Lawsuit for Dealer Selling too heavy TT for TV

[Aquapoolman]

My concern is looking at the chart for a FORD 2017 pickup. If you can make heads or tails out of that gibberish of which one of those vehicles can carry what weight I will give you a prize! LOL
I purchased a f-250 SWD 4wheel drive Crew cab.... simple follow the chart. BUT, I bought a tow package. That is not one there. Then I also purchased the mount puck system and the heavy duty deluxe package which adds another leaf spring. That is not on there either. Very frustrating for a first time buyer.

[Tunce the traveler]

Originally Posted by schrederman

There were 2 of them in the car, in uniform. The one in the right seat was looking over the placards on my trailer and then they waved and took off... I wasn't really worried, but they had me wondering what they were looking for.

Talked to one on the beach in California and he said " while we're driving we like to get a visual on your tires and make sure your safety chains are crossed and of course riding level.

[spoon059]

Originally Posted by schrederman

On my last tow... and I'm totally legal... I had a Texas DPS guy beside me on the right for about 1/4 mile. Then he went behind for a few seconds, and then pulled up beside me on the left. There were 2 of them in the car, in uniform. The one in the right seat was looking over the placards on my trailer and then they waved and took off... I wasn't really worried, but they had me wondering what they were looking for.

So, kinda funny story. I got promoted and am unfortunately back out on the road again. I was riding around with one of my guys on the highway a couple weeks back and saw a really nice camper going up the road. The camper had some stickers on the back, names of campgrounds they had visited. A lot of the stickers were places that I had been, so I had my guy pull up closer to read them all... maybe see if he found a place I hadn't heard of.

I sure hope I didn't make him worry, I was just looking for tips for a future trip!

[Lady Fitzgerald]

First, the only way one could make a lawsuit like this stick is if the buyer has a written statement from the dealer that their tow vehicle could safely tow the trailer. I seriously doubt there would be many dealers stupid enough to put the recommendation in writing unless it was accurate.


Second, I completely disagree with the prevailing attitude here that the buyer has to take full responsibility for knowing that their tow vehicle can handle the trailer they want to buy. That would be like saying a bartender s/he is not responsible for a vehicular accident or fatalities because s/he failed to cut off a customer who was becoming intoxicated. When I briefly worked for a convenience store to supplement my pension until SSI kicked in, I was held to the same standards as bartenders when selling alcohol. If I sold to an intoxicated customer and got caught, I would automatically get fired and would have faced up to a felony conviction, a $10k fine, and a year in jail. If an accident occurred after the sale, I could have been facing criminal charges for property damages, injuries, and even homicide plus be liable under civil law.


Telling a buyer that their vehicle can tow something when it cannot is either fraud (if deliberate) or gross negligence (if due to dealer ignorance. Period. If it were almost any other product, it would be expected to live up to the claims made for it. People have a right to receive what they are told they are going to receive and most jurisdictions uphold that right. Sadly, in this case, most of the time, there is no way for the buyer to prove that the erroneous claim was made.


A prevailing attitude in RV forums is the acceptance that RV manufacturers are putting out shoddy products and even making excuses for it. People accept that manufacturers will not enforce warranties being honored at all of their dealers instead of often only at the dealer that sold the RV (which is stupid considering RVs are more likely to break down away from home). People accept that it can often take months to get their RVs repaired. They accept that RVs often have issues while at the time of purchase.


I had originally planned on buying a travel trailer and full timing in it but have decided against it for the reasons I've mentioned above. I'm too old and handicapped to be working on things all the time and too ornery to put up with shoddy quality, excessive wait times for repairs (which are often poor quality), etc. I would happily pay far more for better quality but it simply isn't there.


All my life, I have had the attitude that if a product would not fully satisfy me, I would negotiate a lower price to offset the cost of upgrading the product to satisfy me, make it myself, or do without. The RV industry is so messed up right now, only the last option is available to me. In all fairness, Jayco is better than most but is still unacceptable to this demanding old lady.


People gripe about being overregulated (and, frankly, I share that complaint) but, sadly, as long as people try to take advantage of other people, there will be a need for regulation. Unfortunately, many government jurisdiction use regulations solely as an income source.

[bono]

When I was buying my trailer, I signed a purchase contract with the dealer, not a contract for advisory. I assume >99% of the RV purchase contracts are the same.

If so, why would dealer be responsible for matching my tow vehicle with a trailer? I just cannot understand why people have such expectations and rely on dealers to confirm or not whether their tow vehicles are sufficient for their needs. Actually, I had a serious discussion with my dealer who was suggesting that my vehicle was not adequate to tow the trailer. That made my upset, as I do not need babysitting and I have my brain which I used for a couple of hundreds of hours spent on researching the "science of towing".

