Lawsuit for Dealer Selling too heavy TT for TV

[stevegreen]

Anyone hear of any lawsuits against dealers (not manufacturers) for selling Travel Trailers that are too heave for peoples TV?

First, I don't have this problem (thankfully) b/c I was insistent with dealer that I did not want to over-work my TV to the max. Dealer kept telling wife and my inlaws that were with me that my TV could pull another couple thousand pounds (trying to upsell to larger TT).

I did not know much about TT and this was first purchase - and I definitely did not understand tongue weight, GVWR, payload, axle rates, etc...

I just knew what was on the hitch for tongue weight and pulling.

In this scenario IF I had followed the advice of the dealer sales rep I definitely would have purchased a TT that was too big (my current one is just under the max on some of the ratings - thankfully). This still ticks me off.

Where I live this would be a breach of the implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, fraud, negligent misrepresentation, and several other possible civil actions.

You can say buyer should research, but a buyer has the right to rely on the expertise and representations of the seller/dealer.

Anyways - has someone heard of any lawsuits - I would be interested in reading the article and sending to my legislature to encourage some regulation in this area.

[Midnightmoon]

I have not heard of a lawsuit specifically against a dealer for this practice. But, I can tell you that it happens all of the time. In all of my years of owning rv trailers and owning diesel trucks, I've heard the "your truck can pull anything I've got on the lot" line dozens of times.

There are even dealers that will "modify" vehicles to tow a larger trailer than what the manufacturers recommendations would be in order to make a sale. I'm not going to get in to the specifics of that one, but when I owned an Airstream and would participate in their forum, I would read of it all the time. Again, I don't know of any specific lawsuit or case regarding that situation, just noting that it goes on in this industry.

Unfortunately, many people who rush in to impulse buys or don't do their research before hand fall trap to these games.

[jamaddox]

That would be interesting but I wonder if there are too many variables for the dealer to know everything? Our current trailer was about 400 lbs over my previous trucks GVWR. I could have left my fishing equipment at home and had my family take a different vehicle and I probably would have met the weight limit. The question still would be interesting to have answered


John Maddox
2017 Ford F-250
Jayco WhiteHawk 27DSRL

[jamaddox]

Let me add that my dealer did not try to get me to upsize another 1000-2000 lbs


John Maddox
2017 Ford F-250
Jayco WhiteHawk 27DSRL

[Siamese]

"You can say buyer should research, but a buyer has the right to rely on the expertise and representations of the seller/dealer."

I don't the buyer has that "right" or even should have that expectation. I agree that a total novice, who for some reason hasn't done their homework (so easy since the internet), might mistakenly rely on a dealer for this. I know I did 17 years ago on my first trailer purchase.

The reality is, I think for the most part, the buyer makes a huge assumption about the dealer's knowledge in matching TT & TV. If it's a service they offer as part of the deal, they sure don't mention it in their brochures or websites.

A buyer has a right to do their own homework when matching trailer to tow vehicle. It's been my own experience, and profoundly so, that dealers lie a LOT. Not just about tow vehicles, but about the trailers they sell, and the bogus miracle spray protectant/warranty products they sell, etc.. If someone tells me they had a good experience with an honest dealer I figure (A) they got fooled, or (B) they found a unicorn.

My dealer told some whoppers when we bought a new 26BH this year. I asked whether the WFCO charger converter was a truly "smart" charger. It was clear to me that the guy who did the buyer orientation with me had no idea what a smart charger is. I said, "you know, the charger provides different voltage levels at different times in the charging cycle...some smart chargers claim more than they deliver, and I'd like to know about this one so I can look into a replacement for serious boon docking". He proceeded to confidently inform me that this charger does all that, and beside's "it's a thousand dollar unit and Jayco uses the best so you'd never need to replace it". Truth is, it's a crappy converter, and is only a tiny fraction of $1,000.00. The good replacement I put in was 200 bucks.

The personality trait that these people seem to share is that they have no problem telling whoppers, because they really don't care if they get caught in a lie. That's the key to successful lying. An absence of conscience.

The best course for the buyer is to believe nothing the dealer says. The truth is only a few keystrokes away.

[bdreinv]

Me to from what I see on the road, I don't think dealers are asking to many questions. The ones we like are the front wheel drive SUV's pulling TT!

[bdreinv]

If there lips are moving its not true!

[curver900]

you don't need any more regulation..


