your RV salesman. He has no idea what your axle ratio is, as they all very, if you have certain tow packages etc. Do your homework ...... and it all starts with your car salesman .....they know more regarding your vehicle.
As for RV Salesman, one of the biggest problems in the industry today is, more and more of these people have never stepped a foot in a campground. Case n Point, friends of ours who we see quite oftem camping just bought a new Jayflight 29RKS. Beautiful trailer, big side window, lots of cupboards/counter etc., but, the one thing they do is they have lots of family that show up on weekends, and the wife cooks alot ..... ya, they love to eat. Now, a good salesman would have directed them to a close layout, but with the outside kitchen ( they ordered it, it wasn't on the lot). They don't ask the right questions, because they don't know!
Exactly, there are so many variables with the vehicle regarding weight ratings, what year, what engine, what rear ratio, which tires, regular cab, extended or crew, tow package or not, what the hitch is rated for, what is the GVWR, the combined GVWR , the receiver rating, the rear axle rating, the payload. We must use our own due diligence....
Where I live this would be a breach of the implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, fraud, negligent misrepresentation, and several other possible civil actions.
You can say buyer should research, but a buyer has the right to rely on the expertise and representations of the seller/dealer.
You should NEVER trust the opinion of someone who stands to make money off you. A salesman's only goal is to make a sale and make money. Caveat Emptor is usually the law of the land, which means BUYER BEWARE, placing the burden of knowledge on the buyer.
In the day of the internet, it is pretty simple to do minimal research and learn simple things like GVWR, GCWR, GAWR, payload, tire ratings, etc. If anything, the influx of readily available information places even more burden on the buyer to do simple research before buying.
What I want to know is how many TT accidents have been attributed to not enough truck vs owner over loading trailer, driver fail to pay full time and attention, mechanical malfunction or inexperienced driver.
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Even if it is a combination of too much trailer and other elements (speed, fail to pay full time and attention, mechanical, etc), it is usually the other element that is the major contributing factor. The fact of the matter is that manufacturers put artificially low ratings on trucks to absolve them of liability. That Ford F150 axle that is rated at 4800 lbs isn't going to magically self destruct at 4850 lbs... it would have to be seriously overloaded for some time before any catastrophic failure would occur. It will be difficult to handle, it will get pushed all over the road, it won't stop as well, it will struggle to move up a hill... but it would take those factors combined with driver input error to cause a wreck. That driver input error would have a worse effect than the simple overloading...
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