I am one of those who claim that the buyer has full responsibility for knowing what he can tow. But I do not think that this is the prevailing attitude, not at all.

Originally Posted by Lady Fitzgerald

First, the only way one could make a lawsuit like this stick is if the buyer has a written statement from the dealer that their tow vehicle could safely tow the trailer. I seriously doubt there would be many dealers stupid enough to put the recommendation in writing unless it was accurate.


Second, I completely disagree with the prevailing attitude here that the buyer has to take full responsibility for knowing that their tow vehicle can handle the trailer they want to buy. (...)

[Atlee]

So you are saying the entire onus is on the buyer to make sure he has the right equipment to tow what ever trailer he chooses, right?

That probably makes some sense to you and me, who have experience in buying, selling and use of trailers before. And if dealers only sold to
"experienced" RV'ers, you might have a point.

However you and I both know RV dealers want to sell to anyone, including neophytes and maybe especially to neophytes since they probably can be sold anything. Why should neophytes be expected to know the ins and outs of trailering if they are new to it?

Why shouldn't a neophyte figure an RV dealer and his/her representatives are knowledgeable about trailers and tow vehicles? Why shouldn't they be able to rely on advice from said dealer?

Originally Posted by bono

When I was buying my trailer, I signed a purchase contract with the dealer, not a contract for advisory. I assume >99% of the RV purchase contracts are the same.

If so, why would dealer be responsible for matching my tow vehicle with a trailer? I just cannot understand why people have such expectations and rely on dealers to confirm or not whether their tow vehicles are sufficient for their needs. Actually, I had a serious discussion with my dealer who was suggesting that my vehicle was not adequate to tow the trailer. That made my upset, as I do not need babysitting and I have my brain which I used for a couple of hundreds of hours spent on researching the "science of towing".

I am one of those who claim that the buyer has full responsibility for knowing what he can tow. But I do not think that this is the prevailing attitude, not at all.

[Demiles]

The problem is many don’t take towing seriously, and don’t take the time to educate themselves before hand. Not trying to start an argument but when driving down the road with a trailer it the drivers responsibility that it is done safely. That means even if you don’t own the trailer or truck but you’re behind the wheel it’s your responsibility. Knowing the vehicle limitations is the sole responsibility of the driver behind the wheel no one else’s. By all means check your state and local laws for details. Could you bring a civil suit against a dealer? Maybe .

[bono]

If buyers are aware that this is his responsibility to make sure that he has a proper tow vehicle for certain trailer, dealers could be trying to sell Falcon Heavy for cheap to them and the offers would declined. Dealers are not in the advisory business, they do not have the knowledge, etc. The sooner the buyers realize this, the better for all of us. I am aware of only one dealer in America with many years experience that you could rely on - Can Am in Canada.

Another thing - towing a larger trailer is not a piece of cake, regardless of tow vehicle. In most of European countries you need to get additional certification for this. I am still in shock that I can pass this easy driving test in the US and tow 33 ft trailer.

Originally Posted by Atlee

So you are saying the entire onus is on the buyer to make sure he has the right equipment to tow what ever trailer he chooses, right?

That probably makes some sense to you and me, who have experience in buying, selling and use of trailers before. And if dealers only sold to
"experienced" RV'ers, you might have a point.

However you and I both know RV dealers want to sell to anyone, including neophytes and maybe especially to neophytes since they probably can be sold anything. Why should neophytes be expected to know the ins and outs of trailering if they are new to it?

Why shouldn't a neophyte figure an RV dealer and his/her representatives are knowledgeable about trailers and tow vehicles? Why shouldn't they be able to rely on advice from said dealer?

[eagleback]

Its up to the owner to make sure of there capacity and not the dealer. They need to look and then research if its too heavy then move to the smaller one. People need to take responsibility for there own actions. 90% of rv sales are for just camping and you don't have to buy it. I'm in the other 10% as my DW and i live full time and i have and did my research. Our dealership has you sign a waver. The only way i see the buyers direction is if the manufacture mislabels there weight on the tag and if the dealer adds any options they need to take the unit and have it weighed and add an addendum to the cert.

[markscns]

I contacted the Ford dealer when I picking up a new RV, truck is also new, asked them if they could help verify if i could safely tow it last year when making the decision. They assured me that I could and would have a lot of room left. I agree, the diagram on Fords site is a mess. You have total GVWR, and what the trailer weight can be.