Easy though for the sale a dealer is required to write down the GVRW of the TV (off the door jam tag picture of it even) and that of the trailer. Then show the math it works loaded to the max and it fits inside the TV GVRW tag. Then it is a binding contract...

[oldmanAZ]

AFAIK, there is nothing in writing from a dealer stating what tow vehicle a trailer owner will be using or should be using; that part is all verbal. I'm confident a dealer's attorney(s) would not agree to a buyer adding some kind of written stipulation in the purchase regarding the tow vehicle's capabilities etc. and the dealer's liability in case of an accident.

In court after an accident, attorney's may argue facts regarding tow vehicles and trailer weights etc. I doubt they will be trying to find fault with the dealer or the buyer's understanding of what the salesperson had said.

[Siamese]

It's pretty understandable, though. If you're the new salesman at a dealership, you'd better catch up to the other salesman, or you'll be gone.

Imagine that you're the guy that does the entire math process for each buyer. The other guy is handling a least two customers at a time on a busy Saturday, and you're dealing with just one. Gonna be bye bye for you.

Also, have you read enough threads on this forum to notice how many guys post, asking if their existing vehicle will tow the trailer they're considering? And, how resistant some of them are to dealing with the facts? As a practical consideration, why put yourself through it? If you really wanted to help them, and still keep your job, you could mow their lawn after work.

Or, the dealer could offer the service of properly matching tow vehicles to trailers. Next thing you know, they're selling smaller trailers as compared to their competitors, and possibly fewer of them. And, there just might be more legal liability for the dealer if the wrong choice is made.

[bankr63]

Originally Posted by bdreinv

Me to from what I see on the road, I don't think dealers are asking to many questions. The ones we like are the front wheel drive SUV's pulling TT!

Not sure why this is a problem. I'm quite happy with my FWD SUV towing my TT, and I am within all of the limits stated by the mfg. and validated at the CAT scale.

I think a reputable dealer has all the information they need to help you with the assessment found directly on the stickers affixed to the door jambs of your vehicle. A couple of extra questions about cargo, and a couple of minutes with a calculator would get you into the right sized TT. Unfortunately reputable dealers are very few and far between.

Maybe if someone followed your chain of logic and sued successfully, we would actually get a few more reputable dealers that we can rely on.

[SOMBATFAMILY]

What I want to know is how many TT accidents have been attributed to not enough truck vs owner over loading trailer, driver fail to pay full time and attention, mechanical malfunction or inexperienced driver.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bono]

Dealers are in the business of selling TT, not advising customers on the perfect TV + TT combos. Unless you have a contract with the dealer for providing an advice.

People need to use their brains. I spent hundreds of hours researching on different aspects of towing. I am comfortable with towing because I understand the mechanics. Towing is almost like science. Some just do not make an effort to understand it.

Originally Posted by stevegreen

(...)

You can say buyer should research, but a buyer has the right to rely on the expertise and representations of the seller/dealer.

(...)

[PlayersZ28]

Seems it's hard enough getting good service on an RV unit after the sale. I certainly wouldn't depend on them to know what the correct vehicle is for towing a particular unit. Somewhere in the process the buyer has to take a certain amount of responsibility for the selection and do their own research. If they can't do that then just buy a motorhome knowing the drivetrain & chassis can handle the weight. Of course then those same people would load in everything they could fit and complain about poor performance.

[bono]

Not sure, who you are referring to exactly, but Andy Thomson is often mentioned over AS forum. AFAIK, this is the one of the most knowledgeable people in America in relation to towing. His company is almost 50 years in business. Modified thousands of cars. He is advisor to SAE, car manufacturers and AirStream.

I know that many people are not capable of understanding this, but manufacturer recommendations are just good starting point to set up a good TV/TT combo. TV manufacturers cannot predict what the owners will be towing. The specs need to accommodate many variables.

Recently, he set up Camaro to tow 25 ft AirStream. Again, there was a lot of heat over AS forum from a few folks around why Camaro should not tow this trailer.

There is not much love for Andy from some, when he is saying that out of 9 towing combinations he drove last week new F250 & 30’ Classic was by far the least stable and likely the least safe (due to the suspension that was softened and the height was raised). The other combinations:

1 The Camaro & 25 Airstream
2 2014 Chrysler 300 & 28 Airstream
3 2016 Buick Enclave 23D Airstream
4 2012 Toyota Sienna 24’ Lance
5 2012 Toyota Sienna 23’ Vista Cruiser
6 2015 GM 1500 2008 30’ Classic
7 2007 Mercedes GL Imagine 28’
8 2015ish Dodge Caravan Surveyor 264

Originally Posted by Midnightmoon

(...)
There are even dealers that will "modify" vehicles to tow a larger trailer than what the manufacturers recommendations would be in order to make a sale. I'm not going to get in to the specifics of that one, but when I owned an Airstream and would participate in their forum, I would read of it all the time.

(...)

[stevegreen]

I appreciate the time everyone spent providing feedback!

1. If a dealer does not provide advice, works for me. You do your own research and you make your own decision.
2. If a dealer does tell you that your specific TV can tow the TT they are selling you - that is where I have a problem - it is lying/fraud.
3. I agree with one of the above posters (Thanks!) - it would be easy for them to simply take the ratings off the door of the TV and write them down side by side with the TT ratings for the prospective purchaser. I did see on another site that I was researching that the Lazy Days RV dealership does something like this (without being required to through regulation).

Unfortunately, I have not found (yet) any cases on the internet, involving dealers getting sued for lying, not sales talk, but lying (where I live this is fraud and you can be civilly liable).

If anyone else knows/sees something please post and I will post if I end up finding anything.

[PlayersZ28]

If a buyer doesn't understand TT/TV ratings what do they do when they switch TV's? Go to the RV dealer? Ask the TV dealer?

As far as the dealer lying about things... well I just do my own research whatever it is I'm buying. I'm sure the kid selling the television will be lying too (or at the least misinformed)

[stevegreen]

See post below from internet:

A dealership I know here in CA was sued in Small Claims Court for a broken set of springs on a customer's truck. Apparently, they bought a 30'+ 5er toy hauler and towed it with a 2500 Series truck.

The dealer (30+ years of experience) showed up in court and the judge heard the facts and found in favor of the claimant.

While the dealer has not instituted the waiver form for new buyers, he has stopped carrying toy haulers. He will only order one when a repeat customer wants one.

Funny thing is, I heard the dealer's tale after a long RV trip to Arizona. On the trip I saw a 38' Weekend Warrior 5er TH being pulled by a Dodge 2500 CTD. Grossly overweight, but the owner said it towed just fine.

[stevegreen]

See below a post from the internet:

Consumer Protection Lawyer: CalAttorney2
William B. Esq. :
Dear Customer, thank you for using our service. I would like to assist you today. Responses may have a short delay for review and research.
William B. Esq. :
The material misrepresentation by the dealer makes the contract "voidable" meaning that the injured party (the buyer) is entitled to reverse the contract, or to maintain the contract (at their option).
William B. Esq. :
I would recommend first starting with the dealership, see if they will resolve the matter to your satisfaction.
William B. Esq. :
If they do not work with you, try using the BBB (https://www.bbb.org/consumer-complai...nt/get-started), they offer no cost dispute resolution services for consumers.
William B. Esq. :
If this does not work, you can sue the dealership for breach of contract, and "fraud in the inducement". (Unfortunately for the amount in question (more than $10,000.00) you will need to sue in either limited civil (up to $25,000.00) or unlimited civil (for all other amounts)).
William B. Esq. :
You can also report the matter to the California Attorney General's Office, Consumer Protection division: http://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-c...ess-or-company. The AG investigates unlawful business conduct, and while they do not enforce individual rights (they do not get your money back for you), having an investigation can help leverage your position.





William,
I took the RV back to SWCoaches. Had a somewhat heated discussion with the owner. He accused me of not researching my trucks "pin weight" and I reminded him that the issue is material misrepresentation. Finally, he agreed to "refund my $" He told me to leave the RV and the paperwork, which I did. He said that he would process the refund as soon as the check cleared. He asks me to check with my bank and to send him an email on the status. I checked with the bank this morning and verified the check cleared. I sent an email this morning to the sales general manager confirming the check had cleared and that they could process my bank refund ($88,619) and CC deposit charge ($10,000) which they have the credit card info for. My only concerns are "what if" SWCoaches keeps some of my $ for; 1) charges for taking the unit from CA to AZ for out of state pickup, 2) anything they find wrong with the returned RV (which was unused and returned exactly as it was taken 3) ???
Currently, I have no paperwork from the purchase and no sign off on the accepting the RV back (we were too tired after driving there 5 hours and meeting for an hour and a half. Should I be concerned? I am just hoping that I get a full refund. I was also afraid to ask for any compensation for the $400 I spent picking up, weighing and then returning the RV. Thanks

[Crabman]

Well some salesman know very little about the products on thier lots, how can they know anything about our trucks...