We already know that when we upgrade to a larger trailer in the next ten years we will also have to upgrade to a F250. We want to eventually move into at least a 30 foot TT with slide outs.

[CampNow]

I think it's going to take some kind of watershed moment to change the prevailing attitude found at many RV dealerships. Sadly, it'll probably take a highly visible legal case (involving a tragic accident with a huge payout) that makes the national, evening news. Based on the sales approach we've experienced at most RV dealerships, we certainly get the impression they have very little concern about liability.

IMO, it is very rare to find sales-people, at any kind of dealership (car, truck, RV, etc.), that fully understand all the various ratings (GVWR, GCWR, Payload Rating, Tongue/Pin Weight, RAWR, FAWR, etc.) and how they're used to safely and properly match a trailer to a tow vehicle.

I believe much of the bad advice given at many dealerships is based on ignorance vs. being purposely misleading.

Bottom line, you're mostly on your own out there! One can only assume there's just not enough liability risk to warrant a change . . . yet.

[SkyBound]

I go into any purchase involving a salesperson knowing as much as I possibly can about the product, but don't disclose my knowledge. I push a multitude of questions; firstly to test their knowledge and secondly to test their patience. A money-hungry dummy salesperson will quickly become annoyed with the questions and even comment on it with some stupid joke about asking too many questions.

I am uncertain about the law aspect, but I do believe each consumer has a partial responsibility to educate themselves in whichever department they are investing into. If you go in blind and rely solely on a stranger's advice, maybe it's not that surprising things ended up improper? Everyone oughta know by now that it's rare to find someone good, trustworthy, knowledgeable and competent in their jobs or duties.

[Wireman]

Originally Posted by SkyBound

I go into any purchase involving a salesperson knowing as much as I possibly can about the product, but don't disclose my knowledge. I push a multitude of questions; firstly to test their knowledge and secondly to test their patience. A money-hungry dummy salesperson will quickly become annoyed with the questions and even comment on it with some stupid joke about asking too many questions.

I am uncertain about the law aspect, but I do believe each consumer has a partial responsibility to educate themselves in whichever department they are investing into. If you go in blind and rely solely on a stranger's advice, maybe it's not that surprising things ended up improper? Everyone oughta know by now that it's rare to find someone good, trustworthy, knowledgeable and competent in their jobs or duties.

Good advice. Know what your tow vehicle is capable of, do as much research as possible on any trailer you are considering.

It's easy to get influenced visually with a unit that probably doesn't meet your specs.

Knowledge is king.

[CampNow]

Originally Posted by SkyBound

I go into any purchase involving a salesperson knowing as much as I possibly can about the product, but don't disclose my knowledge. I push a multitude of questions; firstly to test their knowledge and secondly to test their patience. A money-hungry dummy salesperson will quickly become annoyed with the questions and even comment on it with some stupid joke about asking too many questions.

I am uncertain about the law aspect, but I do believe each consumer has a partial responsibility to educate themselves in whichever department they are investing into. If you go in blind and rely solely on a stranger's advice, maybe it's not that surprising things ended up improper? Everyone oughta know by now that it's rare to find someone good, trustworthy, knowledgeable and competent in their jobs or duties.

I agree to a point. Arming yourself with knowledge before making a major purchase is, for most folks, a given. However, with RV's there are so many technical issues to entertain. We seasoned RV'rs sometimes take for granted the wealth of information we've gleaned (sometimes the hard way) over the years. For the first time buyer it's extremely overwhelming. When I think back to our first RV purchase, pure luck and a reputable dealer was the only thing that separated us from a nightmare.

The fact is, RV sales are booming. I'd venture to guess there is an extremely high percentage of first-time buyers. In a nutshell, my previous post was addressing how vulnerable these folks are. My heart goes out to first-time buyers who are sold RV's that don't meet their needs. It's a huge purchase, and for some folks, it takes years to recover and learn from the misdeeds of a less than reputable RV dealer. Sure, I can stand back and critique them for not doing their "homework", but honestly, I've had friends and family in the same boat. It's very disheartening to see folks taken advantage of.

Case in point. A few months ago an older gentleman and his wife were backing into an RV space next to ours with their 5th wheel. While he was backing in we heard the sound of twisting metal. I turned my head and immediately noticed the problem. There was maybe 2-3 inches of clearance between his truck bed and his 5th wheel. It was a brand new dually and 5th wheel. Needless to say, both had suffered significant damage. The RV dealer where he purchased the 5th wheel had installed the hitch and assured him it was ready for his cross-country trip. After a few minutes of conversation it quickly became apparent the service and sales department at this RV dealership had sold this poor gentleman one heckuva bill of goods. He had been told numerous things that were simply not true. Not the first time I'd heard this story, and I'm sure it won't be the last. In any case, we did get his hitch properly adjusted. Glad he had one less thing to worry about while he and his wife enjoyed time together with their grandkids.

[curver900]

Originally Posted by CampNow

I think it's going to take some kind of watershed moment to change the prevailing attitude found at many RV dealerships. Sadly, it'll probably take a highly visible legal case (involving a tragic accident with a huge payout) that makes the national, evening news. Based on the sales approach we've experienced at most RV dealerships, we certainly get the impression they have very little concern about liability.

.

Hopefully some old lady won't spill her hot coffee from McDonald's on herself...oh wait that did happen... and she won... reduced later but she still fricken won...

[Wireman]

Originally Posted by CampNow

I agree to a point. Arming yourself with knowledge before making a major purchase is, for most folks, a given. However, with RV's there are so many technical issues to entertain. We seasoned RV'rs sometimes take for granted the wealth of information we've gleaned (sometimes the hard way) over the years. For the first time buyer it's extremely overwhelming. When I think back to our first RV purchase, pure luck and a reputable dealer was the only thing that separated us from a nightmare.

The fact is, RV sales are booming. I'd venture to guess there is an extremely high percentage of first-time buyers. In a nutshell, my previous post was addressing how vulnerable these folks are. My heart goes out to first-time buyers who are sold RV's that don't meet their needs. It's a huge purchase, and for some folks, it takes years to recover and learn from the misdeeds of a less than reputable RV dealer. Sure, I can stand back and critique them for not doing their "homework", but honestly, I've had friends and family in the same boat. It's very disheartening to see folks taken advantage of.

Case in point. A few months ago an older gentleman and his wife were backing into an RV space next to ours with their 5th wheel. While he was backing in we heard the sound of twisting metal. I turned my head and immediately noticed the problem. There was maybe 2-3 inches of clearance between his truck bed and his 5th wheel. It was a brand new dually and 5th wheel. Needless to say, both had suffered significant damage. The RV dealer where he purchased the 5th wheel had installed the hitch and assured him it was ready for his cross-country trip. After a few minutes of conversation it quickly became apparent the service and sales department at this RV dealership had sold this poor gentleman one heckuva bill of goods. He had been told numerous things that were simply not true. Not the first time I'd heard this story, and I'm sure it won't be the last. In any case, we did get his hitch properly adjusted. Glad he had one less thing to worry about while he and his wife enjoyed time together with their grandkids.

True, there are a lot of newbies buying RV's. We were all there once.

But the more info you can get from the internet dealer and builder websites, from these forum's, and just asking questions from KNOWLEDGEABLE people the better off you will be.

With booming sales I'm sure there are a lot of newbie salesman who may say anything to add to the paycheck.

[SkyBound]

The homework required isn't just a financial protection issue, it's a safety protection issue. I would never entirely trust my safety to a stranger, let alone my wallet. Advice and opinion is fine, but that info needs to be crosschecked and investigated to determine its validity.

I do agree with CampNow that some folks get taken advantage of, and for that I do sympathize as well. It bothers me to see situations like that, and maybe that's why I have become so diligent with my own research.

[goducks]

1/3 of new sales are 1st time buyers according to the ex CEO of Grand Design.

[JimG010462]

I think the problem is professional capacity. Many years ago companies took pride in being a professional. A professional wouldn’t have let you tow a vehicle that was too big for their truck. They would try to educate you on the proper vehicle for your truck. They educate you on what all of the different stats about your truck and trailer meant. But nowadays, dealers only have one standard. To sell a vehicle. To make a profit. I always love when the OTR drivers come in and spew their nonsense. So if it’s the operators responsibility, then why do you have to get certified to drive an OTR? By that measure, anyone should be able to drive an OTR without an OTR license. If it’s the operators responsibility, then no certifications are required. So how would they feel about sharing the road with uncertified drivers? Would their opinion change?

[harryjr]

It's always the driver's responsibility. But, I wouldn't trust the sales rep for good information because half the time they just don't know.

I was on the phone with a Ford dealer asking about 2 different Explorers. From the on-line pictures it looked like one had a Class II receiver and the other a Class III. When I asked him to verify it, he told me it didn't matter. If the one I wanted had a Class II, I could just take it down to U-Haul and have them put on a Class III. I think he was absolutely serious.